Q&A: A question about the Beit Yishai claim that the Rabbi adopted
A question about the Beit Yishai claim that the Rabbi adopted
Question
You argue that the Torah obligates by virtue of the Jewish people having accepted it, and that if the Jewish people had not accepted it at Mount Sinai it would not have been binding.
But that is difficult, because it seems more reasonable that the Torah is binding whether we accept it or not; its authority comes only from above. The Holy One, blessed be He, decided that this is how one should act (according to the Torah), so why should it matter if we had not accepted it as an authority? It is the truth, period.
Where am I mistaken?
Thanks
Answer
I don’t see a question here. You are presenting two sides: either it is conditional on acceptance or it isn’t. You assume that I hold the acceptance thesis, but I’m not sure that I do. There is definitely logic to the other side as well, and Scripture also describes the mountain being held over them like a barrel, alongside acceptance.
Discussion on Answer
Statements disconnected from reality.
Those who observe Jewish law do not do so because there is an obligation from Mount Sinai.
Rather, out of fear or habit.
No one becomes Muslim because the majority are Muslim. Maybe the Muslims, for their part, seriously claim that they are the true religion because they are the majority.
Everyone invents for himself some argument for why he is religious. But it is very rare for someone to know or say the real reason, especially if he has no understanding of psychology.
An incorrect factual reasoning is not binding in any way. A halakhic interpretation can be binding if it was accepted in an authorized institution (the Sanhedrin).
As for obligation to Jewish law, each person is obligated to his own interpretation and to the authorized institutions (in his view). I may think he is mistaken, but as long as he acts accordingly he is inside the game.
Thanks for the answer, Michi.
Decisor, we are talking here about the definition of faith in itself: what is the source of the obligation to observe the commandments, not about psychological motives and conspiracies. By the way, observing commandments out of fear or fear of punishment does not negate the fact that one is afraid or in a state of fear of punishment because of the belief that the Torah is binding. Because if I do not think the Torah is binding, and that the Holy One, blessed be He, did not command the observance of commandments, why should I be afraid?
That is also true regarding habits. True, very often (that is, most religious or Haredi people, I assume) were born into religious or Haredi families, although I once heard the claim that most of Haredi society today is made up of returnees to religion, but I don’t know. In any case, there are also many people who were born into a secular education and became religious, and many people for whom the reverse is true: they were born into Haredi or religious education and became non-religious (or switched stream or religious belief, from Haredim to Religious Zionists or from Religious Zionists to Haredim, and those who became Conservative or Reform, and vice versa). So to say that everything boils down to and is determined 100 percent by education and habits, and that a person never has any free choice—if you’ll pardon me—is a bit pulled out of thin air. (Or maybe psychology can also tell us explicitly what kind of personality causes a person to hold religious belief.)
Can*
From Haredim*
You think you are talking about faith. You are talking about the religious person who actually observes Jewish law in practice. And the question is why. And you are talking about an invented reason that does not exist in the chain of causes of the religious person, not even through his parents (the chain was broken immediately at the beginning with the sin of the golden calf). You are not looking for the real reason, but for an invented one that will satisfy you.
The source of obligation is fear. (The fact that I wrote habit was just to make it easier to hear, and it is not a serious explanation. It is easy to change habits; religion is not easy to change.)
And in general, once you say obligation, you have said fear. There is no obligation without fear.
I was not talking at all about whether this is invalid or kosher. Only that this is the real reason. Truth is not found by considerations that stem from its conclusions, whether it sounds comfortable to you or not.
An explicit Mishnah: “Anyone whose wisdom precedes his fear of sin, his wisdom does not endure…”
Those who become religious certainly do not do so out of rational consideration, but in a time of deep crisis and a sharp sense of emptiness in life.
You apparently have never read Rabbi Michi’s trilogy, which is entirely rationalism. He of course explains what obligation stems from and clarifies faith in a rational way.
What the Rabbi has said many times is that Jewish law (the interpretation of the obligations in the Torah*) is binding by force of acceptance, even if the interpretations are mistaken (that is, even if they are based on a reasoning about reality that is not correct).
And in practice, since obligation to Jewish law can only be through the interpretation of the Oral Torah, a theoretical discussion about the Torah’s principled binding force is irrelevant for someone who does not accept the halakhic interpretation of Jewish law (unless you are following the Karaite/Samaritan approach, which is not what we are discussing).
That is always how I understood your words. Isn’t that so?