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Q&A: Between Christianity and Judaism

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Between Christianity and Judaism

Question

Hello Rabbi!
A. Regarding what Maimonides wrote against Christianity—that to say of the Trinity itself that one is three and three is one is a mistake, because it contradicts logic; but to say that the splitting of the Red Sea happened contradicts nature, and with that there is no problem—does the Rabbi agree with this claim?
B. Does the Rabbi have an article on Christianity in relation to Israel, or even in general?

Answer

A. If I understood your question, you are drawing the distinction between a logical contradiction and a physical contradiction. I discussed this in my book Two Carts (Gate 13, I think). I definitely agree. And I believe Rashba wrote similarly in responsa, vol. 4, no. 334.

B. I don’t have an article on Christianity, and in my opinion the whole involvement with this topic is unnecessary and foolish. First, because there is no mass movement of Jews becoming Christians. Second, because any treatment of it will be biased and rather foolish, since it is treatment from the outside (roughly like treatments of Judaism from the outside). It reminds me of an article in Tzohar (issue 1 or 2) that brought passages from a book by Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook about Christianity. He brings passages from the New Testament and comments on them. I practically died laughing when I read it. Real nonsense. He raises difficulties on the New Testament from Ketzot and points out contradictions. There are contradictions a thousand times more blatant in our own writings, when you look at them from the outside without the sympathy of a believer that leads you to pilpulistic reconciliations. Exactly the same way, Christians can reconcile the contradictions in their writings and not be impressed at all by outside criticism.

In general, quite a few Christian ideas exist אצלנו in a very similar form. Except that with us you are used to them and sympathetic, and you know and recite the accepted hair-splitting reconciliations. That is the whole difference. “The Holy One, blessed be He, Israel, and the Torah are one”—do you know that? Does that remind you of anything? And I seem to recall hearing once in the name of the Arizal that this is meant quite literally. And what about “the commandments will be nullified in the future to come”—know that one? So for Christians, the “future to come” has already arrived with the coming of their messiah, and therefore the commandments were nullified. And what about transferring the service from the firstborn to the priests—know that? So in the same way, one could say that He transferred His choice from Israel to the Christians. The whole difference is the question of what you feel sympathy toward and what you do not. They do not have contradictions or stupidities any greater than ours.

Therefore I suggest leaving the Christians to their faith and us to ours, and stopping these foolish arguments. All the contradictions in their writings can be reconciled just fine, I promise you. There are quite a few Christians who are very learned and highly talented, no less than Maimonides or Rabbi Akiva Eiger. So it is not likely that you are going to catch them on nonsense. These arguments are intended inwardly (to show the masses of the Jewish people, who lack confidence and education, how smart we are and how stupid the others are). Someone who lacks confidence needs to build his identity on negating the other, but that means his condition is rather bleak.
——————————————————————————————
Questioner:
Hello Rabbi!
A. True, there is no mass movement, but there are videos on YouTube by Jewish missionaries who draw Jews toward Christianity on that same principle you spoke about (negating the other), and my secular friends have even started bringing quotations about why Christianity is more credible.
B. If I understood your answer, then question A that I asked also has no real standing at all.
C. If Christian issues don’t bother you: 1. Then why are you a believing Jew—is it only because you were born that way?
2. So are you a pluralist?
D. I would have preferred that a rabbi in Israel not speak in such a dismissive way about the great Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda Kook of blessed memory, even if your opinion contradicts his position.
Thanks, and forgive me.
——————————————————————————————
Rabbi:
A. And therefore? If someone raises an argument, it can be dealt with. But arguments for and against Christianity and Judaism, especially pointing out contradictions, are completely foolish. When your secular friends let you know that they are convinced and are going to convert to Christianity—you can send them to me.
B. I didn’t understand that remark. I’d be happy if you would explain what you mean (not just point to question A or B, because I don’t keep all the many exchanges here straight in my head).
C. I am a believing Jew because that is what seems reasonable and logical to me. On the other hand, it may be that if I had been born Christian, that too would have seemed logical to me. I am not at all sure there is absolute truth here, since it may be that from the perspective of the Holy One, blessed be He, each person is supposed to do what seems reasonable to him. Exclusive discourse (that A is true and B is not, heresy and not heresy, and so on) is mainly for internal needs.
2. I tend toward pluralism in religious contexts. Objectivity exists on the moral and factual plane. There there is only one truth.
D. My opinion does not contradict his position, since I did not see a position there. I believe roughly what he believed, except that his arguments against the Christians, and the very discussion and method, seem foolish and ridiculous to me.
With pleasure,
——————————————————————————————
Questioner:
A. If you say it is not relevant to point out contradictions in Christianity, then saying that the Trinity is a logical contradiction also has no basis.
B. If you say one should not point out contradictions at all between Christianity and Judaism, then it is not relevant at all to say there are contradictions within Judaism itself either, and that too is foolish.
C. On what basis does the Rabbi make these distinctions—when I am a pluralist and when not? It sounds absurd.
D. Does the Rabbi know the book The Dimensions of Prophecy by Rabbi Shem Tov Gafni, and what is his opinion of the book regarding mathematics and physics?
——————————————————————————————
Rabbi:
A. No belief as such is a logical contradiction, because these things depend on interpretation. To say 3=1 is a logical contradiction, but that is not the Trinity. And that is exactly what I said.
B. I did not say one should not point out contradictions, but that there is no point in pointing out contradictions, because every contradiction is interpretation-dependent. What I wrote was that if you call the Trinity a contradiction, then by your approach the Zoharic statement “The Holy One, blessed be He, the Torah, and Israel are one” is also a contradiction. In my view, neither this nor that is a contradiction, and I added that it is foolish to think so. Contrary to what Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda tried to show, these are not fools. They are no less intelligent than he was, and certainly did not fall into such silly contradictions. Intelligent people do not just speak nonsense, even if they are Christians. That is definitely not where you are going to catch them. Some of the greatest scholars and philosophers of all generations were devout Christians, so it is arrogant foolishness to think you can catch them on that.
C. To each his own taste. I claim there is a difference between morality and facts, where there is one truth, and claims about the manner of religious worship, which can depend on the person and his environment. There is no contradiction and no problem with such a statement, but whoever sees that as absurd need not accept it.
D. I know the book, and of course it is outdated, but very interesting and original. I remember that its language in the second essay was not clear to me (I did not understand what the “ha” was that he keeps discussing all the time).
——————————————————————————————
Questioner:
Hello Rabbi!

Regarding the discussion we had about Christianity and contradictions, despite that I saw a YouTube video by Messianic Jews pointing out problems with the Oral Torah.
A. It is never mentioned in the Torah, and only by way of hint did they expound the verse “according to” as referring to the Oral Torah; and also “according to all that they instruct you” refers only to the officers themselves and to the religious court for ruling, but there is no obligation to listen to the rabbis themselves—that is their own invention.
B. According to the Talmud, Bava Metzia 59b, in the story of the oven of Akhnai, during the discussion between the sages and Rabbi Eliezer, supernatural miracles are invoked and the sages say “It is not in heaven,” meaning: we have overpowered the Master of the Universe, and the Torah follows the sages and not the Holy One, blessed be He.
C. And does the Holy One, blessed be He, need all these commands that the sukkah be of such-and-such dimensions?
D. What is the Oral Torah for the Rabbi, broadly speaking, and is it not an invention founded about two thousand years ago?
E. Regarding evolution, there are new studies showing that, for example, the appendix is not an evolutionary remnant, but has a significant role in pregnant women.

Thank you very much, Rabbi!
——————————————————————————————
Rabbi:

All of these seem to me like very weak arguments. This is really not something one should be troubled by. Is their messianism itself mentioned in the Torah? It seems to me you would do better to focus on more intelligent writings and methods of heresy. It is a shame to waste time on such nonsense.
A. Why should the Oral Torah be mentioned in the Written Torah? It accompanies it and was given with it. The Kuzari already pointed out that it is not reasonable that verses were given without explanations. The authority of the sages is also simple common sense. Is there any legal system without authorized institutions to interpret and decide it?!
B. That is indeed what is written there. So?
C. And does the Holy One, blessed be He, need what is written in the Torah at all?
D. Its foundations were transmitted at Sinai, and it developed throughout history.
E. And therefore?

Discussion on Answer

Michi (2017-02-21)

Sh
How can you write in the name of the Arizal such heretical things when your source is “I seem to recall hearing once”?! There is no basis for this at all in the Arizal’s words. And how do I know? Because I read the conceptions of the Arizal’s followers regarding divinity, and there they write that all the sefirot and attributes of God are only to make things somewhat understandable, while in truth above there are only subtle lights beyond the grasp of the human mind.
4 months ago

Michi
Hello.
What does the Sabbatical year have to do with an omelet? What is the connection between the sefirot being subtle lights and “to make things understandable,” and the question of what it means to say that the Holy One, blessed be He, Israel, and the Torah are one?
Your wording makes it plainly obvious that you understand absolutely nothing in this area. Anger (at a poker-faced person like me) is no substitute for understanding. So instead of reading “the conceptions of the Arizal’s followers regarding divinity,” go out and learn.
By the way, did you read the conceptions of the followers of that man regarding the Trinity, and see whether their intention too is subtle lights of the subtlest kind?
4 months ago

Sh
The connection is unclear? To claim that the people of Israel are literally God in the name of the Arizal is a distortion of the Arizal’s words. It seems to me that you made this claim only because of the pluralistic approach you display toward Christianity, that is—we have nothing to criticize in its theology, since supposedly we too believe in a similar faith.
Fair enough—if you find Christian theologians who claim that belief in the Trinity is not literal, and that that man is not God from their perspective, I will immediately retract my words. For now, the only Christian personality I have heard who rejected the divinity of that man is one of the community pastors of the evangelical Messianic Jewish sect. I’d be glad to hear of other Christian figures who hold that view.
4 months ago

Michi
1. You did not explain the connection.
2. Since you are dealing with things about which you understand nothing at all, it is hard to accept unsupported declarations.
3. As for belief in the Trinity, it is much more explicit than those “followers of the Arizal” that you read (?). You do not need my lectures—just browse Wikipedia a bit (= the site of the “followers of information,” those who want it accessible without investing much time).
4. By the way, have you heard of the belief in contraction not being literal in Hasidism and Kabbalah? Maybe you read about that among those mysterious “followers of the Arizal”?
4 months ago

Sh
1. In my opinion I explained. But if in your view I did not, I would first be glad for a source in the Arizal’s words that sees the above statement as literal. Because, with all due respect, “I seem to recall hearing once in the name of the Arizal” is not really a source.
2. Correct.
3. Thus said the followers of information: “Today the anti-Trinitarian streams constitute a minority in the Christian religion. Among the Christian groups advocating anti-Trinitarian views are especially the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, but also the Jesus Brethren, Christian Science, Unitarian Universalism, Iglesia ni Cristo, and others.”
You’re right, there are more streams than I knew. What is the difference between them and the main streams in Christianity, which are idolatry?
4. The mysterious followers of the Arizal: Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, for example, in Orot, Zeronim, ‘Sufferings Cleanse’: “Any definition of divinity leads to heresy; definition is spiritual idolatry. Even the definition of intellect and will, and even divinity itself and the name God, is a definition, and without the higher knowledge that all these are only scintillating flashes from that which is beyond definition, they too would lead to heresy. And in people who have become entirely detached from this original view, they indeed lead to gross heresy.”
Later I will bring you broader sources, God willing.
4 months ago

Michi
1. Whether you explained or not is not a matter of opinion. It is a factual question. There is no explanation of that in your words. Note well—not that I disagree, but that there is no explanation.
As I wrote, that is what I once heard, and therefore I was careful to present it as something heard secondhand. And contrary to what you say, the whole structure does not stand on that. It is really not important to the discussion, since there are different interpretations both there and with us.
3. First, there is still a difference between some leader of Messianic Jews and several Christian streams. Second, the Trinity has received masses of interpretations, and even if one accepts this identification literally, the question we are dealing with here is what that identification means, not whether there is an identification. After all, that man was human and God is abstract and all-powerful, etc. So what does such an identification mean? Clearly it is some abstract kind of identification, just like with us. These are different aspects of one entity, or one is expressed through the other, and so on. Exactly like אצלנו.
The major streams in Christianity are not idolatry according to quite a few halakhic decisors (and I, the small one, agree with them). Even regarding Catholicism I am not sure I agree that it is idolatry (for the reason I wrote here), but regarding Protestantism this is old news (there are articles in Tehumin and elsewhere. You can find them online). And if they all indeed believe in the Trinity, then why are they not all idol worshipers? Because the Trinity for them (for example among Protestants) is not literal. And as stated, also among Catholics it is probably so.
4. Well, the mystery has been solved: the followers of the Arizal = Rabbi Kook. Berg and Laitman are also followers of the Arizal, and so is Madonna (without comparing). You found certain interpretive statements in a certain commentator (who is known for the many contradictions in his words, and one can find everything in them. And by the way, this is not criticism of him, only a clarification of how difficult it is to draw conclusions from his words), and from here you drew sweeping conclusions that my words have no basis in the Arizal’s words. Now your criticism of the lack of basis for my words (which were explicitly presented as something I once heard) is most enlightening.
5. Don’t waste your time—no sources from any “followers of the Arizal” will help here. Every commentator takes his words in his own direction, and the differences between them are as vast as the ocean. Therefore, instead of bringing all the sources and scanning all the writings of the Arizal, I asked you a completely simple question that has known and famous answers. What about the conception of contraction not being literal? After all, this is an ancient dispute among the kabbalists down to our own day. Is that too a metaphor? Or did the “followers of the Arizal” write that it is not literal? Is contraction not being literal not the Trinity squared?
6. And finally, if you check among the “followers of that man,” you will see that there too one can find sources that interpret the Trinity in the same way (as subtle lights and so on). In fact, that is the accepted interpretation there. After all, the Father precedes the other two in the Trinity. And the three are distinct yet identified with one another, and not truly one. That is the standard and accepted dogma there, not some esoteric interpretation of mysterious followers. The fact that they all accept the Trinity is like the fact that with us everyone accepts that the Holy One, blessed be He, His Presence, and Israel are one. The question is what that identification means, not whether they accept it.
7. But as stated, all these pilpulistic debates are pointless, because interpretations can be given to anything. There is no right and wrong here, and it is also really not interesting (certainly I have no interest in defending the Christians and their faith in contradictions, just as I have no interest in defending their Jewish brothers who believe in contradictions). As I wrote, these comparisons contain nothing beyond sympathy or lack of sympathy. Nothing more. Whomever you love, you interpret accordingly; and whomever you do not love, you interpret literally. That is all, and that is what I wrote.
I think we have exhausted the matter.
4 months ago

Sh
Thank you for the responses.
4 months ago

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