On the Contribution of the Haredim – A Look at Some Foolish Arguments (Column 629)
In recent weeks, the controversy over drafting the Haredim has flared up again (and not “drafting yeshiva students,” as Haredi demagogues try to sell us). Time and again we hear the preposterous claims about the Haredim’s marvelous contribution to security, society, and the economy, about their outstanding volunteering, and so on. Honestly, it’s hard to believe anyone needs arguments to see that this is demagogic nonsense—but it turns out there are quite a few fools who buy this tripe. To my astonishment, even among the Haredim who put forward these arguments there are some who truly believe them and don’t realize they’re being fed apologetic propaganda for distribution.
Drafting Haredim or Drafting Yeshiva Students
As noted, the Haredim insist on presenting this as a controversy about drafting yeshiva students rather than drafting Haredim. But that is, of course, a lie. First, all those who did not decide to devote themselves to Torah also do not enlist. True, some Haredi spokesmen repeat again and again that they should be drafted, but in practice these are empty words. There is strong opposition to the enlistment of any Haredi—both politically and via social pressure on those who enlist. I won’t even get into the fictitious registrations to avoid the draft and other well-known tricks.
By the way, the lie of Torah magena u’matzla (“Torah protects and saves”), which I already addressed in Column 609, even on their view, applies only to those who sit and learn—not to everyone who wears a suit. We’ve never heard that a suit “protects and saves.” On the contrary, the fear among suit-wearers of the army’s supposed negative influences suggests the suits don’t really protect. Beyond this, even if it’s only those who have genuinely accepted upon themselves the yoke of Torah—a very small minority—we must ensure their number does not exceed what is reasonable. Even they do not deserve a sweeping exemption.
I must say that one of the ugliest and most demagogic pamphlets I’ve seen lately is the following letter:
If this is the level of thinking, here’s more evidence of the disconnect between analytical ability in Talmudic analysis and basic common sense. Beyond the fiction that “Torah protects and saves,” he is essentially claiming that wearing a suit counts as combat support. The fact that there is shirking of service in the general public as well, and that the IDF does not operate at peak efficiency and effectiveness (to put it mildly)—a fact Haredi spokesmen gleefully repeat—is, of course, true. But there it is not organized, institutionalized, and ideological. In addition, I read a few years ago that the ratio of combat support to combat soldiers in the IDF is among the lowest in the world. One must remember that every combat soldier requires a certain number of combat-support personnel—even if not exactly the numbers we have—without whom soldiers cannot fight. “Combat support” is not a synonym for “draft-dodger.” Thus his argument collapses. These foolish comparisons are penny-ante demagoguery. It’s very easy to accuse others—sometimes with a measure of truth and sometimes not at all—and use that as the basis for your own shirking.
On the contrary: if you have an idea to improve the army’s effectiveness and efficiency, please, enlist and cooperate to improve the situation. Haredi armchair experts explain to us that we actually don’t need soldiers, and that the IDF is overstaffed anyway (they know this from an equidistant-letter study of the Gemara). Other Haredi experts recommend a professional army. Good for them—they examined both feasibility and the social, economic, and security implications thoroughly during the mashgiach’s Monday lunch-break talk (right before the mussar session—“Turn it and turn it, for everything is in it”).
In recent weeks all this chatter has been refuted by the leadership of this distorted public itself. The government they are part of decided to extend the duration of regular service and quadruple the length of reserve service. Naturally, without touching the enlistment of Haredim. They do this with brazen impudence as if there were no problem. There is no limit to the chutzpah and the desecration of God’s name. I doubt any Torah they study will protect them in the Heavenly Court, where they will receive their due as the worst offenders among Israel, great and small. I only hope Deri, Gafni, and Goldknopf won’t forget to announce that the talking points need updating (since, all of a sudden, we do lack soldiers).
The common claims directed at the national-religious public (including from not a few national-religious rabbis) that its members feel greater solidarity with secular Jews than with Haredim, or the claim that they feel solidarity with combat support in the army rather than with “support” in yeshivot—these too are shabby demagoguery. Of course I will feel solidarity with those who shoulder the burden—rather than with those who may be close to me in values but brazenly shirk carrying the burden and use the entire society as a cash cow. By the way, do the Haredim feel solidarity at least with that small percentage of combat soldiers? How many hours in the yeshiva are dedicated to fostering that sense of solidarity? Or perhaps the sticky slogan “your brother,” which appears here as in every Haredi propaganda pamphlet, does not actually reflect any sense of brotherhood.
On Volunteering and Fulfilling Obligations
There is one principled point that recurs in the shallow pamphleteering discourse of Haredi spokesmen. They supposedly volunteer in wondrous fashion, more than any other public, and thereby fully discharge their duty to society (they too, just like paroled prisoners, have “paid their debt to society”). There are charity enterprises, various gemachim, and of course Hatzalah and ZAKA, which have been in the headlines lately and made into heroes of the age. There is some recruitment of Haredim to dubious frameworks, mainly meant to integrate them into society and give them an economic base—but not always to benefit the army optimally (understatement alert). Beyond that, these frameworks comprise a minuscule percentage of Haredi draft-age men (a percentage that is not growing over the years, contrary to the misleading public image), and even this minority faces significant opposition and difficulties within Haredi society. Yet outwardly they are presented as social heroes and a symbol of sharing the burden. By the way, a significant portion of participants in these frameworks—whose numbers are tiny in any case—are not Haredim, but the media coverage is always framed as Haredi progress toward integration (see, for example, the critique here of a piece by Yair Cherki. Incidentally, Cherki himself has noted more than once that Haredi enlistment in recent years is a bluff).
Instead of wrestling with these silly claims, I’ll bring here an excellent post by Rabbi Ilay Ofran.[1] I couldn’t have put it better:
| One day last week, a few students at the mechina (pre-military academy) didn’t wake up on time, and I found myself doing one of my least favorite things in education—a scolding talk. I tried to explain to them the difference between someone who accidentally oversleeps and someone who goes to bed knowing he’ll get up late tomorrow. Because slip-ups happen to everyone sometimes; usually that’s not terrible. The real problems begin not when someone breaks the rules, but when there’s someone in the group who assumes that the rules that apply to everyone simply don’t apply to him. Yes, there’s some general expectation, a law or regulation—but it doesn’t concern me. I’ll join when and how I feel like it. And that inner posture is what breaks a community. Therefore, the important question isn’t how many rules you keep or break, but whether you see yourself as part of the group at all. It may be one reason why many couples who have lived together for years still feel it’s important to marry before having children. Because that dramatic step—perhaps the most dramatic decision in a person’s life—is hard to take based only on the voluntary basis of love, friendship, and passion. The basis of that partnership is the agreement that some shared system of rules applies to us. In religious language, I think it’s called a “covenant”—a sharp and clear mutual commitment that doesn’t depend on some passing whim. This insight has become sharper for me recently around the issue of equality in bearing the burden, because I think we’re framing the issue incorrectly. The fault line in Israeli society is not between those who serve and those who don’t, but between those who think the rules apply to them and those who exempt themselves from the collective. Because it turns out there are those who didn’t serve and yet are part of the covenant, and there are those who fully serve but, in the depths of their soul, take themselves out of the collective. One who claims that a ZAKA volunteer contributes more to the state than a “sprinkler NCO” at the Kirya (IDF HQ) is right. And those who argue that National Service roles can be as significant and important as some roles in the army are also right. But the meaningful question is not “How much did you contribute?” but “Do you see yourself as part of the collective?”—or more precisely, “Do the obligations that apply to everyone also apply to you?” In Haredi and Hardali society, this method is very common—exempt yourself from the rules that apply to everyone, and then volunteer with great zeal. I have the utmost respect—very seriously—for all the volunteers, but I wouldn’t be willing to build a family, a community, or a state with you. A covenant is based first and foremost on obligation, and just as you can’t build a mechina with guys who get up in the morning only when it suits them, and you can’t build a family with someone who will function as a father only when he feels like it, so too you can’t build a state with someone whose contribution is based on volunteering—even if he is truly a devoted volunteer. That is the plain meaning of the sages’ teaching: “Greater is the one who is commanded and does than the one who is not commanded and does”—volunteering is nice, but a “covenant” exists only with those who see themselves as obligated. The moment a 12th-grader signs “Torato Omanuto” (Torah as his occupation) or when a 12th-grade girl declares [and receives an exemption], they remove themselves from the collective and proclaim: the rules that apply to all other citizens don’t concern me. Now that I’m exempt from any duty, I’ll decide whether, when, and how much to contribute. So, kudos to the young women who, despite the exemption, go and contribute through National Service—truly from the heart. And kudos to the young men in higher yeshivot and in some of the “line” mechinot who, after “Torato Omanuto,” sign a waiver and enlist in the army and risk their lives bravely. That is truly amazing. And kudos to the Haredi volunteers in MDA, Yad Sarah, ZAKA, and Yedidim. All these contributions are uplifting and heart-warming; their drawback is simply that they are not part of the covenant. It doesn’t matter how hard you worked, and it doesn’t even matter how many fallen you have. A covenant is the security and knowledge that you will always be there with us—and not only when it suits you. The sprinkler NCO at the Kirya may not be crawling under enemy fire, but in essence he sees himself as part of the covenant. He understands that the rules that apply to everyone apply to him as well. Therefore he is a true partner. He may contribute little, but you can truly rely on him. That’s how you build a family; that’s how you build a community. That’s how you build a mechina. That’s how you build a state. Passover is approaching. It’s worth recalling from time to time how the Haggadah refers to the son who takes himself out of the collective. |
Beyond the claim about bearing the burden of obligations rather than volunteering, it’s worth recalling what Rabbi Shai Piron said: no one returns from ZAKA in a coffin. That’s an important statement when we recall the sanctimonious criticism of the “Eretz Nehederet” sketch about the knock at the door (see for example here and dozens of other articles, posts, and interviews), as well as the sanctimonious criticism by various rabbis and journalists from the national-religious sector of the campaign that presented the number of fallen soldiers from the national-religious community to argue that the Haredim must enlist (see for example here a response by my former colleagues in Yeruham, among many others). Even Rabbi Sheinvald, head of the Hesder Yeshiva in Modi’in, who came out against this campaign, later repeated the same points in a sugar-coated, flattering language—true to the best tradition of the national-religious inferiority complex toward the Haredim.
These two critiques and similar ones are entirely substantive, presenting relevant facts and arguments (see the same arguments also here and here). I cannot grasp why anyone thinks they must not be presented—“Touch not Mine anointed.” You may be a parasite, but don’t you dare remind the parasite that he is one! It reminds me of what the rabbi of the community in Yeruham told me angrily when I criticized the conduct of the council head and the Haredim who joined him, and wrote that they are corrupt and mistreating the public in Yeruham. The rabbi rebuked me for lashon hara and desecration of God’s name. And I wondered aloud: Is it permitted to steal and behave corruptly, and only warning about it is lashon hara and a desecration of God’s name? Such selective sanctimony appears again and again in the discussion of the Haredim.
The Ailments of Volunteering
Beyond the malady inherent in volunteering instead of fulfilling one’s duty, volunteering poses another problem. The moment certain matters are done on a volunteer basis rather than within an orderly state framework, that opens the door to many ills—and they will not be slow to arrive. I recently read an investigative report about ZAKA, for example. If what’s written there is correct, then contrary to the heroic halo it received after the recent war, it’s not at all clear how necessary it was. Moreover, the claim is that its actions even caused harm. For PR reasons, it was important for them to act and be seen—since that justifies their existence. By heavy-handed means they secured deployment in places where there were dedicated army units that should have done the work more efficiently and professionally. Fundraising was an inseparable part of their activity throughout. But it turns out they were apparently right: the impression created in the public was exactly what they wanted to create. See also here another investigation about inflating headcount to obtain budgets. That unhealthy competition exists as well regarding MDA versus the various Hatzalah organizations (and MDA is hardly free of failures and problems).
In general, all these Haredi volunteer activities—like Hatzalah, ZAKA, and the like—strike me as very puzzling. Aren’t they supposed to be studying in the yeshiva all that time? If they have time to volunteer and they are not learning in kollel, why can’t they enlist? We are told again and again that learning justifies not enlisting and that it protects us. Yet at the same time all those who are not learning proudly boast that they volunteer. If they’re not learning—let them enlist. I assume the blessed activities of ZAKA and Hatzalah can be performed without them as well (exactly as they were before those organizations were formed). You can’t dance at all weddings: you can’t say that learning substitutes for everything else and at the same time explain that they are engaged in numerous other activities for the good of society. Oh, actually—you can.
Core Curriculum Studies
First of all, let it be known that Haredim who study Talmud from childhood do not need a core curriculum. They can make it up in seconds the moment they need it. Every schoolchild knows that someone accustomed to analyzing a Talmudic sugya—Einstein’s relativity and quantum theory are child’s play for him. Such absurd statements can be made only by those who live in the Haredi bubble—those who have never encountered a difficult subject they couldn’t manage or comprehend due to its challenges. In mathematics or physics, a paper by R. Akiva Eiger is supposedly the equivalent of a child’s exercise by comparison. Incidentally, most students never encounter a subject or lecture of that level (to my judgment, apart from physics and mathematics, there are very few subjects with such difficulty). Such people naturally do not see that there are almost no products of the Haredi world in professions that require real education (sciences, medicine, and the like). Beyond the late start, many of them simply cannot cope with these subjects. I won’t share my experiences from courses I taught in the Haredi track at Ono Academic College, where I directly observed the wondrous analytical and logical abilities of Talmud students. Of course there are excellent talents there too, but the claim that Talmud study substitutes for education is a bad joke.
I’ll just note what I said to a couple who visited my home a few weeks ago. I am repeatedly stunned by the gap between the lamdanut abilities and the intellectual abilities of Haredi avrechim (married scholars). People can present brilliant moves in Talmudic lamdanut and behave like complete calves when we need to define concepts and basic principles and think in an orderly way. They are so accustomed to vertlach and clever twists that their organized, systematic thinking is damaged almost beyond repair. This surprises me every time, since in my view Talmudic lamdanut should be one of the fields that most requires orderly and original thinking and the definition of concepts and basic principles. This dissonance is truly a puzzle, but that doesn’t stop Eichler from confidently explaining that core-curriculum studies are unnecessary even for a “heretic” who, against the will of all the great rabbis of the generation, chooses to go to work, heaven forbid.
The Economic Contribution
You won’t believe it, but some stubbornly argue that the Haredim’s contribution to the economy is great and immense. I first heard this brainwave from my study partner. His claim was that producers have no special contribution, since state revenues come from those who consume their products. Buyers pay taxes and VAT, and that’s the money that makes its way to the state treasury via the manufacturer and the seller. Haredim, who consume for their many children, thus pay taxes like everyone else. And even if someone is wealthy and spends more—does he deserve our gratitude for being a spendthrift? Is there an obligation to spend a lot of money? You must understand: the producer contributes nothing to the economy. The taxes (income tax and VAT) he transfers to the state treasury are passed on to the buyers (they’re baked into the price). Therefore, in the end, buyers are the ones who fund the state and put all the money in its coffers. I saw this “insight” again here from one of their great propagandists and brazen demagogues, Eichler shlita (see the interview here from 10:30 onward. The entire interview is a model of arrogance, malice, and infantile mendacity, as is customary in Eichler’s beit midrash).
This argument reminds me of a family joke that was common in our home. Whenever we saw a cost-saving device (like a water-saving toilet flush) or an economical product package, the kids told me to buy a large quantity so I would save tons of money and could stay home instead of going to work. The idea was that one could simply work by saving. That’s exactly what Eichler proposes for the State of Israel. The best thing is to “work by saving.” We should distribute money to anyone who wants it and then collect a percentage back in taxes. He’ll spend his money on purchases, and thus the state coffers will fill from tax revenues. The crucial question that all these wise guys find most convenient to ignore is: who brings something from the outside in so there is something flowing within that closed loop? That’s where production comes in. A producer’s contribution is not the taxes he pays (though that also reflects it), but the fact that he adds an external contribution to output. But that question apparently requires advanced core-curriculum studies—no wonder Eichler failed to notice it.
On second thought, it seems more akin to the known tale of Hershele, who entered a bakery and ordered rolls. Then he noticed there were doughnuts on the counter and asked to exchange his rolls for doughnuts. They exchanged them, he sat and ate, and when he finished he got up and left (without paying). The seller ran after him and demanded payment, and Hershele asked: “Payment for what?” “For the doughnuts,” the man replied. “But I gave you the rolls in exchange,” retorted Hershele-Eichler. The seller growled that he hadn’t paid for the rolls, but Hershele is not one to lose his composure in tough moments: “I didn’t eat the rolls—so why should I pay for them?!”
I refer you to a more sophisticated apologetic article that ostensibly cites data and blames the critics. In light of what I wrote here, you’ll easily spot its main flaws. Beyond the blurring of concepts—a well-known apologetic tool (“Define ‘Haredi’!”)—it brazenly ignores the question of production and focuses on the question of cost to the state treasury, subsidies, and purchasing power. Incidentally, even regarding those data, its reliance on official numbers is naïve (at best). It is impossible to ascertain the true figures in these matters, since a great deal of transfers to the Haredi world do not occur via regular budgetary line items that can be tracked, and much has already been written about this.
Conclusion: How Do Intelligent People End Up Saying Childish Nonsense with Deep Conviction?
We are dealing with a collection of ridiculous arguments, and you can hear them from any average Haredi mouth—from the greatest roshei yeshiva, through the fixers, down to rank-and-file avrechim. Intelligent people with razor-sharp analytical capacity spout absurd drivel like kindergarten children—and do so with deep, fervent self-conviction. You wonder where our wise and prudent nation has gone; where the Torah’s insight and far-seeing eyes have gone. The answer is that propaganda works—especially when it comes with pangs of conscience or with no conscience at all (see below). If you repeat a piece of nonsense enough times, even the person who invented it starts to believe it.
For many years now, whenever I hear a Haredi spokesperson in a media debate about the Haredim, I recall the joke about Nixon (later applied to Ariel Sharon). In Nixon’s merry days, people in America would ask: What’s the sign that tells us Nixon is lying? Answer: when he moves his lips. A Haredi spokesperson in the media is always an explainer, and as such he is a liar by definition. It’s hard to find a word of truth in what they say—and that’s exceptional even by the lax truth standards of the media. They can tell you with deep conviction that they are persecuted (sometimes that’s even true), that budgets owed to them by right are withheld, that they all enlist except for a handful who study in yeshiva (and if someone shirks, please enlist him and don’t generalize), that their budgets are the lowest of all sectors, and that their contribution to GDP is about that of Bill Gates. Of course they don’t oppose Zionism at all, and certainly don’t look down on anyone else. They constantly pray for IDF soldiers and for all of us. They “mark” Memorial Day in their own way (and anyway, why should we mark it if you don’t mark Tisha B’Av?!) and on and on. These spokesmen manufacture the foolish arguments that are then adopted by the Haredi masses “in the fields” (i.e., in the beit midrash—the Haredi translation of “field,” like David’s cistern of Bethlehem in Bava Kamma 60b).
Here we reach the question of conscience, and allow me to end with a psychological note. I have no doubt that any honest Haredi feels distress, since it is clear that as a community they behave parasitically, immorally, and perversely. Therefore any pretext, however flimsy, may help him make peace with his conscience (at least among those who still have one). In fact, I think the conscience-less (the spokesmen) are the ones who supply these foolish pretexts for the use of the conscientious, so that the latter can live with themselves and look in the mirror only through “the pure hashkafa,” i.e., the one-way mirror that filters what they see. The learned psychologists call this phenomenon “cognitive dissonance.” You see—even in psychology you can sometimes find words of wisdom.
Generally speaking, I strongly recommend not engaging in meet-and-greet “understanding” sessions between groups. They usually don’t help. But meetings with Haredim are a real waste of time. They come to deliver a message and are usually represented by professional spokesmen (try arranging a meeting with Haredi children or youth), and they recite the scripts that were put in their mouths (true, this is not unique to the Haredim, but it is especially conspicuous among them). Therefore, it’s not worth listening to their arguments, because you won’t hear anything straight or authentic. In my experience, these meetings are grinding already-ground flour. They may have some value if they manage to arouse pangs of conscience among those Haredim whose conscience still exists. But among Haredi spokesmen, that is a rather rare phenomenon. If you succeed in creating dialogue with ordinary folks from the street, that could indeed be useful. But fear not: if you do more of this—and especially if it turns out to be useful—it will immediately be forbidden, and bans will be issued against the participants. They’d be better off enlisting. In the army, at least, there is a cadre of political commissars whose job is to preserve Haredi identity from any foreign influence, heaven forbid. You know what? Maybe that’s the way to get them to enlist…
Discussion
Words of truth are recognizable.
The solution is for them to feel a bit of suffering. On the theoretical level, I would say to limit military protection for Haredi areas.
Let the Torah protect them – let's see what happens to them after 5 minutes without an army.
In any case – if the blessed God cares about His name – then let Him act against the Haredim, because we have no power to do anything about it.
Yes, I saw it. I asked Oren to add it.
More power to you
Added.
What do you think of the Haredi argument (which is not voiced publicly for obvious reasons) that the wars and troubles are the result of the sins of the secular and the religious-Zionists, and that if everyone were Haredi there would be peace and good livelihoods, so the real solution is not military service but Torah study?
Only regarding the response of Rabbi Uri and Rabbi Haim – as I understand it, it is not related to the actual question under discussion, but to the use of the fallen for campaign purposes without the families' permission. That is insensitive, and you simply do not do such things, and I completely agree with their response. The fact that the son fell does not make him public property or an asset of advertising agencies. Let people mourn, and do not drag them by force into your wars, justified as they may be. There are enough ways and reasons to oppose the draft law even without bereaved parents waking up tomorrow morning and seeing their fallen son's face being used for a political campaign (and when we are talking about 9 fallen soldiers, that is more or less like using his face).
I heard a different claim: after all, the yeshivas raise a lot of money from abroad, so they are bringing in clean money.
"A producer's contribution is not in the taxes he pays (though that too reflects it), but in the fact that he adds an external contribution to the output."
So if someone, say, grows lots of oranges for a living and sells them without paying tax, is there still some contribution to the state in that? How exactly?
Someone who grows lots of oranges without paying tax contributes to the economy the gross value of the oranges.
Maybe that is hard to see with oranges, so imagine someone building a house for free for anyone who wants one. Wouldn't that help the economy?
In principle, taxes do not contribute to the economy or to public wealth at all (obviously they slow it down); they are simply a condo fee – a sad necessity.
With oranges*
Thanks for the column.
I would be glad to ask the rabbi:
1. That the Haredi public are exploitative, extortionist, and immoral is obvious.
But none of this happens in a vacuum.
What is doubly frustrating is the public in Israel, that very cash cow,
which does not get up and say: enough.
The war will end, and Netanyahu's replacements from left and right,
like all their predecessors, will give the Haredim up to half the kingdom.
What has been will be; we will watch the Haredim in astonishment,
and they will go on scoring goals into an empty net.
The country is in turmoil over fine points of the reform, yes-no Bibi, etc.,
while in another decade, without the Haredim in the army, there will be no country here at all.
Or in other words: only body identifiers will remain here, without bodies.
So why should we complain about them?
On the political level, we are being led like calves no less than the Haredi public.
Which also does not indicate independent and mature thinking.
And the only ones enabling this cheap show at an expensive ticket price
are us.
2. Among all the Haredi claims against the draft that you raised here on the site, I missed Rabbi Shach's argument:
According to our method and our path, there was no need to bring matters with the Arabs to a state of hatred, and we could have lived with them
in peace, for we did not come to take anything from them, but only to settle in our ancestral estate, from our uncles and aunts. But
they [the Zionists], because they came to conquer, created a situation of hatred with the Arabs by taking from them something
which the Arabs emphasized, rightly, was theirs, and therefore they were left with no choice but to deal with them by the usual
political means.
Ish Ha-Hashkafah: The Haredi Ideology According to Rabbi Shach, p. 126.
After what happened here over the past year, and in light of the increased hatred for the settlers in the media (to whose tune, as usual, the left's public representatives dance, and their voters are loyal to them – and likewise the quiet way the outrageous Supreme Court disqualification passed), against the background of the settlers' sacrifice in battle, it amuses me that this discussion is still going on. After it was made clear that the state belongs to a collection of judicial bureaucrats who have no loyalty to the Jewish people, I do not understand at all why the religious-Zionist public and the Mizrahi and traditional public are still enlisting at all. And all the more so in order to die to save the lives of "uninvolved" Gazans.
I am quite convinced that if the Haredim enlist, they will be hated even more than now, as we see in the attitude toward the settlers.
Besides, I heard from someone who served in Shahar in the Air Force that this track was shut down despite being successful because the army decided to imprison two Haredi soldiers who refused to be present during women singing. And despite a petition to the High Court about it, the army decided that the orders were not above all. Then the Haredim learned their lesson and did not enlist, and this track was closed. You really cannot trust IDF commanders on these matters. And personally I do not trust them in anything.
Very interesting, but the whole claim here (clearly justified) against the ridiculous claims of the Haredim fits one-to-one all the left's claims over the past year against the reform. The level of argumentation is no less idiotic. Somehow it turned out that democracy is rule by bureaucrats who must not be chosen by the people (who should be replaced), but rather by themselves. And thus argued, with deep internal conviction, the heads of academia and most of its members, the heads of the economy, the heads of the army, the Shin Bet and the Mossad over generations, the various jurists, economists lacking self-awareness, and all kinds of self-styled experts.
And somehow you managed to support the conclusion of their discussion (in order to satisfy the inferiority feelings from the other side of the religious Zionists toward the secular, and especially the left). One must refuse orders and harm the economy, so long as the government falls. Somehow you managed to find a defect in every coalition member. These are corrupt, those are parasites, and you even managed to find a defect in the religious Zionists and Ben Gvir, who represent a public that is not corrupt and not parasitic – they are racists, God save us! (Never mind that you wrote an entire column saying racism is not something that really exists except as condescension. And of course the other opposition parties are great humble souls and lowly in their own eyes…)
So again, this column amazes me. It turns out the Haredim were the smartest of all and understood who they were dealing with. And since the left – through its scribblers – has always excelled at inventing super-ridiculous and paradoxical arguments and believing them as absolute truth, it is obviously only possible to confront it this way. "With the crooked, You show Yourself twisted." I learned this the hard way in all the insane arguments I had with creatures from the left…. The best way to deal with them is through anti-madness.
There are Haredi spokesmen who are down-to-earth and straightforward, like Gershon Moskowitz from Tarbez. It is indeed worthwhile to meet with Haredim, but simply with the right Haredim, and also that those who meet should not come to fight but to learn and understand both sides.
To tell the truth, right after I posted the column I remembered this gem, and thought it was a shame I had not presented it too, to complete the foolishness.
I see no reason why permission from the families should be requested. Do the data belong to them? The son is not public property, but the fact that he fell definitely is. Absurd.
Indeed. That is a small contribution to Israel's GDP. It appears at length in the article I linked to. There are also Haredi businesses and initiatives. Their contribution to the economy is not zero, and I did not claim that. My claim is that their contribution is significantly lower relative to their share of the population.
1. You burst through an open door. I have said and written this countless times. The secular are the main ones to blame for this. But that does not reduce the Haredim's guilt. Just as a lazy police force does not mean the robbers are not guilty.
2. I addressed that nonsense just now above here: https://mikyab.net/posts/85445/#comment-80541
Indeed.
https://news.walla.co.il/item/3646377
I added nothing.
Your Honor, Rabbi,
what do you suggest a Haredi kollel fellow should do after I have read this and been convinced?
The real reason the great Torah sages and opinion leaders in the Haredi public do not support enlistment in the army, *and with very good reason*, is that in the IDF the percentage of those who leave religion is enormous, and almost everyone who does not leave religion experiences a crazy spiritual decline during their army period.
Did you experience leaving religion or spiritual decline during your service?
You cannot use the excuse, "So let them prepare their students for the religious/faith-related problems that arise during the army period."
That does not work well at all. Everyone is still too young, and clearly for a considerable portion of 18-year-olds it is very hard to build a serious religious-ideological level that will protect them from leaving religion or various other sins that are abundantly available in the army (and I am not even mentioning that there will in practice be less Torah study among the people of Israel).
Besides, ask the religious-Zionist public, who do get extensive preparation before enlistment, and who are in full interaction with the secular public even before enlistment. And still, a huge percentage leave religion and fall out of it (whereas they might not have left religion if, for example, they had gotten married or started going straight into the workforce, and certainly if they had chosen to go study Torah).
There is, admittedly, a solution, but it does not seem likely in the foreseeable future: to establish military units suited to this public, without any problematic interaction for them. But beyond the fact that implementation is problematic, it also harms the methodology of the "people's army."
So choose, Michi: the price of true equality in bearing the burden is that the people of Israel will necessarily be less Jewish, and significantly so. Interested?
On the personal level, each person makes decisions according to his own circumstances. I have no proposal that is right for everyone. But at the level of public discourse, sane voices need to be heard from within the Haredi public. They should stop going like sheep to the slaughter and waiting for others to do the work for them.
All I can say is: a band of robbers like you have conquered it. After you abandoned the army, you come with complaints about how it looks. The obligation applies to you as to every other public and every other person. The need to defend oneself comes before every other need and overrides every other prohibition. No one would have had to prepare his students for military service if we had behaved as we ought to have behaved. And I mean from the very beginning of Zionism.
The methodology of the "people's army" that you are talking about does not interest me in the slightest. So long as every group takes part in the duty of defense and contribution to society, let them not integrate into the people's army and let them do whatever nonsense seems good to them. That is not the issue. Are you claiming they do not enlist because if they did there would not be a people's army here? That reminds me of a story about a kiosk owner whom my wife asked to employ an older acquaintance of ours who needed a livelihood, to arrange newspapers for him and so on. He said he was uncomfortable employing an older woman. So, because his righteousness was so great, he left her to starve. That is exactly your argument. It can be added to the foolish arguments mentioned in the column (there are a few others I did not touch on).
Beyond that, the distorted norms of Judaism practiced in the Haredi world are indeed endangered by exposure to the world. These are norms suited to the world of ideas (the crooked one), not to this world. For them, the Torah was given to the ministering angels (from the other side). The question is what that says about those norms. In short, are you right that after service you become less Jewish? You do indeed wear suits less and speak less Yiddish, but I already wrote that a suit neither protects nor saves. In my opinion (and apparently also in the opinion of the Holy One, blessed be He), if you do not enlist you become less Jewish (and more of a desecrator of God's name). Do not forget that soldiers are permitted things that are otherwise forbidden, such as eating carrion. In the army people also kill and desecrate the Sabbath (with permission). So yes, the color of the suit will turn gray. If that is your Judaism, then apparently it is better that it be harmed.
You asked what I choose. I wrote that quite clearly. I hope reading comprehension is still a value in the Haredi world.
Oh, and one more thing. Another foolish argument is that people get corrupted in the army. That is only very partially true. Usually whoever gets there was already 'corrupted'; otherwise, as a Haredi, he would not have come to the army. So the corruption is a cause, not a result, of enlistment. Go out and see how many students of Merkaz HaRav get corrupted during military service. When you declare that anyone who enlists is corrupt, you should not be surprised if you discover that the enlistees are 'corrupt.'
This is a problem that can be solved, for example with separate and relatively sterile battalions, if there is good will on both sides.
Volunteering versus obligation – and if they legally imposed national service in ZAKA and the like, would that help? Obviously not. Obligation is not the main point.
Regarding the economic burden, there are very interesting data that break down voting by polling station and economic cluster, where one sees clearly that the economy simply rests on opposition voters in a very clear way, while in practice this coalition is looting their taxes for corrupt purposes that are liable to damage output severely.
https://www.davar1.co.il/407506/
And if he produces, say, software and sells it to people abroad without paying tax, does that help the state?
In my opinion this too is only partly true. If a person wants to contribute and he is Haredi, why should that automatically make him "corrupt"? Your whole article talks about how in the end they too need to contribute, and in the end it seems that a Haredi person loses out from both directions: when he does not enlist he is a draft dodger, and when he does enlist he gets corrupted. Part of the solution, in my opinion, is mainly social: that a person should feel he is seen as 'good' from both sides. Statements like these can only weaken someone who also cares about his spirituality, while on the other hand has a healthy mind that understands the importance of enlistment.
It still helps, because he pays salaries in Israel. There are other indirect effects too.
You are confusing true with useful. All your arguments concern marketing and psychological effectiveness, but you began by saying that it is partly true.
I usually do not deal in marketing but in what I think is true. Your argument also suffers from a logical fallacy: you are making a catch-22 out of two different sides – what non-Haredim say, versus the Haredim. That is like saying that a secular person is in distress because if he becomes Haredi, his secular friends will say he is an idiot, and if he remains secular, the Haredim will say he will inherit hell.
In short, propaganda considerations, even if they are correct, do not really interest me.
Avi, of course the great Torah sages know; after all, they have divine inspiration.
The problem is that they are not even ashamed of it.
Look here in the link: https://fb.watch/qs35b9TlE8/
Well, first of all, a small correction: I'm a woman. Second, I think that this emotional aspect – call it psychological/marketing – in the end is a very important component in the decision. If we conducted ourselves only according to ideologies and according to the legality of what is right and what is not, the situation probably would not be like this, because I believe that many Haredim do not buy these arguments, those who look reality in the eye. Therefore I think the solution, at least in part, is not only in the intellectual and cold aspect but also in creating here a different social discourse that encourages this ideology. And returning to what you said, that whoever enlists had supposedly already been "corrupt" – that is probably part of the discourse, and in my opinion it does not contribute to change; if anything, it causes people to enlist less, even those who ideologically have already changed something in their outlook, and that is a shame. Of course, this is only part of the picture; I am sure there are other aspects that make the situation more complex. But in my opinion more weight needs to be given to this, because again, the solution is not only ideological but also social.
Sorry for the gender mistake. As I said, I do not deal in marketing. I write my opinion, and everyone can do with it what he thinks/feels.
There was a great Haredi rabbi who claimed that truth is not some "objective" truth, but rather whatever serves God's will is the truth. Therefore Jacob did not deceive.
And therefore everyone speaks the truth.
Rabbi Michi,
we would be glad to read your words and other opinions as well, but to finance Haaretz?
Rabbi Dessler wrote that if one lies for the sake of peace, or for a justified reason, it is not a lie but truth. These word games never spoke to me. They are even morally harmful, and certainly not true.
I did not understand.
I am writing these things as a religious Zionist (more precisely, a graduate of religious Zionism). Even if, say, you believe the selective choice of data (almost certainly), reality is much more complicated. If the economy still needs people who work for low wages and without them it cannot move, you cannot make calculations of taxes in relation to economic burden. Without the Thais who work in agriculture (or somewhere else in the world), the high-tech people in Tel Aviv cannot think about anything. If a machine lacks one screw and therefore does not work, then without it all the other parts it is made of have no value. And without the periphery there is no settlement, no state, and no security. This attempt to separate security from the economy is part of the shallowness common among journalists and the herd of their believers. In short, there is no such thing as a "share in the economic burden." There is sharing the burden. And the economy rests on non-Haredi opposition voters (and also quite a few Haredim too – half of Shas voters are working people). Besides that, most far-left voters work in airy professions, not to say anti-productive professions (they produce fantasies and sell stories): lawyers and jurists, artists, actors, advertisers, marketing and sales people, journalists, media and television people, academics in the humanities, the creatures sitting in "gender studies" departments, thousands of civil service clerks who create jobs for themselves, and many, many clergy of progressivism, engineers of consciousness of various kinds, who manage the rest of the opposition voters, the stupid and self-unaware ones. In short, sell this nonsense to someone else. In short, opposition voters are an economic bluff. The fact that there are a lot of shekels in their bank accounts does not mean they really contribute to the advancement of the world – especially when they are people who have no idea why they exist, and therefore basically live like animals. Soon you will complain about peasants who plow with oxen and raise flocks, that they are looting their cattle and sheep……
You referred to articles in Haaretz that are open only to subscribers. Not everyone is willing to finance Haaretz by purchasing a subscription.
And of course the matter is absurd on its face, because for the obligatory war of municipal elections everyone turns out, from the shababnik to the silk-clad kollel avrech.
It is not entirely wordplay. In the Bible, the word emet points to stability and something that stands over time (apparently its root א.מ.ן alternates with ע.מ.ד). It seems that if you simply told someone an imaginary story, not in order to obtain something from him deceitfully, they would not say of you that you "lied" or did not tell the truth, but that you played around or that you are a fabulist. Falsehood and truth are more found in the context of promises to do something in the future, or claims about past or present that the person to whom they are said relies on (stands on) with regard to important decisions – financial and the like.
Among the sages too it is written that a Torah scholar may "alter" in three matters, or that one may alter for the sake of peace. It does not say that one may lie. And this is not because of wordplay but because that was their language. The word truth underwent a certain evolution from the biblical period to the meaning it points to in our time. I have no idea whether that is what Rabbi Dessler meant, but since in his consciousness he lived in the Hebrew of the Rishonim and Acharonim period (though surely he also spoke modern Hebrew; the question is what Hebrew he was raised on) – which is an intermediate stage between Mishnaic Hebrew and modern Hebrew – that is where this thing came from, which sounds ridiculous to a modern ear. In any event, I think the intention is that what contributes to the stability of the world and society (that is, if after a long time we were to ask the person to whom we altered the truth when we told him, he would thank us for it and say we did the right thing) – that is a kind of long-range truth. As opposed to a lie, which is simply incorrect for any time span.
For example, even in our Hebrew, if a terrorist (or just a criminal) tries to break into your house and you tell him tall tales from the other side of the door in order to stall until help arrives, no one would say that you "lied to him." That is not just random terminology.
Over the years I have also come to understand that the story with Jacob is complicated and one has to think about what happened there. After all, supposedly after the act of deception was revealed to Isaac, he should have cursed Jacob, yet on the contrary he blessed him when he sent him to Laban's house. Maybe that is only because it says, "Cursed be those who curse you, and blessed be those who bless you." It is strange. Jacob too is not all that troubled by the act of deception itself, except insofar as it might be exposed by his father and he would appear in his eyes as "a deceiver," and then absorb a curse rather than a blessing. And he calms down and agrees when his mother tells him the curse will come upon her instead of upon him. In their world, a curse or blessing (especially from a righteous person, but also from an ordinary person) was something very real. And this is the same Jacob of whom it is told with Laban that he is the most honest person there is.
In short, one needs to grow up beyond high school. That is why one really should study the Bible.
Why do you think we are children and you are an adult?
Guess why. I am talking about maturity in understanding Scripture and its language.
As far as I remember, I referred only to open articles. I do not have a subscription either.
With God's help, 15 Adar I 5784
A Jew's duty to 'bear the burden with the community' obligates him not only to assist in security and the economy, but also to fulfill the spiritual mission of the people of Israel: to make God's Torah present in the world.
Some fulfill their Torah obligation by setting aside daily and weekly fixed times for study, and by assisting as 'Zebulun' in supporting Torah; some are 'reservists' in the 'yarchei kallah' months and the like; and some are 'career personnel' who toil in Torah day and night, and from the fruit of their labor and their Torah insights, their brothers who do not have the time for basic and in-depth study are benefited.
Our duty as a people to make Torah present in every sphere of life, including the army, the economy, medicine, and science, creates a need that among people of action too there be men full of Torah, whose Torah will leave its mark and breathe a spirit of life that illuminates practical life with the light of Torah.
Unfortunately, in the secular world there is growing resistance to the 'religionization' of the army, to the point that a well-known general speaks about the need to 're-educate' the Torah-observant members of the army, while others wage absurd struggles for the integration of women into combat units, creating endless problems in matters of modesty and the like.
If someone wants to bring the Haredi public too into military life, he would do well to lower the flames of hatred and contempt for the Torah-observant public, and at the same time work toward confidence-building steps so that 'every Haredi mother may know that she is entrusting her sons to good hands' – hands that show honor and appreciation for their heritage and their Torah. Trust is built through appreciation.
With blessing, Fish"l
As a former Haredi, grandson of two grandfathers who served in the army, one of whom became an IDF disabled veteran from Yom Kippur, I understand the anger/disgust toward the obtuseness and baseless arrogance in this public. I do not live in Israel, but I will educate my children to serve in the IDF.
But… I do not know whether I would lead the Haredi public to serve in the IDF, for several reasons:
1. There is a ruling junta in the army, and only people from the right side really advance there. Everyone else is pushed aside; see Ofer Winter and the like. From here I reach a conclusion/concern: does the IDF truly serve the people of Israel as an ultimate goal, or American interests? And then it is excellent that there is a Jewish anarchistic force that will always preserve Jewish identity even if the State of Israel is destroyed.
2. Do we want a Haredi IDF?
In any case, it is better not to use expressions that dismiss your interlocutor.
Say, "As I understand the Bible," and then such-and-such, and convince us.
If you convince us, all the better, and if not, perhaps you will be convinced.
Excuses will never be lacking; there was always the concern of falling through the beautiful captive woman, and see Ramban on the holiness of the camp.
The relation between performing a commandment and Torah study is explained in Shulchan Arukh, Yoreh De'ah 246:18: 'Torah study is equal to all the commandments. If both performing a commandment and Torah study are before him: if the commandment can be done by others, he should not interrupt his study; if it cannot be done by others, he should do the commandment and return to his study.'
A situation in which 'everyone goes out' exists mainly in wartime and not in normal times. Therefore there can be a situation in which a person studies for many years in yeshiva, but prepares himself through several months of service ('Phase B' or 'hesder merkazi' and the like), at the end of which he joins the reserve system; thus both Torah diligence and going out to an 'obligatory war' are achieved by him.
When relations of trust are built between the military authorities and the Haredi Torah world, such frameworks can also be built in the Haredi public, with a real assurance that after performing the commandment he will 'return to his study'…
With blessing, Fish"l
Such frameworks ('Phase B' or 'hesder merkazi' and the like), besides training for reserve service and emergencies without the need for a prolonged departure from the yeshiva, also contribute to the economic welfare of the Torah-observant public, since they pave the way for integration into gainful employment.
All the more so is this true of frameworks such as Shahar, in which the army trains its personnel in a profession needed by the army that also has a civilian employment horizon.
Such frameworks also answer an internal need of Haredi society, which by the nature of reality also needs 'Zebuluns.'
And to the extent that these things are done wisely and patiently, rather than with hatred and coercion that create antagonism, they have a good chance of succeeding in the long-term perspective. The redemption of Israel too comes 'little by little,' and forcing the end may, God forbid, distance it.
With blessing, Fish"l
Let us not forget that some of those stirring up the 'equality in bearing the burden' campaign are not really interested in Haredim in the army, but want to build themselves politically by inflaming the public against the 'draft-dodging looters of the public purse.' Against the Haredim they will claim they are not in the army, and against the religious-Zionists that they bring 'religious and nationalist extremism' into the army…
On Haredi hesder yeshivas – see the article 'Haredim Concerned for Their Future' on the Arutz 7 website.
Cheap conspiracy theories. Just think about promotions in yeshivas and ask yourself whether that is always done objectively. In my opinion, in the army it is far more objective, though we are all human beings.
The IDF is a reflection of those who serve in it. That is what will determine its character, and that is how it should be.
But unlike the other claims, the claim about sins has some basis in the Torah and in the words of the sages.
The very "sale abroad" is bringing foreign currency into the country; the shekels he exchanges for it, the Bank of Israel can print "for free."
Yes, well known. That is why all prohibitions are permitted to soldiers, such as forbidden foods and the beautiful captive woman, etc. I assume that if terrorists broke into the kollel, you would stay there and die so as not to be corrupted outside. Twisted thinking has no basis whatsoever in the Torah or the words of the sages.
I am not trying to make excuses; I think maybe it really is an asset and a benefit for the people of Israel to have a 'saving leg' – on the one hand the state, in the hope that it will truly achieve independence; on the other hand, if everything goes haywire, and as we see now we are far from real independence. The Americans have a very strong hold on us; the State of Israel is committed to a Western moral system that does not necessarily serve the people of Israel. Perhaps it is good that there is a society that will be insulated and not part of Israeli Jewish discourse at all – call them a Jewish sperm bank. But one can certainly say that they are not actually realizing their Judaism, and they do not contribute to the people of Israel.
In the army, at least you have to make an effort before you reach a senior rank; in insider systems, sometimes it is enough just to be born into the right family.
With God's help, 18 Adar I 5784
In 'A Song of Ascents, of Solomon' the necessity of divine assistance in war is explained, for 'Unless the Lord guards the city, the watchman keeps watch in vain,' and unfortunately we saw this on Simchat Torah: the guards and the spotters saw and warned, yet the decision-making ranks 'were struck with blindness.' The huge and powerful army did not function for long hours, and the situation was saved by individuals who fought heroically and with almost bare hands, and miracles…
The lone tank that emerged from nowhere and saved Kibbutz Sa'ad; the helicopter that made an emergency landing with dozens of soldiers who saved Kfar Maimon; the emergency squad of Shlomit went out to fight in the neighboring community of Pri Gan, and their own community, which remained without a defensive force, was saved by a miracle because the terrorists forgot about it…
Already in the first war of the people of Israel, against Amalek's murderous attack, the need for faith and spiritual steadfastness in order to win was recognized. When the eyes of the fighters were lifted toward the hands of Moses raised in prayer, they prevailed!
First and foremost, God's help depends on the faith of the fighters and on their preserving their holiness, which brings about a situation in which 'the Lord your God walks in the midst of your camp to save you from your enemies,' and from this the fighters are commanded: 'And your camp shall be holy.'
Fighters filled with faith, who fight with courage and holiness, need to come out of serious Torah preparation, after having acquired a stable Torah and faith-based load, and out of an ongoing connection to the source of Torah, to the yeshivas from which they emerged and to which they will return after the army.
And as the sages said, 'Our feet stood' on the battlefield in the merit of 'your gates, O Jerusalem,' which stand in Torah and prayer.
There is a growing process, even in the Haredi public, of cautious and supervised integration into military life. See, for example, about 'Haredi hesder yeshivas' in the article 'Haredim Concerned for Their Future' (on the Arutz 7 website). The more mutual trust is built, the more the process will intensify; and conversely, coercive steps saturated with hatred and contempt will bring retreat, for 'as in water face answers to face, so the heart of man to man.'
With blessing, Fish"l
In paragraph 4, line 2
… and from this they are commanded…
The disgrace of organized Haredi draft-dodging is indeed the source of the trouble, but the disgrace also belongs to all the public leaders who allowed this disgusting abomination to continue until our day.
And for the sake of the 'principle of equality,' and to appease those who do not see Torah study as a national mission, it could be proposed that two or three years of Jewish studies, even outside a religious framework, be considered equivalent to a year of military service.
The logic is that knowledge of his people's heritage will strengthen a soldier's motivation. The more a soldier believes in the justice of his path, the more fiercely and forcefully he will fight for the defense of his people and his land.
Strengthening knowledge of the people's heritage means strengthening its security! True, there will be fewer soldiers in the standing army, but on the 'day of command' more will be called to the flag and will fight with greater determination!
With blessing, Fish"l
I would give them a separate territory in the Land of Israel, and after a year it would be possible to examine the results… (I assume the disasters would be because the Lithuanians / Hasidim / Shasniks, etc., were not God-fearing enough or something of that sort. The gates of excuses are never locked.)
Rabbi Mordechai Neugershal twists himself into knots for 40 minutes trying to explain "the Torah protects," etc. Despite his sharpness, he does not manage to persuade. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjoQWNPamLo
And here, in the last 2 minutes, Yaron Yadan on Haredi morality https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cITGJLBScM&list=PLzSV8q4a7WomKY07XQIpSfSvDrM2HMDpk&index=25&t=666s
With God's help, 19 Adar I 5784
To Rafi – many greetings,
History teaches that the Torah is what sustains the people of Israel. Mighty empires with mighty armies rose and fell, while the people of Israel have endured for more than three thousand years, though for most of that time the Jewish people had neither kingdom nor army, scattered, divided, and persecuted. It was the Torah that stood for us to preserve our existence.
A strong army helps fulfill the commandment of conquering the land and 'helping Israel from the hand of the oppressor,' but that itself requires support: national revival and military power without spiritual resilience, God forbid, wither and fall apart. Even kingdoms that began with great faith and devotion to Torah, such as the kingdom of David and Solomon and the Hasmonean kingdom, declined and disintegrated after a few decades because their spiritual resilience was lost.
A state and an army preserve existence and national honor when they find connection to the Torah. Body and soul must work together.
With blessing, Fish"l
Isn't there even one great Torah sage there for medicinal purposes who will say, "Guys, we've gone too far. Not only do we not work, not only do we not serve, but we also tell ourselves that we are protecting the people of Israel"?
Indeed, the Hazon Ish said that one who does not study in yeshiva is not entitled to register as a 'yeshiva student.' Deferment from the army was intended only for one whose 'Torah is his craft.' See the booklet Darkei Ish, the practices of the Hazon Ish recorded by his student R. Aharon Yeshaya Rotter (at the beginning of his book Sha'arei Aharon on Orach Chayim).
In the 1960s and 1970s, the 'Haredi Nahal' was established with the blessing and encouragement of great Torah sages to provide a framework for Haredi young men who enlist in the IDF. There was also, and still is, the 'Phase B' framework, in which married yeshiva students who studied for years in yeshivas enlist for a few months and then join the reserve system. Today there are already 'Haredi hesder yeshivas' (see the article 'Haredim Concerned for Their Future,' on the Arutz 7 website).
A strong and well-established Torah world can contribute its share to illuminate the army!
With blessing, Fish"l
Actually, this is a response to the article. There is no option to comment on the article, so it came out that I replied to you. In any case, thanks for answering.
I disagree with almost every comma of what you wrote, and if your answer is to go all the way back to the Hazon Ish to say that "whoever doesn't study should enlist," then the state of the Haredim is worse than I thought.
The positions of rabbis and halakhic decisors (who are not from the 'Haredi' sector) on the matter of 'postponing military service for yeshiva students,' such as Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook and Rabbi Haim David Halevi – are in my comments under the name 'Ein HaKorei' on Rabbi Michael Abraham's article, 'The Chief Rabbinate Elections and the Haredi Demonstration,' on the Shabbat Supplement website of Makor Rishon.
With blessing, Fish"l
To paraphrase Churchill's saying that the best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter, the best argument against the legend that studying Gemara sharpens the mind is a five-minute conversation with the average Haredi.
But anyone who knows Haredi society should not be surprised.
Although this way of life was developed and perfected mainly among the Lithuanian Haredi public, it has seeped into other groups too, even if it is not expressed there with the same bluntness.
From his earliest days, the typical Lithuanian Haredi boy is educated for a life of parasitism and dependence on others, and this has absolutely nothing to do with secular people. A Haredi post-high-school yeshiva is a respectable euphemism for a summer camp; if a Haredi boy wants to spend his youth in total idleness, there is no factor that will interfere with his doing so.
Until a few years ago, Lithuanian Haredi society was educating twenty-something children who had not worked a day in their lives, and likely could not handle a single shift at a phone stand in a mall in Nahariya, to demand apartments in central Jerusalem or Bnei Brak as a condition for a date.
People died because of these things, and not as a metaphor.
The average Lithuanian kollel avrech who delivers pathos-filled speeches about the promiscuity in the army (of course he has never been in the army, but he is a regular reader of conspiracy pamphlets beside which The Protocols of the Elders of Zion looks like a rather nice and coherent book) sends his wife without batting an eyelid to work at Microsoft or Google or some government office, places crawling with awful terrible secular people – but the main thing is that in the end she brings home a good salary. And there, for some reason, there is no fear of the innocent and pure Bais Yaakov girl getting corrupted, or else that fear is pushed aside by the salary at the end of the month.
Corona proved that this is not about enlistment and not about fear of secularization. It is simply a mentality that will always find the excuse not to bear the burden together with the rest of society. If there were a drop of decency in this society, at least they would give up the welfare budgets they take; then one might be able to live with it. But please, do not make them laugh.
With God's help, 20 Adar I 5784
To Itai – many greetings,
A. I do not know the Lithuanian Torah world from the inside, but the Lithuanian yeshivas and kollels have a good reputation as places where Torah is invested in and studied with diligence, depth, and a high level.
B. To the extent that there is concern about secularization or cooling influence in a secular workplace, that is not comparable to the concerns that exist in the army. One arrives at a workplace at an older age and after prior preparation, and one is there only for a few hours, at the end of which one returns home. The concern is far greater when one is present 24/7 in a demanding and pressuring framework. A workplace can be left if one sees that there is a problem, whereas one cannot leave a military framework.
This is why the religious-Zionist public agrees to 'national service' but opposes service by girls within a binding military framework. And even in the service of boys, there is an advantage to 'hesder,' where one serves a shorter period and in the company of Torah students – and even then, perhaps.
With blessing, Fish"l
In paragraph 2, line 2
… and after prior preparation, and one is there…
No one claimed otherwise.
My claim is that in the yeshiva world there is no supervision or any binding schedule, tests, or meeting targets, and therefore anyone who wants to loaf about has nothing to stop him. Boys can avoid setting foot in the study hall for long months and even years, and no one will say a word to them.
B. So why don't the Haredim set up some kind of hesder track that, by your account, overcomes the problems? Why was an initiative to establish an emergency squad in Kiryat Sefer – something absolutely needed because of the town's proximity to hostile villages – rejected with contempt?
Can a married Haredi man over thirty not learn to fire a weapon and serve in an emergency squad with Haredim like himself? Even there he might get corrupted? Does it seem normal to the residents of Kiryat Sefer that a battalion of soldiers sits for three months and guards them while they themselves do not lift a finger? Why? Because they (careful, a generalization) have lived this way from a young age. A yeshiva boy is not required to clear away the plate he eats from, or even tidy his room – what are Sudanese for? He gets an apartment from the father-in-law, a livelihood from his wife, support and discounts from the state or from benefactors in America, and every price increase in a bottle of sugary drink sends him into anxiety as if he were a resident of Kibbutz Be'eri fighting terrorists who invaded his home. And if you ask, all that you described is the lot of the Lithuanian public; what about Hasidim and Sephardim? Well, the Lithuanian sector is very dominant and drags the other two sectors after it in many ways. For years the army has been a symbol of some secular place that Haredim do not go near – but is it more secular than a thousand and one ultra-secular places in which Haredim circulate? Apparently not. But a symbol is a symbol. In the end I stand by my opinion that this is a mentality that each time will hang itself on different excuses, and Corona proved that.
I am Haredi and I identify with the anger and frustration over Haredi draft-dodging. On the other hand, I identify with the Haredi fear of integration into a secular army. Part of the religious-Zionist public dismisses this fear because in its eyes the price of spiritual decline is not such a terrible price, and part of it does not dismiss the fear but believes that the goal of building the state and the land is so lofty that it is worth the heavy price. The Haredi outlook strongly opposes the view of the first part, and there is no need to explain why; and it disagrees with the view of the second part because in its eyes building the state and the land do not stand at the top of the scale of values. If the choice before them were between spiritual decline for the sake of building the land and emigration abroad, they would undoubtedly prefer the second option.
My criticism of the Haredi approach is that, in the current situation, in which there are tens of thousands of Haredi young men of draft age, there is no obstacle whatsoever to creating an independent Haredi framework that would contribute its share in defense without endangering spirituality (I assume many Hardalim would join such an initiative). The Haredim are clearly not trying to find a solution to the matter because they are unable to climb down from the tree they climbed up over 75 years of the state's existence, and as long as they do not pay a price for not creating a solution to the problem, they have no incentive to solve it. (Of course there is the flimsy excuse that Torah protects, etc., but that too is because they do not pay a price for it. After all, in elections, where they would pay a price if they did not vote, it is permitted to interrupt Torah study.)
And here I come to a great puzzle about the general public, which does not try a simple direction to solve the problem: by creating a basic change in the system, in a way that would replace the current socialist reality with a simple and healthy capitalist logic. Instead of every resident of the state receiving protection automatically, and then arguments and quarrels beginning over whether he contributes enough or not, one should treat protection like any other service: whoever pays receives it; whoever does not pay does not receive it. In such a situation, the Haredim would have to decide among themselves whether they want the service or not (and I assume with quite great confidence that they do), and all the idle discussions would simply become irrelevant, just as they are irrelevant for buying groceries.
Come on, really. That is outright denial of what one can see with one's own eyes. It is not a conspiracy theory. It is a simple truth. For decades they have been appointing only people who resemble them, regardless of the makeup of the soldiers in the army. The IDF is definitely not a reflection of those who serve in it. And that is also the heart of the matter. This is simply not the state of anyone who is not from the left. Right-wing people will not fight against crazy Jews. For that they have neither strength nor motivation.
With God's help, 20 Adar I 5784
To Itai – many greetings,
The yeshiva has a supreme interest in its students' diligently toiling in Torah and deepening their study of it. There are strict entrance exams, and there is a daily schedule including study sessions and classes spanning the entire day, from morning until late at night. Unlike in academic institutions, the educational staff has daily familiarity with and follow-up on their students' diligence and progress in study, and the results attest to this.
Naturally, there are students who do not succeed in reaching the required diligence. They have an answer in the form of the 'Haredi Nahal,' founded in the 1950s by great Torah sages and revived by Rabbi Yoel Schwartz of blessed memory about twenty-five years ago.
From long ago there has also been the 'Phase B' framework, which provides an answer for married yeshiva students who studied for many years in yeshiva and want to enter the labor market. They enlist for a few months and receive basic military training, after which they join the reserve system. Thus did the undersigned, who enlisted at age 29 for four months in which he underwent basic training and a combat medic course, and for 17 years served in the reserves as a medic attached to armor and artillery units that carried out routine security activity in Judea and Samaria.
For the past nine years, 'Haredi hesder yeshivas' have been renewed, numbering hundreds of students. See about them on Wikipedia under the entry 'Derech Chaim – Haredi Hesder Yeshiva,' in the article 'Derech Chaim – A Technological Haredi Hesder Yeshiva' on the Ministry of Defense website, and in the article 'Haredim Concerned for Their Future' on the Arutz 7 website.
Obviously, relations of trust with the army would advance these processes, which also arise from an internal Haredi need to increase the number of 'Zebuluns' in their society, but attempts to change Haredi society by coercion and out of hatred and contempt.
When a Haredi sees the hatred and contempt being poured out on the religious-Zionists, who sacrifice themselves above and beyond in integrating into the army, and who 'merit' former generals speaking of them as carriers of the virus of religionization and extremism, defining them as 'sub-human' and proposing to give them 're-education' in the army – it is hard for a 'Haredi mother' to trust such officers.
With blessing, Fish"l
Another possible direction for integrating Haredim was mapped out for us by Mr. Yair Lapid through personal example. If a writer for Bamahaneh is considered as serving the nation, why should the share of one who serves as a writer for Bamahaneh HaHaredi and the like be any less? 🙂
Paragraph 5, line 3
… by coercion and out of hatred and contempt – bring about regression in the development of the integration processes.
An excessive solution. The best thing is simply to stop funding the yeshivas; only that way will they understand.
Posting here an interview with Rabbi David Bloch, may he live long and well
https://youtu.be/EF2u-PdCFjE
A quote from the article:
You have never encountered in your life a weighty subject that you could not cope with and understand because of its difficulty. A topic in mathematics or physics, beside which one analysis of Rabbi Akiva Eiger is something at the difficulty level of a child.
I heard from you many years ago (in one of the classes on the roots of the Rambam) that you found, from your reading of Rabbi Akiva Eiger's analyses, that he was a much better mathematician than you are. So I do not understand why you decided to bring him as an unsuccessful analogy in this whipping.
I do not remember saying that, but perhaps. In any case, it is irrelevant here.
First, the fact that he is better than me does not mean he is better than Einstein.
Second, complexity is not depth.
And third, this is not a whipping but a description of reality. And it is an excellent analogy.
That too is an unsuccessful example, as that fellow said when he met the Rogatchover: from the Rogatchover's head one could hew three Einsteins, and from the excess left over another 100 maskilim.
Those tall tales are very characteristic of people who never met Einstein and never studied his theory. That is part of creating the thesis I set out against, which naturally arises inside a bubble, where someone who lives in it does not understand that he is in a bubble.
The company's place of business is in Israel, and therefore it pays tax in Israel; the argument itself is incorrect.
There may be a situation in which the company is registered abroad, and then indeed it will be taxed abroad, but the salaries are taxed in Israel.
That was said by someone from the world you came from, who did meet Einstein and his theory, whom you glorify and who is brought only in the sense of "the evil angel answers amen against his will." Obviously neither he, nor Einstein and his crowd, interest me in daily life (as human beings). Actually, I was just thinking now while sitting on the toilet (between one reply and another to your response): what changed between Akiva the ignoramus, whom one speaks of after leaving Bnei Akiva and who became Rabbi Akiva, who when he was still there in the dark days said, "Who will give me a Haredi avrech, a Torah scholar, and I will bite him like a donkey" (because its bite breaks bones, unlike a dog's bite, which does not break bones) – how did such a thing happen, that changed his view by one hundred and eighty degrees, and after he was burned, of course, he became none other than one of those he hated? What caused this fascinating phenomenon? You will agree איתי that this is no longer just tall tales. If you can solve this for me, I will easily lay out for you the answers to your claims above one by one.
There is also the argument of "a thousand for each tribe" – that for every combat soldier you need 1,000 yeshiva boys, or some other imaginary number of Torah learners.
But Rabbi Akiva had 24,000 students, and according to Rav Sherira Gaon they died in the Bar Kokhba war, in which Rabbi Akiva was his armor-bearer. If so, where were the 1,000 students for every one of Rabbi Akiva's soldiers?
Supposedly there should have been only 24 soldiers, opposite whom 24,000 were studying, but I doubt that was in fact what happened. And if we assume that it was, perhaps that is a good reason for the war's failure.
Roughly half of the state's exports come from high-tech.
Even if they were not paying taxes (and they are), the fact that they convert dollars into shekels gives value to the shekels the state prints (the cost of printing shekels is negligible), and thanks to them the state can pay salaries in the colored paper it prints (again, at almost no cost), and state employees and welfare recipients can exchange the colored papers for cars, televisions, medicines, fuel, airline tickets, food, etc., all of which come from abroad.
"On the contrary, if you have an idea for improving the army's effectiveness and efficiency, by all means enlist and cooperate in order to improve the situation." – that does not seem like a serious argument. The enlistment of the Haredi public will not give them a foothold in running the army. The religious-Zionist public enlists en masse, and its influence on the quality of conduct is nil.
"Haredi armchair experts explain to us that there is actually no need for soldiers, and in general there is a surplus in the IDF" – I do not know what Haredi armchair experts say, but the recruitment data and Yitzhak Brik's reports certainly do say that. From 2000 until now, draft cohorts have risen by 40%, and dozens of combat battalions have been cut.
There is the Old Yishuv Haredim, who are in the country with no connection to the Zionist movement (and some of whom are descendants of Jews who lived in the land even before it). They opposed the establishment of the state and tried to reach understandings with the Arabs (the murder of De Haan). To demand that they serve in the army would be unjust. They opposed Zionism and foresaw the Jewish-Arab conflict that would be caused, and now those who caused the conflict would demand that they sacrifice their lives for it.
The Old Yishuv also does not take budgets from the state, does not vote in elections, and is not what people are discussing here, and no one will demand that they enlist. Though they may have National Insurance, and I truly have no idea why they are given that.
Hello, I am from the Old Yishuv (I live in the Meah Shearim neighborhood in Jerusalem), and I join Yitzhak's words (at 19:49). In my view this is a justified argument!
The justification for demanding that they not take budgets will be when they are also exempted from taxes. Today most members of the Old Yishuv work and pay taxes.
Without getting into our context, this response fills me with great sadness. The Old Yishuv has not existed from time immemorial, but is based mostly on waves of immigration that preceded "Zionism" yet wanted to establish a Jewish settlement here, and in practice were Zionists (though there are ideological differences between them and what is mostly called Zionism today). How did the Old Yishuv become a refuge for a conception that estranges itself from the rest of the people living in the land and blames us for our enemies' hatred of us? Is this what those immigrants, in their self-sacrifice in immigrating for the sake of the whole people of Israel, intended? Obviously it is easier to manage "diplomatically" and by intercession with the Arabs when the settlement is small and threatens no one, but was it not clear to everyone that once the settlement grew significantly (which was the dream of those immigration waves), it would be impossible to manage in ways suited to a small community?
The Old Yishuv loved Zion and therefore immigrated to the Holy Land, but it certainly was and remained exilic. You are speaking מתוך a modern worldview, but one must not forget that this was then a colonial world; the land was ruled by foreign powers, and whoever came here came in order to live under their rule, so that the question of numbers was irrelevant.
This whole bizarre discussion about the Old Yishuv is irrelevant to us. What I wrote dealt with the Haredim who are politically organized. What is called the Old Yishuv is a negligible minority (I do not know whether they are even one percent of all Haredim) that nobody is talking about. Who cares at all what a few eccentric people on the margins of the state do?!
Beyond that, as far as I know, the vast majority of this negligible minority also definitely enjoys state/municipal services, such as healthcare, roads, garbage removal, National Insurance, and the like. Therefore they too need to bear the duties like everyone else. Even on the level of private individuals, this is the rule of one who benefits from descending into another's field: even if without permission, he pays for the benefit he received.
If they want to remain extra-territorial, that requires some agreement with the state. Unorganized groups do not have group rights. A private person who is within territory over which a state has sovereignty is supposed to obey its laws. That is how it is all over the world. A private person cannot prevent sovereignty or impose a veto on it.
Apparently the core of the Old Yishuv numbers 5% of the Haredi public (in 2008 there were, according to estimates, 7,000-9,000 families https://web.archive.org/web/20160303213841/http://www.peopleil.org/details.aspx?itemID=7728)
The Old Yishuv has broader circles, for example Brisk Yeshiva, which today numbers thousands of students and community members (most of whom, by the way, are also not citizens), who have always identified with the anti-Zionist ideology.
Most members of the Old Yishuv and the affiliated communities do not abstain from state budgets (from the extremists who will not go to a health fund, to the more open ones who just will not take for institutions).
Most of them pay taxes like every citizen and therefore are supposed to receive services from the state like every citizen.
They feel no gratitude to the army because they opposed and oppose the state, and the whole Jewish-Arab conflict would have been avoided without Zionism, so the army is simply dealing with the problems the state created.
An analogy I once gave was of Reuven and Shimon standing atop a tower, and Shimon, in mischief, threw a stone at the head of Shechem, the neighborhood bully. Even though Shechem will come up and beat both of them, it would be utterly unjust to ask Reuven to fight Shechem; by rights Shimon should go down and fight his war with Shechem without involving Reuven in his war.
Military service is also a tax. They can receive budgets, but not ones specially designated for the Haredi sector. Besides, most of them presumably work off the books.
As the wise man said:
Do not argue with a fool; he will drag you down to his level, and there he will defeat you with ease.
That is how the Haredim are: they drag the discussion into a whirlpool of nonsense and delusions, and now go deal with the collection of fabrications and lies they have managed to convince themselves of.