Rabbi Michi,
you wrote that the Yamina party will not make many changes. In your opinion, what issues need to be advanced in the Knesset?

I don’t remember writing that. I wrote that no change is expected relative to the Jewish Home. As for the matter itself: mainly in the area of equality for different populations and separation of religion from state. And preferably also in security policy, especially regarding Gaza.

One has to remember that there are quite a few indirect transfer payments that are not included in the 800 shekels the kollel students receive, but still allow them to live fairly comfortable lives—whether it is subsidized medical treatment, a subsidized education system, discounts on municipal tax for low income, income supplements for kollel students, child allowances, and so on. Somehow people study tractate Ketubot and forget what the Talmud says: “The hyena gave birth and threw the burden of feeding its young onto the townspeople” (49b). People have children, but the public is required to subsidize them.

As stated, altogether there are 70,000 “non-beneficial” people, many of whom are learning. And among those who are not learning there are many fine people whose wives work in high-tech (you can see this from the size of the programming classes in the seminaries, which is only continuing to grow). Therefore the scope of the phenomenon is not all that large, certainly not enough to give it such weight and disqualify whoever is “bribing” the Haredim.

There are a million non-beneficial people there. Those who are not kollel students are also not beneficial, because they received no training and their contribution to the economy is pitiful. And likewise to the army, academia, and the media.
I think we’ve exhausted this.

Actually this is a long and complicated topic with a lot more to discuss. Personally, generalizations are not enough for me. Go and see how many people with degrees throw the certificate in the trash afterward, or are accepted into work that requires no training at all (for example, the insurance world). Is a shelf stocker at Osher Ad not beneficial to the economy? A teacher in a cheder, salespeople, bank clerks, etc. etc. (in the Hasidic public these jobs are found in abundance)—is it specifically a role that requires training that is beneficial? Are a million people not beneficial? The Haredi colleges are only growing, and soon even funds like Toronto won’t have enough money to finance the numbers knocking on their doors to receive training. It is sad to see how stereotypes penetrate so deeply everywhere and into every person as such. As stated, there are only a few tens of thousands of kollel students, a large part of whom are diligent and persistent. To say of a million people that they are not beneficial is insensitive and above all detached from reality.

Well, now I’m really starting to get angry. To me it is very sad that people have such weak and pathetic self-awareness that they are unable to see reality with clear eyes, and their thinking is captive to a narrow agenda. That is probably where such absurd comparisons and arguments come from (even if they are said in a mournful, self-righteous tone, tinged with passive-aggression, which is apparently supposed to send me to the corner to do some soul-searching like a Polish mother).

So here are a few basic facts and claims worth taking into account. Really just in a nutshell. In a modern society you need workers of all kinds. Shelf stockers and bank clerks too. Obviously. Who said otherwise?
But a society that trains only workers at that low level is an unproductive society that becomes a burden on the economy. What would you say if Israeli society in general focused on training sales clerks, shelf stockers, and insurance agents? If everyone is like that, who is supposed to carry the economy on his back? Who is supposed to be able to establish startups and companies that bring money into the economic cycle, and only thanks to which the economy can also sustain sales clerks and shelf stockers? Service providers and store salespeople move money from place to place, but someone also has to bring the money (or the products) into the economic cycle. Who will bring the ideas and the big-picture thinking? Who will acquire tools to deal with the problems in his society, and first of all to understand its ills? A cheder education does not really do that.
And allow me not to address here the magnificent Haredi colleges you mentioned, which illustrate very well some of these problems. And I also won’t address that society’s attitudes toward obligations like income tax, military service, and the like, because I can already foresee more disgraceful comparisons of the sort that appeared here earlier.
And in conclusion: yes, generalizations like “aren’t low-level workers contributing to the economy” (which suffer from such a simple fallacy of generalization: of course they are needed too, but a society that encourages everyone to become that is extremely problematic) are very harmful to drawing conclusions. It is sad that a person uses generalizations in order to draw conclusions. So nevertheless I suggest dropping the passive-aggression and starting to think without unjustified generalizations, and with justified ones.
And no, I absolutely did not say that general society has no problems and is free of mistakes and issues. I’m just anticipating the passive-aggressive scoldings that are presumably about to come upon us for the best.

Actually, I have never spared criticism on various issues regarding the Haredi public, and I completely agree that more core studies should be integrated into the schools and more Haredim into the army. Even so, here it feels more like a kind of distaste than substantive arguments… Because to say about all Haredim that they are not beneficial is a crude generalization that completely justifies the tone of the response. What about the girls who work in high-tech (you should check the numbers… speaking of facts), or who study for a degree in seminaries that teach degree programs (or do you also belittle those studies)? What about Haredim who did study in schools that teach core curriculum and studied in high school? And what about the service consciousness of thousands who volunteer in Hatzalah, Magen David Adom, Yad Sarah, Ezer Mizion, and many more?
And I also added that aside from that, the vast majority of Haredim contribute through one kind of work or another, and it is not correct to say of them that they “are not beneficial.” Allow me not to descend into the petty discussion of whether this is a scolding from a Polish mother or not, but it absolutely does not come from a narrow agenda; it is simply surprising to see how people who in certain areas speak wisely and analyze everything in depth fall, in other issues, into crude and brutal generalizations. A person who is meticulous with people over the finest nuance says “a million non-beneficial.”
Neither passive nor aggressive—I simply expect substance. And yes, as a Haredi, obviously this will be written in a somewhat hurt tone, despite the rather cold style customary on the site.

There’s no way around it, Yossi. When 3/4 of the Haredim who enroll in academic studies drop out during their studies, I understand that there is some problem here. Beyond that, when an anti-Haredi government will probably arise here that on the one hand cuts transfer payments and on the other strengthens the hands of Sabbath desecrators, the Haredim will find themselves in the worst possible situation. On the one hand, they will be required to work because the transfer payments from the government will stop; on the other hand, their relative weakness in the labor market, which pushes them into the lowest-level service jobs, will place them in a very weak bargaining position vis-à-vis labor-market pressures. Are you sure poverty will not cause them to violate their convictions (see Orach Chayim, siman 156)?
How much the sages emphasized the importance of learning a trade—to the point that they permitted it on the Sabbath and did not forbid it משום weekday-type activity (see Orach Chayim 306:6; and from here there is permission for a student to study for an exam on the Sabbath)—but the Haredim ignore these Jewish laws. After all, it is clear that in our generation the core subjects are learning a trade, especially since we all live in a wealthy society that allows Torah study alongside general studies without greatly harming religious studies (see Haredi yeshiva high schools like Ma’arava and Yishuv Hehadash). But for most Haredim—heaven forbid that the boys should study English, mathematics, physics, and Hebrew. They might become independent and enlist in the army… And so most Haredim remain weak and miserable, exposed to every passing wind.

I can only refer you again to my previous message. If in your view it is preferable to be offended and repeat the same arguments again, after I already explained why they are not relevant—that is of course your right. But as far as I’m concerned, I see no point in continuing. Everything has been explained. All the best.

Just to sharpen my point.
If you had written, “The Haredim have room to aspire and advance; the education toward passivity is harmful to them”—I would support your words one hundred percent.
You portrayed it in a distorted and sweeping way, and that alone is what I protested and objected to, and therefore the arguments are highly relevant and stand as they are. Beyond rational arguments, there is also the matter of wording and the way things are presented.
If you choose to ignore that—that is of course your right.
All the best.

With God’s help, on the eve of the holy Sabbath, and may all these blessings come upon you, 5779

The economic contribution of an enterprise is first and foremost in the case of an exporting enterprise that brings foreign money into the economic system and thereby increases the state’s economic resources.

Accordingly, the kollel student contributes far more to the state economy than his fellow clerk, teacher, lawyer, or insurance agent, since the money they earn is already in the state’s economic system, whereas the kollel student requires the kollel administrators to bring donations, thereby adding money to the system.

All this is of course only from the purely economic aspect, without taking into account the economic and security blessing bestowed upon the Jewish people by virtue of Torah study and its observance.

With blessings, Sh.Tz.

Even though from the perspective of the state economy a kollel student’s contribution is much greater, a stage comes when he must “build his own household” and support his family through work that brings him more money personally, and then there is a situation in which “your life takes precedence” and he needs to go out to work.

And in any case, even a Haredi family man contributes more to the state economy than a secular person, because he and his family consume much more domestic produce for reasons of kashrut, and spend less time abroad, so the Haredi consumer contributes more to strengthening the country’s production enterprises.

Obviously. Therefore the apocalyptic forecasts about the growing percentage of Haredim in the population contain within them the potential for wondrous economic blessing (the schnorring sector that sustains the entire economy will flourish like a rose). Yuck, just anti-Semites…

The schnorring industry is flourishing even today thanks to the academic world, which draws huge sums of donations and funds from abroad, and these too add cash to the national economy. The problem there is only that a significant portion of the money from abroad funds propaganda for a boycott of Israel, which harms the economy 🙂

Regards, a schnorrer consumer

I have been informed that the Ponevezh startup company is currently working on cutting-edge nano-schnorr technology, and hopes thereby to miniaturize the banknotes so they won’t be detected by customs and the income tax authorities. All for the prosperity and flourishing of the economy, of course.
The shelf stockers at Osher Ad and Birkat Rachel of the next generation have now entered junior yeshiva and need to choose a track. The dilemma is between nuclear shelf-stocking based on heavy mineral water (= an isotope of enriched Super Drink) and nano-schnorr.

The schnorring sector indeed enabled the Land of Israel to close its balance of payments vis-à-vis abroad over the past several hundred years—actually, until the year 2000, when Israel moved to a surplus in the balance of payments. In that sense there was not much difference between the Old Yishuv and the New Yishuv, or in modern phrasing, between the Zionists and the Haredim. The real difference was that the Zionists used schnorring in order to establish here a scientific and technological society that for the first time made it possible for the Jewish settlement to exist in the Land of Israel without relying on the schnorring sector.
The kollels, like civil-society bodies on the right and left, do indeed continue the schnorring sector, and therefore technically they can certainly be seen as an export branch of the State of Israel (perhaps that is why the State of Israel does not impose restrictions on the funding of civil-society organizations by foreign states). Even so, the economic capacity of support through the schnorring sector is limited. If we compare this to an ecological reality, every creature that exists at the expense of other creatures is limited relative to those on which it feeds. Thus, for example, the ratio of herbivores to plants is about 1 to 10, and the ratio of predators to herbivores is also 1 to 10 (according to the numbers brought by Yuval Noah Harari, the number of people in the State of Israel is about 8 million and the chickens 200 million—a ratio of 1 to 25). If the Haredim have passed that ratio, they will find themselves facing the limitation of scarcity, and their numbers will have to decline.

Among the eight million Israelis who eat chickens, of course, Rabbi Michi and Yuval Noah Harari are not included, since both of them are vegetarians.

Today, in the academic world, they require a master’s degree for shelf stockers in libraries :

Regards, the non-academic shelf stocker, Yad HaRav Nissim Library

And seriously—a simple laborer in agriculture and industry contributes to the state economy no less than a polished academic.

Sh.Tz.,
That depends on his human capital. A simple laborer with engineering training, who knows how to read English and understand engineering systems, certainly contributes no less than a polished academic, and even more (and is also compensated more, as all those PhDs stuck without an academic position can attest). A simple laborer who understands nothing about life and only does what he is told contributes much less.
With the blessing of “work sets you free” (the socialists’ slogan),
a simple laborer in industry

With God’s help, 20 Elul 5779

To Y.D. — greetings,

What contributes to a worker’s success is his ability to deal with unexpected malfunctions at work, to take initiative, and to improvise creative solutions—something not learned דווקא in the academic world, where one grows accustomed over many years to subordination to the “governing discipline.” Creative, improvisational thinking is learned mainly in “the school of life.”

Regards, the shelf stocker

It should be added that today, beyond professions that require degree study, the degree is gradually becoming less relevant to practical career work (the shrinking classes in the communications field can testify to that, for example). Reason also points this way, because in many cases, in order to receive a degree one needs a score of 60–65. So in practice, more than a third of the material is apparently not all that important for the student to know… Out of that 60, a large part is answered by guesswork and intuition, another large part is not relevant to the practical job, and another part is forgotten over time. In the end, the internship and practical experience are what actually train the worker, far more than three years of crammed study of much material that is not relevant at all (for example, a kidney doctor who in his bachelor’s degree studied all kinds of medicine even though he had no need for it). The degree is important as a degree. Will a person who studied a short programming course and received a “pitiful” certificate advance less in his career than a degree-holder? Does he understand the field less? Thousands of witnesses and programmers would testify that the answer is completely no.