Q&A: Puzzlement about the Rabbi’s approach toward LGBT people
Puzzlement about the Rabbi’s approach toward LGBT people
Question
Hello Rabbi Michi.
In the latest column about LGBT people, and in several other columns on the subject in the past where you wrote more extensively, you wrote that in your opinion there is no principled obstacle (on the secular-moral plane, on the plane of basic decency) to recognizing trans men and trans women as women/men. And that even from a halakhic-religious standpoint, although the surgery is initially forbidden under the prohibition of castration, it may be that after the fact one can recognize the person who underwent surgery as belonging to the sex to which they ostensibly transitioned, and perhaps even before that, if they appear outwardly as male or female, they should be treated as such in certain areas of synagogue roles, regarding marriage, and the like, since there is no principled prohibition about this in the Talmud—because in its time this phenomenon did not exist. You are admittedly not rushing to permit it and declare that a male who identifies as a woman is, in your view, permitted to marry a man or be in the women’s section, but you only write that perhaps there is room for this and that the matter requires a non-emotional discussion.
I am puzzled by your approach from two angles:
On the plane of basic decency, you wrote in the past that from your perspective Jewish identity, in its value-laden and essential sense, is the observance of Jewish law out of the command of the Holy One, blessed be He, and nothing more. Culturally, you added that perhaps one can be a traditional atheist, in the manner of Ahad Ha’am. And that indeed is something that can exist in reality, but it is an identity empty of real value-content, only emotional and nothing more. You added that of course there is such a thing as a Jew in the ethnic sense. But you mocked those who try to invent the creature called secular Judaism—there is no such thing in your view, because for the most part these are universal values, and the fact that Jews practice them and call them Jewish values is meaningless.
Do you not find similar flaws in the whole issue of trans identity? Many feminists argue that the only objective thing that can define what a woman is is someone’s biological reality as a woman. The other things—such as sensitivity, a tendency to wear dresses, to have intimate conversations, or anything else more common among women—cannot legally and judicially grant a man dressed as a woman the right to enter changing rooms, women’s restrooms, or participate in women’s sports and receive scholarships intended for women. And men can do anything feminine while still being men, and vice versa, because these things are not absolute to any particular sex.
Does the fact that trans men and trans women have no objective definition but only an undefined mental feeling not place them under the same flaw that you described among those who try to pour objective, value-laden content into “secular Judaism”?
And in practice, how do you think one can decide the question of the participation of a woman identifying as a man in forums and spaces for men only, and vice versa, if the other people present do not accept that “identity”?
From a halakhic standpoint—even if there is no formal prohibition in the Talmud specifically regarding those who experience gender dysphoria—on the other hand there are many prohibitions regarding dress and imitating the opposite sex. Is it not more reasonable to say that, at the very least, the Sages would certainly not look favorably on such a phenomenon?
And regarding the LGBT community in general: you wrote that from your point of view, granting LGBT people recognition of civil rights as a community and granting an individual LGBT person those same rights is one and the same. From a purely religious standpoint, is there no prohibition in expressing support—or giving even a symbolic sum—to a community that openly says it sees the joyful realization of forbidden relationships as something positive, out of its secularity? In other words, is there no purely formal prohibition in supporting or donating to such a community? (As distinct from helping and giving support to an individual, who certainly has rights in a democratic state, and in our times, when providence is not manifest, as the Hazon Ish wrote, and so on.)
Answer
I do not recall having made this depend on surgery. I argued that there is substantial room for the reasoning that certain laws depend on gender and not on biological sex.
I hope you understood your own pilpul that ties this to my argument about secular Jewish identity. I did not understand it. I suggest you spare us these strange analogies and ask the question directly, if indeed there is one. Phrase it briefly and clearly.
Discussion on Answer
You moved to completely different questions. In fact, you moved from objections to questions, and they are also completely different.
1. I explained everything in the columns I wrote on the subject. How is this related to religious and halakhic views? I am against allowing them to disturb other people.
2. I do not know what “the spirit of the Sages” is, and it does not really interest me. This is a factual phenomenon, so I do not see how the spirit of the Sages is relevant to the matter.
3. A strange question. A person’s identity is by its nature a psychological matter. Besides, here it has implications. I do not understand what you want.
Hello Rabbi Michi,
My puzzlement is that you did not explicitly write what, in your opinion, the practical moral implications are that we should adopt in light of recognizing this identity, since the issue is a public issue, and also an issue of interpersonal relations. You did not write whether in your opinion it would be proper for women’s restrooms to be accessible to trans women, and likewise men’s restrooms for trans men. You did not write whether in your opinion it would be proper to integrate trans men into men’s sports and help them integrate, and likewise women’s sports for trans women. In short, is it proper to support trans activism? That is where the issue of recognition is significant and pressing. Because how a person refers to himself, and what hobbies he engages in privately, is less troubling to those who argue against this identity, and many liberals and conservatives—even religious ones—also oppose violence against trans men and trans women, even though some of them protest the phenomenon very sharply. Of course, it is your right to choose the point that is critical in your eyes and address it—and if from your perspective the critical thing is only to write about the very recognition that such a mental-psychological phenomenon exists and is not deception, then I have nothing to say about that. It simply seemed puzzling to me, because that is usually not your style of thinking. But let us agree to disagree. Have a good day.
Indeed, tremendous puzzlement. I dealt with what I found appropriate, namely the principled plane. The implications are quite self-evident, and if there is already tremendous puzzlement, then in my opinion it is that you are unable to understand them on your own from what I wrote.
What does everything I wrote have to do with the question of trans people participating in sports competitions, women’s restrooms, or women’s changing rooms? I suggest that instead of being tremendously puzzled, you try to think and you will immediately realize the self-evident answers.
Okay, Michi.
My questions briefly are these:
1. On the level of recognizing trans identity (meaning treating a biological male as a woman if he identifies that way, and vice versa): what are the practical implications of this recognition? In other words, forms of address and ID registration are only marginal things, and there is a desire among them to participate in workshops intended only for members of the opposite sex, public restrooms designated for the opposite sex, and so on. If “someone” identifies as a trans woman but the members of her community do not see her as such, and vice versa (someone identifies as a trans man and members of his community do not see him as such), do you morally support their struggle to be treated as such in all areas of life (on the plane of human morality before we even get to the halakhic plane)?
2. On the halakhic plane, do you not think that at the very least the spirit of the Sages is not comfortable with this phenomenon?
3. The comparison to secular Judaism was meant to say that I am puzzled that here, in the case of trans identity, you grant very great validity to a psychological experience, whereas in many cases you tend to say that it means nothing if it has no practical or value-laden implications.