So we’ve reached the question: why don’t the Haredim set up companies that suit them 100 percent? If they need conditions tailored to their spiritual work, then let them tailor things one hundred percent. After all, even in the time of the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) there was a religious army among the Jewish people.
On the Hidabroot website I came across information answering why Haredim don’t serve in the army—one of the reasons given was that senior army officials don’t want Haredim in the army and oppose drafting them because they don’t want the army to turn into a repentance movement. Because if the senior army brass didn’t oppose it, that would imply that the Haredim would set up units that are 100 percent tailored. The question is how one can know that this information is reliable enough. If the army opposes drafting Haredim in principle, then that contradicts everything I knew about relations between the Haredim and the army.

There are Haredi / Hardal units adapted 💯% to a very strict Haredi lifestyle.
Whoever wants to serve the people can serve there.

Whoever wants not to serve submits a piece of paper saying he’s enrolled in some yeshiva and that he studies and Torah study is his vocation.
Of course, even if he’s a pizza delivery guy, he submits it; even if he desecrates the Sabbath, even if he’s just a criminal or a loafer, and no one asks him even what the address of the yeshiva is in whose name he submits the declaration—not even where the dining hall is, or what the names of the rabbis in the institution are, or maybe what tractate is being studied there right now.

Nothing, nothing.
Needless to say, the institution (yeshiva) that gives him this paper gets many hundreds of shekels every month from the State of Israel simply for the fact that he is registered there.
That’s from the Ministry of Religious Services.
But there are many other state bodies that give money to this joke.
For example, the Committee for Bequests and all sorts of others.

Hello Rabbi,
I heard a somewhat different claim from some Haredi kollel head. He argued as follows: ostensibly, if they were to establish companies and educational institutions truly suited to the Haredi lifestyle, there would be no fear of people being corrupted, because it would be in total separation from the secular public. The reason they don’t establish them is the fear that many would be drawn after those tracks, and then there would not be enough Torah scholars whose Torah study is their vocation, as happens in the Religious Zionist public. That’s the claim.
What does the Rabbi think about this claim?
Are there facts that refute it?

Their fear is not only of secular people but of secularity. Any encounter with general education and life outside, even if it is conducted according to Haredi standards, threatens them. That is clear.
The idea that there won’t be enough Torah learners is nonsense, of course. There are enough, far too many. Their fear is that people will leave Haredi society (and also religious commitment altogether).

53% of Haredi men work. Isn’t that called encountering life outside? Why do they have a greater fear when it comes to education?

I didn’t understand why the Haredim fear military service even if life in the army is conducted one hundred percent according to the spirit of the Torah. What fear of secularity is there in an army conducted 100 percent according to Torah conditions? I’m not saying they need to study core curriculum subjects in order to enlist. I’m saying that a Haredi who enlists also engages in Torah and mainly in other matters in the army, but not in order to study core curriculum subjects. The question returns again: if the lifestyle in the army is adapted to Haredim one hundred percent, then seemingly it’s not fair to say, “We fear secularity.” Also, in the period of the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) there was an army. I’m asking out of lack of knowledge; for now I’m not accepting the claim that the Haredim “fear” secularity and that’s why they don’t enlist. What would they do if there were no secular people in the Land of Israel who enlist and protect against terrorist attacks? After all, in principle, if the Haredim are without an army, it’s impossible to maintain security properly. In principle, you can’t say in this case that one should rely on a miracle that there won’t be attacks without defense. If there’s an answer that makes this make sense, I’d be glad to hear it.

The question of why they don’t go to the army is divided into 3 questions (at least):
1. Why does an individual Haredi not serve in the army?
2. Why don’t rabbis/operatives arrange a Haredi Nahal that will be completely Haredi (unlike today) for a Haredi group?
3. Why don’t all the Haredim organize themselves and arrange a group in the army that all Haredim will go to?
Answers:
1. Because he fears a decline in his spiritual level, and rightly so.
2. Because a few rabbis cannot control what happens in a Haredi group in the army, and it is clear that the much greater interest of bodies far stronger than those rabbis (- to change Haredi identity) will prevail when they are in the army.
3. If all the Haredi rabbis/operatives were to unite for this purpose, they could impose a Haredi lifestyle on a group in the army (Heaven forbid…). Except that:
1. The army is not interested in such a situation.
2. Some Haredim are not interested, because of the value of Torah / lack of motivation to share the burden / the value of limiting oneself, and there is much more to say.
Of course these are things said “under the table.”

The moment they do army service, the way to employment and education is open before them. And the fact that 53% work is not necessarily in places where there is interaction with secular people, and it begins at a later age and without studies and when there is already a family. That is, the young man is already closed and signed off, and everything is fine.

Rabbi, what do you mean that there are enough Torah learners—how is that measured? They’ll tell you there aren’t enough; you need a thousand below and a thousand below.

The way to measure this is complicated and not unequivocal. But the minimum criterion is that only those suited to it should study. If there are learners who are not suited to it, then it is too many. Even if only those suited to it are studying, we must examine whether some of them are not better suited to other directions. And even if not, after that we must examine whether the economy does not need some of them in other fields, and in certain situations there is definitely room to send some of them to a different career.

Rabbi, thank you for the response.
I’m left with three more questions:
1. The claim of that kollel head is that even those better suited to Torah study will be drawn after the other tracks. What would you answer him?
2. Maimonides says that one must distance oneself from bad company so as not to be influenced by them, because that is human nature—to the point of going to the desert if there is no alternative. I heard in the name of the Hazon Ish that he said that today’s desert is the yeshivot. In light of these statements, is it not legitimate that the Haredim do not want to be in the company of secular people so as not to be influenced by them?

1. You do not build a state on “lest one be drawn after it.” Maybe it’s true, but it’s a risk that must be taken. The price of the opposite is too great.
2. Everything is legitimate. They just have to fund themselves and not become a burden on the public. Whoever wants to build a society of monks, good for him, on his own dime. In my view it is also not right to build such a society, because the Torah was not given to ministering angels. But that is another debate.

If you could expand on this, I’d be happy.
Why, in your view, is it not right to establish such a society?
What does “the Torah was not given to ministering angels” mean?

My views are spelled out in many places here on the site and elsewhere. The Torah is supposed to be lived within a healthy and diverse society, not in a society of monks. We do not have monasteries or monks. The dangers of such healthy living are that there may be more failures, but that is the meaning of bringing the Torah down to the ground of this world. And that is my use of the phrase “the Torah was not given to ministering angels” in this context.
The Torah deals with charity, with running a society, and with agriculture and all the other aspects of the world. A society of monk-scholars has no connection to the world and all those aspects.

Hello. Regarding what you said—that military service itself opens additional possibilities of employment and education, and the fear created by that is that there will be a sharp and rapid decline in Torah learners—can those possibilities be blocked completely? And just direct everything in the best possible way?

I didn’t understand the question.

What I meant to say was, quoting your words, that the Haredi establishment does not want there to be an open path for Haredim to tracks like education and secular employment during military service, also so that there won’t be a sharp drop in the number of Torah learners. My question is: is it possible to completely prevent any opening to education and employment during military service for Haredim, and then the Haredim would no longer have the claim that secularity might take over them?

I don’t know. I’m not an organizational consultant.