Interview on London and Kirschenbaum about Evolution – Rabbi Michael Abraham
This transcript was produced automatically using artificial intelligence. There may be inaccuracies in the transcribed content and in speaker identification.
🔗 Link to the original lecture
🔗 Link to the transcript on Sofer.AI
Table of Contents
- [0:00] The absence of teaching evolution in schools
- [1:52] God as the creator of laws for an evolutionary process
- [3:19] Extreme groups surrounding the issue of evolution
- [4:38] Closing the conversation and thanks
Summary
General Overview
In the main news edition on Channel 10, it was said that less and less, if at all, the theory of evolution is being taught in the Israeli education system. Rabbi Michael Abraham, a physicist from Bar-Ilan University and author of the book God Plays Dice, argues that there is no necessary connection between religious faith and accepting evolution, and that creation can be understood as the creation of laws that generate an evolutionary process. He describes a tension fueled by fanatics on both sides and proposes an educational solution: teaching evolution and the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) while exposing students to all interpretive possibilities and leaving the thinking in their hands.
The decline in teaching evolution in the education system
Our education correspondent, Omri Meniv, reports here on the main Channel 10 edition that less and less, if at all, the theory of evolution is being taught in the Israeli education system—the theory that says we all originated from the ape through evolutionary development. It was said that they would soon try to understand this theory through a conversation with Rabbi Michael Abraham.
Religious faith, the creation of the world, and evolution
Michael Abraham says that not only can the two go together, but that there is actually no connection between them. He explains that on factual questions he uses scientific tools, without blind trust but with a basic confidence in those tools. He says that if the assumption in the scientific community is that evolution describes the way we appeared here on the stage, then that is probably correct. He divides the question into two planes: the existence of God and the detailed description of creation in the Torah, and determines that with respect to belief in God, it is unrelated, while the question of the detailed description is a separate matter.
What does it mean “to create,” and how does that relate to natural laws?
Abraham says that he believes God created the world, and the question is what it means to create the world. He states that producing laws that generate an evolutionary process also counts as creating the world, and clarifies that it is not the world itself, but the laws within which the world operates, that generate an evolutionary process. He adds that according to his belief, the one who created the world and the laws within it is responsible for this whole thing.
No dependence between atheism and accepting evolution
Abraham argues that the stronger claim is that there is no connection: you can be an atheist and not accept evolution, and you can be a believer and still accept evolution. He mentions that the heralds of the Enlightenment in the West were in fact good Christians who believed.
The tension imported from Christianity and the Jewish world
Abraham says that part of the tension on this issue is imported to us from Christianity, where there is a very strong dissonance or conflict between Christians and rebels against Christianity. He notes that evolution appeared in the nineteenth century, when the church was no longer so powerful, but the remnants of those tensions remain to this day and somehow get imported into the Jewish world. He says that the Jewish world is generally not so troubled by this question, even if not everyone has answers to every detail.
Political tension, fanaticism, and the disappearance of the middle ground
A case is brought up involving the stalactite cave, where they suddenly erased the date of the cave’s formation because it contradicted what is written in the Torah—the accepted dating. Abraham says there is tension, perhaps at the political level, and adds that it takes two to tango, and that this tension is created by two fanatical groups. He describes secular atheist fanatics who believe in neo-Darwinism such that any injury to a detail or any doubt cast on it strikes at the apple of their eye, and on the other side religious Jewish or Christian fanatics for whom any statement that does not fit their tradition strikes at the apple of their eye. He argues that the two groups feed each other, that the middle ground where most of us are has disappeared, and that all you hear are these combative voices that refuse to let the other voice be heard.
Education: teach everything, evolution and interpretations of the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh)
Abraham says that he recommends his children learn everything, and proposes as a solution a program that teaches evolution together with all possible interpretations, while allowing the teacher to express his opinion, as in many contentious subjects, whether in a religious school or a secular school. He says it is proper to expose students to all interpretations and leave the student to think. He adds that even in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh), people study according to a very particular interpretation depending on the educational stream; he opposes that and argues that all interpretations should be taught and the student left to think.
Full Transcript
[Speaker A] Last night, our education correspondent Omri Meniv reported here on the main edition on Channel 10 that less and less, if at all, the theory of evolution is being taught in the Israeli education system—the theory that says we all come from the ape through evolutionary development. In just a moment we’ll try to understand this theory. We’re speaking now with Rabbi Michael Abraham. On the one hand, he’s a physicist from Bar-Ilan University, and on the other hand, as you can see, he is a God-fearing Jew and the author of the book God Plays Dice. And you’re basically saying that these can go together: religious faith, and belief perhaps in the Jewish story of the creation of the world, and of course the study of evolution.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Yes. That is, I think it’s more than just being able to go together—there’s no connection.
[Speaker A] How do you reconcile that within yourself? Meaning, let’s ask simply: where do we come from—from the ape or from God?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Look, my personal position is that on factual questions I use the tools appropriate for dealing with factual questions—that is, scientific tools. Science can make mistakes; I don’t have blind faith in science, but I do have a basic trust in those tools. And if the assumption in the scientific community is that evolution basically describes how we appeared here on the stage, then that’s probably true.
[Speaker A] So how do you reconcile that with the story of the creation of the world in the book of Genesis?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] There are two planes here, or two possible contradictions between faith and evolution. One plane is the existence of God, and the second plane is the detailed description of creation in the Torah. So as against belief in God, it really isn’t connected. These are two completely different things.
[Speaker A] Meaning, you believe in God, but you don’t believe that He created the world and man.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] No, I do believe that He created the world. The whole question is what it means to create the world. That is, to produce laws that generate an evolutionary process—that too is called creating the world.
[Speaker A] Meaning, God created the world, and the world created the evolutionary process, if I try to translate you.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] No, not the world. Rather, the laws within which the world operates generate an evolutionary process. But who is responsible for all of this? The one who created the world and the laws within it, in my belief. Now even if you don’t accept that, and even if you do accept it, the stronger claim is that there is no connection. Meaning, you can be an atheist and not accept evolution; you can be a believer and accept evolution.
[Speaker A] And it should be mentioned that the heralds of the Enlightenment in the West were actually good Christians, and they believed.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Right. And I think that part of the tension on this issue is imported to us from Christianity, where there is some very strong dissonance or conflict between Christians and rebels against Christianity, who today aren’t really rebels anymore—they already have enough standing, enough freedom.
[Speaker A] Starting from, let’s say, the twelfth century and the study of evolution?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] No, that’s much later. I’m talking about—the theory of evolution appeared in the nineteenth century, and by then the church was no longer so strong. Today it’s even less strong. But the remnants of those tensions have remained to this day, and somehow they get imported into the Jewish world. The Jewish world is generally not so troubled by this question. That doesn’t mean everyone has answers to every detail, but basically the approach is—
[Speaker A] Did you see the story about the stalactite cave, where they suddenly erased the date of the formation of the stalactite cave because it contradicted what is written in the Torah? The accepted dating, that is.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Look, the point is this, there is—
[Speaker A] So yes, there is tension between these things, maybe on the political level.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] There is tension. The point is this: it takes two to tango. This tension is created by two religious groups—the religious fanatics who believe in evolution or in neo-Darwinism, such that if you attack some detail or dare say something that casts doubt on the matter—
[Speaker A] Namely the secular atheists.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] You’ve struck at the apple of their eye, some of them. And then there are the religious fanatics—the Jewish religious ones or the Christian religious ones—where if you say something that doesn’t fit their tradition, you’ve struck at the apple of their eye as well. And again, you are an Orthodox Jew by your appearance. And I think these two groups feed one another, and the whole middle ground, which I think is where most of us are, disappears. Meaning, all you hear are these combative voices, and what they have in common is that neither is willing to let the other voice be heard.
[Speaker A] What do you teach your children, simply speaking?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Look, I’m not all that involved in teaching my children material, but in terms of what I lay out before them and what I recommend they study, I recommend that they study everything. I think the obvious solution to this tension is to offer a program that teaches evolution together with all the interpretive possibilities. Let the student think. The teacher can also express his opinion, as in many contentious subjects, by the way, whether in a religious school or in a secular school. I think it is proper to expose students to all the interpretations.
[Speaker A] We study the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh), right?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Yes, but we study the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) according to a very particular interpretation, depending on the educational stream. By the way, I oppose that. I think all the interpretations should be taught, and the student should be left to think.
[Speaker A] Thank you very much, Rabbi Michael Abraham. Thank you very much for this interesting conversation. We’re heading to our first break and will be back in just a moment.