חדש באתר: NotebookLM עם כל תכני הרב מיכאל אברהם

The Kite Pursuers — Between Right and Left (Column 151)

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Originally published:
This is an English translation (via GPT-5.4). Read the original Hebrew version.

With God’s help

On Wednesday of last week a dispute between two cabinet members was published regarding striking those who launch explosive and incendiary kites. Yoav Gallant argued that there is no justification or possibility for harming eight-year-old children who launch such kites. In his view this is both cruel and ineffective. This was repeated by the former head of the Shin Bet, Yaakov Peri, in an interview I heard the following day on the radio. By contrast, it was said there, Naftali Bennett expressed an emphatic position in the opposite direction. He argues that these are not eight-year-old children (I did not understand whether he meant this as a factual claim—that these are not children—or a normative one—that these children are not innocent), and that these kites are not children’s toys but instruments of killing, and therefore they should be treated as terrorists in every respect and shot in order to kill.

Once Again on Spurious Correlations

In the remarks of Gallant and Peri, two types of argument arose: inefficiency (Hamas are just looking for this) and immorality (it is cruel). I thought to myself that once again this was a moral-tactical dispute that, for some reason, is divided between right and left. Although we have already grown used to it, this is really not a necessary division. An answer to a moral-tactical question ought not to be connected to hawkish or dovish political positions. But the fact is that it is divided that way, or at least there is a clear correlation (Gallant is not a man of the left, and indeed the focus of his remarks was effectiveness rather than morality). Those who hold a left-wing political position oppose harming the kite-launching children, and those on the right support it. I venture to estimate that right-wingers who oppose it (there are such people, like Bibi and Lieberman) probably oppose it because of international repercussions (considerations of utility) and not because of moral considerations. Why, really, did this correlation arise? Why do we not find people on the right who oppose it on moral grounds and people on the left who support it and do not see it as a moral problem?

In Column 5 I discussed the foundations of the dispute over targeted killings, and argued that there is indeed a logic to the fact that it is waged between right and left. I showed there that at bottom this is an ontic dispute regarding the existence of collective entities (whether a public is an actually existing entity, or whether this is a fiction and what exists is only the individuals who make up the collective). Here there is a similar dispute, but nevertheless a different one. I will try to show here that the ontic component in this dispute is marginal, and that its main element is really a lack of thought.

The Absence of Discussion on the Matter Itself

It is worth noting that here too, as in most cases, there is no real discussion of the question itself. One declares this and another declares that, and there are no arguments. For one person it simply is not done to harm them (cruelty), and for the other it simply is not done not to harm them (a pursuer; if someone is shooting at you, you kill him). For one person it is “proportionate,” and for another it is “disproportionate.” But it is impossible to conduct a discussion when neither side gives arguments. Each one plucks at the strings of his counterpart’s emotion or fear and tosses out a general declaration (cruelty; they are shooting at you) without success, and that is all. This discourse consists mainly of flinging emotions around (How can you preach harming an eight-year-old child?! It would never occur to me to harm eight-year-old children! etc.) and not arguments. Therefore, before I address this correlation, I will try to enter a bit into the discussion itself, because this too will cast additional light on the correlation. But first, one more preliminary remark.

Is There a Jewish Morality?

This discussion prompted reflections in me on another interesting aspect. I repeatedly argue that there is no such thing as Jewish morality. There is Jewish law unique to Jews and Judaism, and it binds only them. But morality, in its essence, is universal, and therefore it is valid and binding for all human beings in the same way and according to the same rules. My claim is that any norm that addresses Jews and Gentiles differently cannot belong to morality (but rather to Jewish law or to something else).

And yet, in our topic it seems that the dispute is indeed related to the question of Judaism. The clear feeling is that the closer a person is to Jewish law, the more he will tend to justify harming the kite-launching children, and the more universalist he is, the more he will tend to forbid it. Of course, our universalists will always say that this is the Jewish morality that forbids harming the innocent (they also say that their Judaism is the morality of the prophets, that is, universal morality, democracy, the rule of law, the attitude to the stranger and the foreigner and the weak, the pride parade, support for Eritreans and abortions, women serving in the army, and the rest of the fashionable slogans), but it is obvious to everyone that this is empty nonsense. This is what morality requires in their view, and it is clear that even if the Torah said nothing about any of it, this is what they would think. The appeal to Judaism (even in cases where you can find such a connection) is empty lip service.

This raises the question whether what we really have here is Jewish morality versus universal morality. Is there, after all, such a creature as “Jewish morality,” distinct from universal morality? I think this is a mistaken inference. I am not claiming that there are no differences between the moral positions of Jews and of others (although even that is fairly true). That is an empirical question, and if you look you will see that there are differences (or at least correlations between moral positions and Jewish-halakhic commitment). The question is whether the rules of morality are Jewish in the sense that they are true for Jews and not for others. What I claim is that even if I have a moral position hewn from Jewish sources (and I am not sure that I do), it is supposed to apply to all human beings. In my view, whoever thinks otherwise is mistaken. Moreover, I claim that even without the Torah, if he had thought correctly, he should have arrived at that moral conclusion, and I really can ground my claims in general reasoning (and if not, then usually my Jewish interpretation would also change).[1]

Moreover, my claim is that a moral position is not based on Jewish sources, the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh), or halakhic decisors. If I think that X is moral, I will interpret the verses of the Hebrew Bible accordingly (the halakhic sources I do not need to interpret, because in my opinion they do not speak about morality but about Jewish law). I do not deny that my moral thinking is nourished by Jewish law and by my learning, for a person is shaped by the landscape of his birthplace. But this is a matter of unconscious influence, as is the case with each of us. In the end, a verse or a legal rule will, for me, in most cases, not constitute a moral argument (but at most a halakhic one).

Therefore, in the issue of the kite-launching children as well, I will not bring verses and halakhic sources here as sources of authority, for several reasons. First, because the state does not conduct itself according to Jewish law. Second, because this discussion and dispute belong to the moral domain and not the halakhic one, and as such they ought to be conducted on the moral-universal plane. My resort here to halakhic sources and terms will be only for the sake of the moral discussion; that is, for our discussion these will not be authoritative sources but sources of inspiration. As we shall see, the halakhic discussion here runs completely parallel to a moral discussion that could have taken place anywhere in the world.

The Two Poles and the Framework of the Discussion: the Law of the “Pursuer” and Saving Oneself at the Cost of Another’s Life[2]

The discussion of these issues is conducted between two principled poles. The first pole is the prohibition on one person murdering another, even to save himself at the cost of another’s life. If Reuven threatens Shimon and demands that he kill Levi, Shimon may not submit. He must die rather than kill Levi, and this is the rule of he must be killed rather than transgress with respect to murder. At the basis of this rule lies a logical intuition: Who is to say that your blood is redder? Perhaps that man’s blood is redder!, that is, Shimon’s blood is no redder than Levi’s blood, and therefore he may not take Levi’s life in order to save his own. It is no accident that this is a logical intuition and not a verse. It seems to me that this is accepted in most legal and moral systems in the world. There are differences (including in Jewish law) regarding the punishment due to someone who transgressed and did this, but as far as I know the prohibition itself is agreed upon.

By contrast, there is the other pole, the law of the “pursuer.” When Reuven is pursuing Shimon in order to kill him, Levi may (indeed is obligated to) kill the pursuing Reuven in order to save Shimon. For this rule, unlike the previous one, sources are indeed brought (see, for example, Maimonides, Laws of Murder 1:8 and elsewhere), but it is quite clear that it too is based primarily on logical intuition. Therefore every legal system in the world has such a rule as well, although they do not require verses.

Why can the pursuer not claim against the rescuer that he may not kill him because the blood of the pursued is no redder than his own? Moral intuition says that there is no such claim, because the one who created the situation must bear the consequence and pay the price to resolve it. When the person who will be harmed is a third party, there is no permission to harm him in order to save oneself or to save another (this is saving oneself at the cost of another’s life, or he must be killed rather than transgress with respect to murder). But if harm to an involved party is required—namely, the one responsible for creating the situation—it is permitted and obligatory to do so.[3]

The discussion of all ethical questions in these areas is conducted between these two poles: every act of killing that is not justified by the law of the pursuer falls under the prohibition of murder. This includes saving oneself at the cost of another’s life, because once you have no permission to kill you are immediately judged as a murderer. Only pursuit justifies an exception or qualification to the prohibition of murder, and therefore this is the framework within which the discussion is conducted.

You have surely noticed that it was important for me to show that the entire discussion, at both of its poles, takes place on the moral plane. The sources and halakhic terminology are only for illustration, and the fact is that the two foundations of the discussion—the law of the pursuer, and the law of murder and of saving oneself at the cost of another’s life—are accepted by almost all human beings. On this particular topic it seems that there is no difference between Jewish law and morality (perhaps this is a moral fragment that entered into Jewish law, because Jewish law had nothing to add beyond morality. It is a halakhic lacuna that was filled by moral rules).[4]

The Nature of the Law of the “Pursuer”

At first glance, the law of the pursuer is grounded in the duty to prevent a crime and protect an innocent person. But some commentators see in it a punitive dimension as well (see, for example, Afikei Yam, vol. 2, sec. 40). Thus, for example, the Talmud (Bava Kamma 117b) says that if a pursuer broke vessels during his pursuit, he is exempt from paying for them because he is liable to death (under the law of the “pursuer”), and one who is liable to death does not also incur liability for monetary damages (he is subject only to the graver of the two penalties). From here we see that the permission to kill the pursuer also contains a punitive dimension.

Admittedly, this is a halakhic principle, but it seems to me that it has a basis in moral thought as well. The idea is that the pursuer, by the very fact that he intends to kill the pursued, is in principle a murderer, and a murderer is liable to death. Except that apparently we ought to wait until he actually murders and thereby becomes liable to death. But of course there is no logic in that, because then the pursued will also pay with his life. Therefore Jewish law (and morality) tells us to anticipate matters and kill him already now, before the murder. We give him the punishment in advance so that only he will die and at least the pursued will be saved. Even in a legal system that does not impose the death penalty on a murderer, there is still a logic that says that although it is not right to punish one person in order to save another, if his act warrants punishment, there is a logic to advancing the punishment and even intensifying it in order to save the life of the pursued. If the pursued is about to lose his life, then it is justified even to impose a “death penalty” on the pursuer in order to save the pursued. That is, there is a logic in seeing a punitive dimension in the law of the “pursuer” beyond the duty of rescue.

Rashi in Sanhedrin, by contrast, argues that the pursuer should be killed because by killing him we also save him from a transgression (it is done for his own good as well). When it is written that one may to save him even at the cost of his life, the intention is to save the pursuer, not the pursued. In the background of this lies once again the question of what permission there is to kill Reuven in order to save Shimon (even though Reuven is a pursuer). To this he explains that it is not done only for Shimon’s sake but also for Reuven’s own sake. It follows by implication that were there no benefit here to Reuven himself, there would be no permission to kill him in order to save Shimon (because his blood is no redder than Reuven’s). This is an argument that arises from the same difficulty, but it is formulated more subtly. Rashi is not speaking about punishing the pursuer but about saving him from transgression.

An Implication: a Minor as a “Pursuer”

From here we can understand the dispute of the Amoraim regarding a minor “pursuer.” The Talmud in Sanhedrin 72b states that even with a minor who is pursuing, he is saved even at the cost of his life—that is, it is permitted and obligatory to kill him. This is also how all the halakhic decisors rule. What is novel about this? Clearly, in the background lies the punitive conception of the pursuer. A minor is not legally liable and his transgression is not a transgression, and therefore there was room to argue that one should not kill him in order to save the pursued. Notice that the two arguments we saw above do not exist in the case of a minor. He is not liable to punishment for his deeds, and his act of murder is not a transgression either (for he is not yet obligated in the commandments). Therefore, with respect to him there is room to say that there is no permission to kill him in order to save the pursued (and he himself is not being saved from anything). And yet the Talmud teaches—and as noted, so too it is ruled in Jewish law—that the law of the pursuer applies to him as well. The same is of course true of a mentally incompetent person who is pursuing.

At first glance, this means that in the law of the pursuer there is no punitive dimension, only a preventive one. Alternatively, it may be that in the case of an adult pursuer both dimensions exist, but in the case of a minor only the preventive dimension exists, and that suffices to justify killing him (it may be that when the minor pursuer breaks vessels in the course of his pursuit he will not be exempt from paying for them when he grows up). This can be explained as follows: the pursuer (at least if he is a minor or mentally incompetent) created a situation that is dangerous to a certain person. Now there are two possibilities—not to harm him, and that person will die; or to harm him so that he will die and the other person will live. Since the pursuer (even if he is a minor or mentally incompetent) created the situation, he must bear the consequence. Although the minor or the mentally incompetent person is not guilty, it is permitted, and perhaps necessary, to kill them, because their fate brought it about. They are the source of the problem, and therefore they must bear the consequence and pay the price required for its resolution. And from another angle: true, they are not guilty, but the pursued certainly is no more guilty than they are, so why should he bear the consequence and pay the price?!

But a third possibility is also conceivable. Perhaps even in the case of a minor pursuer there is a punitive dimension in addition to the preventive one. It may be that a murder committed by a minor is indeed a transgression, except that he is exempt from punishment,[5] and therefore the law of the pursuer applies to him as well.

Back to the Current Dispute

It is important to understand that the claim that even with respect to a minor or a mentally incompetent person there is permission to harm in a situation of pursuit is also not unique to Jewish law. Everyone understands that if a small child or a mentally incompetent person (someone seized by a murderous frenzy) is holding a weapon and shooting at people in the street, it is permitted and obligatory for us to kill him. Why, after all? He is not responsible for his actions and no punishment applies to him. The reason is that there is here the preventive side, and as we saw above perhaps also the criminal side (except that he is exempt from punishment because he is acting under compulsion).

If so, the claim of Gallant and those who agree with him seems on its face unfounded. If launching incendiary and explosive kites is not pursuit, then it is also forbidden to kill an adult who does so. And if it is indeed defined as a situation of pursuit, then it is permitted to kill even a minor who does it. From where, then, does the claim suddenly arise that these are minors and therefore there is no justification for killing them?

A Non-Halakhic Perspective

I will say in advance that, in my impression, the punitive conception of the law of the pursuer is not purely halakhic; that is, it has a place in general moral conceptions as well. It seems to me that from here arises the claim of Gallant and those who share his opinion that the minors who launch kites should not be harmed, although by implication it is clear that they agree that in the case of adults in such a situation we could, and perhaps also should, harm them. I have already remarked that this is apparently a problematic opinion, for if such a situation is not within the category of pursuit, then it would be forbidden to kill even adults who launch kites; and if it is pursuit, why not kill minors?

According to the principle of charity, I will allow myself to be generous toward those who argue this way, and assume that some coherent doctrine underlies their remarks. Perhaps they think that this is a case of doubtful pursuit (because in all the cases until now the kites have not taken lives), and in such a situation there is room to distinguish between an adult who acts out of his mature and considered judgment, and a minor who is not responsible for his actions. The adult who does this is responsible for his actions, and therefore there is justification for harming him even in a situation of doubtful danger, because there is here a punitive dimension. In the formulation from above: if he made a decision to endanger me, then he is the one who must bear the consequences and pay the price in order to solve the problem. Even if the risk he created is not yet certain, there is no justification for my taking the risk because of his decision. Let him bear the consequences, for he could have chosen not to create this situation. By contrast, a minor who does such a thing does not do it out of mature judgment (he has no criminal responsibility). Therefore, although even in the case of a minor the law of the pursuer exists (at least in the preventive sense), so long as he is not directly and certainly endangering life there is no justification for harming him solely on preventive grounds (because it is not certain that prevention is what is at issue). Responsibility falls on him only where he creates a certain danger, and then he must bear the price (even without criminal responsibility; his fate brought it about).[6]

What is the basis behind these things? This position clearly reflects a conception according to which pursuit has a punitive dimension and not only a preventive one. Therefore, when the “pursuit” creates only a doubtful danger (a rather remote doubt), without the punitive dimension there is no justification for harming the “pursuer.” But in the case of an adult there is also a punitive dimension, and therefore there is justification for harming him even in a situation of doubtful risk. Notice that this claim arises out of general moral considerations, without any connection to Jewish law. This is exactly what I said: even in general morality there are roots for the conception that the law of the pursuer has a punitive dimension as well.

Conclusions

First, I freely admit that when I began writing this post I intended to present the position of Gallant and his associates as complete nonsense. There is no considered judgment and no coherent doctrine here, because it is impossible to justify a prohibition on killing a minor pursuer, and if there is no pursuit here then there is no permission to kill adult kite-launchers either. But in the course of writing it became clear to me that this is not such great nonsense after all.

At the end of the day I still support Bennett’s position, since in my view we are not dealing here with the pursuit of a single individual, in which case there might perhaps be room for the considerations I presented above, but with a social phenomenon of the Palestinian collective (part of it directly and part of it through indirect support). In such a situation other considerations apply, and there is certainly justification—and it is proper—to kill every kite-launcher, even if the danger to life is doubtful. Moreover, there is in such killing and in such an aggressive policy an element of preventing future kite warfare and preventing future killing of Jews and Arab kite-launchers alike (policy considerations). Beyond this, in my view even pursuit of property justifies killing (see here), and that certainly exists here.

It is precisely the fact that I partially changed my mind that strengthened my claim that our public discourse is conducted in an absurd and superficial way. Each side recruits all the arguments to its own side and is unwilling to consider a complex position with reasons for and against, and only then arrive at a bottom line. Beyond that, the discussion is conducted with instinctive and emotional belligerence rather than on the basis of systematic reasoning. At most one hears general and vague arguments like “yes, proportionate” or “not proportionate,” “they are murderers” or “they are eight-year-old children, and this is cruelty,” without grounding them in orderly considerations.

No wonder these disputes very quickly move into emotional territory. One side is a beautiful-soul leftist who loves Arabs, or at best an inconsistent idiot, and the other is a fascist nationalist and a child murderer. Each sees his opponent as an irrational sentimentalist, since neither of them uses arguments. If the discussion is conducted on the basis of arguments, each side understands the other’s arguments and perhaps even takes them into account and changes or moderates his position (Heaven forfend). Thus a question of morality and of life-and-death judgment becomes a dispute between right and left, although there is not much connection between those two planes of discussion (see above). When there are no arguments, decisions are handed over to basic sentiment (= primordial, primitive sentiment). This is the connection between the two questions presented at the beginning of the column: the absence of substantive considerations in the dispute is precisely the reason that the battle lines run, in simplistic fashion, between right and left.[7]

One must understand that conducting the dispute in this way is not only a matter of manners and etiquette. The decisions that are reached in a measured and thoughtful way are expected to be more correct and better; the other positions will be more understandable to both sides, and therefore our attitude toward those who hold these positions can and should also be different. These are no longer people swept away by nationalist-fascist emotion and child killers, and those are not Arab-lovers (Heaven forfend) and traitorous haters of Israel. Sometimes we forget that substantive argument is also an option. As stated, I myself intended here to write a venomous post at the expense of the position of Gallant and his colleagues, and in the course of laying things out I found myself understanding their position better (though I do not agree with it).[8]

And one final remark. Clearly, after setting the conceptual and theoretical frameworks, there is still room for more general and amorphous considerations (such as considerations of proportionality). The theoretical discussion defines the framework but does not replace the need for the judgment of moral intuition and conscience; rather, it now takes place within that framework. Thus, for example, even if we reach the conclusion that launching such kites is pursuit, it still would not be reasonable to kill a thousand people in order to hit one kite-launcher who endangers property and, with only a slight chance, human life as well. That is a consideration of proportionality that does not derive from the theoretical framework, but it certainly has an important place in the final decision. The advantage of the framework of discussion I have outlined here is that considerations of proportionality receive their place within the framework and do not become the whole picture. In this way one can use them more thoughtfully and reasonably, understand one another’s position, and avoid being dragged into emotional, biased, and irrational positions and judgments.

[1] This of course does not mean that I am necessarily right. I can make mistakes in moral reasoning like in any other kind of reasoning. But as long as, in my view, X is immoral, then as far as I am concerned this binds all human beings, and whoever thinks otherwise is mistaken. If it becomes clear to me that I was mistaken—I will retract. But then my morality will again be universal and binding on all human beings, and anyone who says otherwise will be mistaken.

[2] See also my discussion of this in Column 5.

[3] There are several explanations for this among the medieval authorities (Rishonim) and later authorities (Acharonim), but this is not the place.

[4] There are such things, like coercion to avoid the trait of Sodom and the like. It is clear that if “religious” Jewish law has nothing to say in a certain domain, there is room to fill the lacuna with moral considerations. After the sages do this, it enters the framework of Jewish law like any enactment or decree.

[5] And perhaps he falls into the category of those liable to capital punishment for inadvertent acts, or even beyond that, regarding whom the rule of he is subject only to the graver of the two penalties is also stated (see Bava Kamma 35a and elsewhere). The Talmud itself there in Sanhedrin connects the discussion to a pursuer who acts inadvertently (for example, without warning).

[6] There is room for the reasoning that even at a 50% risk the minor should bear the price, for the potential victim certainly need not bear it more than he does. But with a remote risk like the one under discussion, there is a logic to saying that there is no justification for killing a minor.

[7] At the beginning of the column I mentioned what I wrote regarding targeted killings in Column 5, where I showed that between right and left there is an ontic dispute. Something of that also plays a part in the present case, but I will not enter into it here.

[8] I am of course not claiming that they really made all these considerations and thus arrived at their position. Probably that is not the case, and that is unfortunate. If they had formulated their position in this way, perhaps they too could have changed it, or at least presented it in a more reasonable and thoughtful way and improved our public discourse.

Discussion

Eilon (2018-06-24)

It is not relevant to apply the principle of charity to Galant and his friends. He really is foolish and emotional. The principle of charity (similar to what the rabbi wrote in the article about the buzzard itself) applies only when there is doubt (stemming from insufficient familiarity with the person) regarding the intention behind what was said. Here (at least for me) there is no doubt that he is an emotional and populist person, like 95 percent of the politicians and generals in our districts. (The other 5% are because of my own principle of charity.) There is no chance in the world that the explanation the rabbi gives for his words (to distinguish between an adult and a child) is actually what is in his mind. The issue of the kites is a very simple one and does not require too many moral discussions. Part of the complexity of the world is that it is not always complex (otherwise there would be one simple thing in the world – the fact that it is complex). That is, there are things that are simple, and this is one of them. The left, in the name of its complexity, misses this point, and it makes reality simplistic in the name of complexity itself.

Eilon (2018-06-24)

And the conclusion from this, of course, is that the rabbi himself sinned with this very simplism. To begin with, he should not have written a venomous post (the rabbi is tough on the weak), but even more than that, he should not have offered an ipcha מסתברא regarding this intention. There are not two sides here, of Arab-lovers and traitors versus nationalists and child-murderers (as though murdering adults is fine). There are emotional people, and that is all. Israel’s leadership is irresponsible, period. As the rabbi said, this is simply a failure to understand that there is a war here with a collective. In fact, the appropriate response would be to burn fields among the Gazans themselves (not surgical fire), and with many times the intensity, in the dosage required in order to stop the phenomenon.

And the proof of this is that if some family were to wage war against Galant’s family, or the family of any other leftist with a family (and even if there were family members in it who did not cooperate actively but did cooperate passively – meaning they did not bother to pick up their feet and flee from their family but continued to support it financially, say), all this talk about innocents would fly into the air and he would fight like the last of the mafiosi. And therefore the reason he speaks the way he does is that in his subconscious (liba le-fuma lo galya), the damage caused by the phenomenon simply does not touch him. It is a problem for the residents of Gaza. Which is what I said: the current leaders are irresponsible. Given the tricks and efforts that every average minister and general invests in preserving his seat, I can only imagine what would happen if there were a threat to his property or to his life and the lives of his family members. (Unless he also does not care about them—or even about his own body—in which case the situation is extremely grave, and then one could indeed speak of extreme indifference.)

Y.D. (2018-06-24)

There is also the problem that the children are being used as a manipulative tool by Hamas against Israel (it seems to me the rabbi hinted at this at the end of his remarks).

Eilon (2018-06-24)

And if we are already discussing right and left, then the thing the rabbi of course does not declare is that the truth is the middle—not the middle of the Third Way party, which is left-wing, but a true middle of mercy (from the triad of kindness, judgment, mercy, or of childhood, adolescence, adulthood), which is 80% right and 20% left. That is, a critical right. Mature.

And the rabbi himself fell in this article into exactly the two extremes. He wanted to open with the stage of venomousness, which is the stage of the right-wing bully, and moved on to the stage of the typical Tel Aviv high-schooler who discovered that the Arabs (embodied by Galant and his friends) are human beings, and is all full of sugary sweetness over this discovery and becomes a flower child, smoking drugs, a hippie growing long hair, a soldier in the army for promoting peace on behalf of Chamberlain and the Beatles.

The middle reality is that, much as I am ashamed to say it, Galant and his friends are part of the organism to which I belong (what people call “my brothers.” And my ears are burning right now from what I wrote), and therefore I have responsibility toward them; that is, if something bad happens to them, then something bad also happens to me (and in fact at that very moment something bad has already happened to me, in the sense that the hand also suffers when the foot is injured. The pain is collective to the whole body. But even at the individual level, if the source of the pain is not treated—say, an injury to the leg—then at some point even the specific cells in the tissues of the hand will suffer from the infection that spreads through the body from the leg.)
But that of course does not mean that he has an opinion (he is like a little brother, a child), and one should not turn this into a discussion between equals when he is not. (Of course Naftali Bennett is no more mature. But from the rabbi I do expect such maturity, and not this kind of emotional, excitable discussion.)

I am sorry for the decisiveness of my words, and I know the rabbi does not like decisiveness, but like that paranoid person whom people sometimes really are after, sometimes the person who is decisive simply understands the depth of the matter, while the other side does not understand the implications of its words and actions, and those in turn are critical, as in this case. (For example, a doctor who urgently instructs a patient to go to the hospital because of a mild chest pain.)

Daniel (2018-06-24)

That is how politics in Israel (and in the world בכלל) is today.
The arguments released to the media were not intended in the first place to present an orderly idea and doctrine, but to work on emotion, like advertisements.
Because if they trigger emotion—for example, against killing the kite-flyers—public pressure in Israel or abroad will prevent the politicians from acting in that direction, even if in their opinion that would have been morally proper (because the political price would be too heavy).
By contrast, if they present rational arguments, media consumers will get bored, at most nod in agreement and move on, and the politicians will keep doing their own thing.
Always, in every field and in every case, the goal of politicians and the media is only emotional manipulation.
After all, the advertising world rolls in billions this way, so the media and politics operate this way as well.

Yaakov M. (2018-06-24)

You assume that everyone agrees that the framework of the discussion is within the law of the pursuer, and then you try to explain away Galant’s position in a forced manner.
According to a leftist like Leibowitz z”l, for example, who sees the Palestinians as dispossessed and humiliated people who are paying with their lives precisely because of Israeli policy, he does not see them as pursuers but as freedom fighters.
Were the Jewish underground fighters who blew up the King David Hotel pursuers?
The law of the pursuer exists only when there is no justification for the pursuit; the Palestinian justifies his pursuit, the right-winger does not accept the Palestinian justification (as Bennett said, “I am not from the UN”), and therefore his status as a pursuer remains intact.
The left-winger accepts at least part of the Palestinian justification, and therefore does not see him as a pursuer (cf. Ehud Barak, who said that if he were a Palestinian he would do the same as they do).
It seems more that the discussion is taking place on a more principled plane: how much justice there is, if any, in the Palestinian claim.

Tair (2018-06-24)

I agree with you. Another reason for the shallowness of political discourse today, in my opinion, lies in our system of government, namely representative democracy. If a person comes along and starts speaking and writing in depth – no one will elect him. People want to hear in one sentence what you are, and for it to be as unequivocal as possible; otherwise it does not count.
In addition, without meaning to sound condescending, I also think that a considerable part of the population would not even *understand* this kind of discourse from politicians. “A universal moral argument?” That is a language many people do not speak. Therefore, in my opinion, many more years of hollow poster-like leaders await us.

mikyab123 (2018-06-25)

There is no connection at all between the arguments. There is wall-to-wall agreement that one should kill an adult terrorist or a child who threatens us. So where is the recognition of justice?
Beyond that, the main Zionist left does not see things this way. It speaks mainly in terms of pragmatics. I am not referring here to media outlets and Palestinian propaganda mouthpieces in the style of “Haaretz” and other lunatics like them.

Hebroner (2018-06-25)

Similar to what the rabbi himself noted, this is a situation on a spectrum. The danger is uncertain, and the responsibility of minors for their actions is also not completely clear. In addition, I don’t think generals and pilots want to kill children. They simply don’t. As it is written, “And He will give you mercy and have compassion upon you.” Perhaps this is killing that can be justified, but it plants cruelty.
One more general remark – it is very hard to conduct a discussion with substantive first-order arguments. It is harder to conduct a discussion with substantive responses. It is harder still to conduct a discussion with substantive responses to responses, and so on. Certainly members of Knesset (who will conduct it? the Likud’s third ten?) and certainly on the radio (who will conduct it? Berko and Ofira?). The truth is that almost everyone finds it difficult to conduct such a discussion.
You cannot exclude almost all of humanity from discussions about its own conduct. You cannot pull all the substantive professors (how many such are there?) out of the universities to conduct the discussions.
Therefore, I more or less accept the fact that most discussions are based on intuition. That means that (in his experience) doing such-and-such does not help. The other answers him that it does not seem right to him. The radio listener hears the third person and it seems to him as it seems to him, and so on. I don’t think that is invalid.

Michi (2018-06-25)

All right, so at least they will hear me too in this polyphony. Whoever is persuaded will be persuaded. And whoever succumbs to this shallowness and superficiality – let him succumb.

Moshe G (2018-06-25)

There are certain areas in which one can speak of a Jewish ethics of warfare. For example, the Torah permits a siege despite the certain harm to the city’s inhabitants (one can push this off and say that this is only for periods when that is the accepted practice, as is said regarding the beautiful captive woman; but at least it is not absolutely immoral)

Daniel (2018-06-25)

Moshe, G. But a siege is also permitted to other nations that are not of the Children of Israel, when they besiege enemy peoples.
So this is not a morality unique only to Jews.

Shlomi (2018-06-25)

Wonderful.
It is worth noting that there is another unbearable bias when someone with a principled opinion will almost always support it with factual assertions. For example: the biometric database is immoral, and there is also no way to ensure it will not leak / a welcome step, and it can also be protected. Or – internet filtering is Iran here, and in any case every child will be able to bypass it (which is already self-contradictory..), and vice versa.

Roni (2018-06-25)

Shlomi,
In my opinion that is tolerable and even logical.
Our conception of human nature has moral as well as practical implications.
If you think that human beings are by nature meant to live in national state communities, you may infer from that that nationalism is a value (if you accept as a value a life that accords with the nature of society), and also infer that shaking off nationalism will not succeed.
If you think that censorship is contrary to the nature of the free human being, you can infer from that that filtering is immoral (because it is contrary to the essence of man, who is a creature made for freedom), and also that it is in human nature to find ways to circumvent what is contrary to its nature.
Etc. etc.

Roni (2018-06-25)

*or the nature of society > in keeping with the nature of society

Shlomi (2018-06-26)

It may be that the opposition to harming children is what Prof. Shalom Rosenberg, if I remember correctly, calls “aesthetic morality” – what does not photograph well is in any case immoral, regardless of the act itself, and seeing children harmed is something that looks bad

Michi (2018-06-26)

What does not photograph well does not photograph well. As far as I am concerned, morality stems from considerations, not from images.

Galant a Leftist? (2018-06-26)

With God’s help, 13 Tammuz 5778

From what Yoav Galant said in his meeting with the Yesha Council, it appears that his attitude toward settlement in Judea and Samaria is sympathetic. See the article “Minister Galant: Settlement is the lifeblood of Zionism” on the Arutz 7 website.

Regards, Sh. Tz. Levinger

On the substance of the question, I will toss out a few reflections:

A. This is not really a matter of a pursuer, since the kites cause damage and not danger to life. The discussion seems on its face to belong to the laws of war: is it permissible to harm a non-combatant civilian (“the best of the gentiles”…) when this is vital to a military operation. It seems that President Truman took the lenient view on this in Hiroshima and Dresden…

B. On the other hand, on the practical level, harming the kite-flyer does not really help deter in a society that sanctifies and admires “shahids.” The real deterrence should be directed toward the people in power, for whom the teenage kite-flyers are “playthings” in their hands, for not a single kite flies without “orders from above”…

And perhaps ‘nonviolent civil disobedience’? (2018-06-26)

And perhaps the youths of the “Gaza Envelope” should occupy themselves during the “summer vacation” season by flying “burning kites” into the fields of Gaza. This does not endanger the lives of innocent people, but it certainly hurts the pocketbook…

After all, this is truly “nonviolent civil disobedience” 🙂

Regards, Shatzatma Gandinger

Chaim Ze’ev Berger (2018-06-26)

Shatz”l,
In a previous response of yours (to the article “On Education, Security, and Policy”), you proposed setting up devices that would create an east wind and send the kites back to Gaza.
Do you have any knowledge regarding the feasibility of such devices, from the physical, operational, and economic standpoints? From the physical standpoint, perhaps you could consult with the rabbi.
Perhaps one could build a wall of hundreds of thousands of fans (ventilators), 40 kilometers long and 2 kilometers high?

As I understand it (though I am not expert in the matter), the wind from the sea is more common, and therefore it is easier to send kites from Gaza to us, and not the other way around.
In any case, when the residents of the Gaza Envelope fly kites, they risk the kite returning to them like a boomerang (beyond the diplomatic, security, and moral implications).

You can use a slingshot (to Ch.Z.B.) (2018-06-26)

With God’s help, 13 Tammuz 5778

To Ch.Z.B. – many greetings,

The question of the western wind blowing in our region, “western” in a double sense… is a difficult problem in flying kites from here to there. Perhaps it would be possible to tie the kite to a slingstone that would be launched westward by a slingshot, and this requires further study.

A more practical idea I proposed in my response above, “Galant a Leftist?”, section B; see there, and this too requires further study.

Regards, Sh. Tz. Levinger

After it was published today that the number of female combatants on the Navy missile boats has grown, one can suggest that the female combatants on the missile boats sailing west of the Strip should launch kites that would be carried by the east wind to the fields of Gaza, and all is sound and clear and established 🙂

Chaim Ze’ev Berger (2018-06-26)

The range of an incendiary kite can reach dozens of kilometers, and the width of the Strip is only a few kilometers, so a kite arriving from the direction of the sea might pass over the Strip and cause an “own goal.”
Beyond that, if these kites are launched from Navy ships, then this is the use of the army to attack the enemy, and it is no longer “civil disobedience” as you suggested.
Furthermore, you could simply propose that the army send guided missiles from its ships, its planes, and its bases at targets empty of people; that way innocent lives would not be endangered, and every shot would reach its address.
Why go around in circles if you can walk straight?

David (2018-06-26)

The proposal to develop a device that would combat the kites is ridiculous, on a level of absurdity no less than sending a missile costing $100,000 to intercept a mortar shell whose production cost is 50 shekels, when a few rifle bullets could settle the matter.
This is not required of any person or any state (is it permissible to save oneself from a pursuer by taking his life? Why—should the pursued one put on a flak jacket?).
And when we are dealing with enemies, the perplexity is even greater. After all, even if their intention is to kill and they have not yet acted, there is no reason it should be forbidden to kill them; now that they have acted, does this even need to be asked?
“And in a town adjoining the border, even if they came not about lives but about straw and hay– one goes out against them with weapons, and one desecrates the Sabbath on their account.”

It would be worth your while to look at the place I referred you to (to Ch.Z.B.) (2018-06-26)

In the final analysis, I referred to my remarks in the response “Galant a Leftist?” (section B), where I proposed dealing personally with the organizers of the kites, who sit at the top of the Hamas regime. They are the “brain” behind the “civil disobedience,” and they can and should be dealt with in order to achieve deterrence.

The idea underlying the discussion—as if harming the teenage attackers could bring deterrence—is as effective as the proposals for a wind-device or counter-kites. One must deal with the root and not the symptoms.

Regards, Sh. Tz. Levinger’

Avner (2018-06-26)

It should be noted that in the current “round,” the IDF is trying to avoid harming even adult, professional Hamas fighters who are firing mortars.
The number of Hamas fatalities in this round is approaching zero (apart from the day they tried to breach the fence).
And it seems that this context absolutely has to be given to the pseudo-moral discussion taking place here.

They developed a device to intercept kites – embellishing morality is strength (to David) (2018-06-26)

With God’s help, 14 Tammuz 5778

To David – many greetings,

A rifle bullet aimed at the kite-launchers is not effective, since (as our friend Ch.Z. Berger noted) the range of the kites is on the order of kilometers, far beyond the range of a rifle.

But the Jewish mind is not bereft, and last Thursday we were informed (google “kite interception”) of the entry into action of a system for intercepting incendiary kites. A sophisticated device detects the kite from a distance of 7 km and sends a drone to intercept it by means of a laser beam, and thus both the damage and the moral conflict are avoided together.

Our being among those who are scrupulous not to harm human life where there is a moral solution is part of strengthening our mental resilience. Faith in the justice of our path gives a great deal of strength to struggle.

The dimension of deterrence, as I have already written above, is actually achieved effectively by “targeted killing” of the organizers. After all, it is impossible to strike every teenager incited to become a “shahid,” and “collective punishment” intensifies the hatred of the “little citizen” toward us and makes it easier for the leaders of terror to recruit him for acts of madness.

They already disagreed about this, Rabban Yohanan ben Zakkai and Pangar the Arab from Titus’s entourage. Pangar the Arab argued that when a snake is wrapped around a barrel of honey, one breaks the barrel in order to kill the snake, whereas Rabban Yohanan ben Zakkai argued that one brings a charmer to capture the snake and does not harm the barrel of honey (Lamentations Rabbah). That is to say: according to RYBZ, “targeted prevention” is preferable!

Regards, Sh. Tz. Levinger

About the vital importance of the “spirit of justice” for the heroism of those “who turn back the battle at the gate,” we learn from the cantillation marks in the verse: “On that day the Lord shall be for a spirit of justice (etnachta) to him that sits in judgment, and for strength to them that turn back the battle at the gate.” That is to say, “for a spirit of justice” refers not only to “him that sits in judgment,” but also to the continuation, “and for strength to them that turn back the battle at the gate.” This teaches us that embellishing morality is strength!

Correction and completion of source citation (2018-06-26)

Paragraph 3, line 1:
… where there is a more moral solution, …

Paragraph 5, line 3:
… (Lamentations Rabbah 1:31)…

ariella pinchas (2018-06-28)

As usual, another excellent post. One that makes a byword and a laughingstock of the dime-store commentators on all the channels. This fire has been eating up the fields of the Negev for weeks, and I have not heard a sensible word from a single one of them regarding possible actions—when yes and when no, what is right and what is not. The truth is that even now it is not clear what lies behind the lack of response. When we were children, we thought, ah, surely those up above know what needs to be known and are certainly doing what needs to be done. The dimension of time has not been kind to that assumption of mine. In any event, another wonderful and wise post. May there be many like you in Israel.

PIRO (2022-08-07)

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