Q&A: The Parameters of Modesty Nowadays
The Parameters of Modesty Nowadays
Question
Hello Rabbi,
I saw in Peninei Halakha that there is no dissenting opinion that a woman needs to cover at least her elbows and knees. At the same time, I’ve noticed that many do not follow this. Does this stem from unfamiliarity with this law? Or from carelessness? Or perhaps there are more lenient opinions that they rely on?
Best regards,
Answer
It’s hard to answer this question. Factually, I assume that many do this because they either do not know or do not care about Jewish law. But in the laws of modesty it is hard to separate the binding norm from the norm actually practiced. When a certain style of dress becomes established as the norm, it gains legitimacy, even if you can find in the Talmud and in the halakhic decisors that it is forbidden.
Rabbi Melamed also addresses this here, and he also brings the other opinions:
https://ph.yhb.org.il/category/%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A4%D7%97%D7%94/11-07/
Discussion on Answer
I could have answered simply: no. The fact that there is flexibility does not mean there is no framework. But truthfully I’m not sure the answer is negative. To discuss this, one has to know and understand that reality. Only someone who has experienced it and understands it can determine whether it is permitted or forbidden (a great example of this is your certainty regarding the motives of nudism, which in my assessment stems from unfamiliarity and prejudice). See my article on halakhic ruling during the Holocaust.
Just as an example: at the beach everyone wears swimsuits and even recites blessings dressed that way. A woman separates challah from her dough while naked, etc.
A. Why is the Rabbi drawing an analogy between the laws of modesty and the laws of blessings? Here, even a handbreadth, and even a woman’s voice, is considered nakedness. But in the laws of blessings, only actual nakedness is nakedness. What does that example have to do with this?
B. I assume that is what nudism is about because of interviews with nudists (who were clothed during the interview…) that I heard. C. It could be that I’m wrong. I’m of course asking theoretically. But certainly that is their dress code. The Rabbi said the parameter is the norm. Well, there you have a norm, unlike others.
D. What is the reasoning and source for saying there is a minimum framework?
E. After the Rabbi said that one has to examine the reality and experience it, if so then even if this is the norm, it is still a norm that causes some minorities to stumble, since they experience the norm differently.
F. The Rabbi said that even though the halakhic decisors and the Talmud forbade it, there is nonetheless legitimacy. I understood “legitimacy” to mean permission. There are two ways to understand the prohibition that appears in the Talmud: a determination for all generations, or a determination for the generation in which it was stated, until the norm changes. The Sages did not add this loophole in the laws of modesty. What basis is there for the second possibility? From the omission of the issue of social norm, there is support for the first possibility. And even if the two possibilities are evenly balanced, how can we be lenient?
Good night and blessings
A. What is your source for the distinction between the laws of blessings and the laws of modesty? It is clear that there too the issue is modesty. The reasoning is the same.
B-C. Perhaps. I’m not an expert in nudism, but I doubt you are right. Nudism is not necessarily sexual licentiousness but a kind of freedom. That is something else. And indeed, there you have a different norm.
D. Who said there is? I raised it as a possibility. In any case, even if there is, the source is reasoning.
E. Let those other minorities solve their own problem. In Peninei Halakha there he already noted that the laws of women’s modesty do not stem from “do not place a stumbling block” for men. My friend Nadav Shnerb also elaborated on this in his article here: https://woland.ph.biu.ac.il/?page_id=146
F. I didn’t understand the question. I don’t need a source for this. Their words were said in the reality of their time, and when reality changes the law changes. This is simple interpretive reasoning. Is there a source for the fact that the law of “do not form separate factions” changes when the world becomes a global village? Then on what basis do Jews in Israel have the authority to establish a hundred synagogues and religious courts in one city?
A. In the laws of blessings there is also a law requiring a belt around one’s waist, which certainly was not said in the laws of modesty. Apparently in the laws of blessings one must show respect, and therefore only actual nakedness must be covered, unlike the laws of modesty.
B-C. Apparently I didn’t write clearly. That is exactly what I meant.
D. What is the reasoning?
E. I couldn’t find the article. But my point stands even if the laws of modesty do not derive from “do not place a stumbling block” but are an independent law. The Torah forbade the man from straying after his eyes, and it forbade the woman from displaying her body when it falls under the category of “nakedness” (for after all, a handbreadth of a woman is nakedness). But where there is no arousal on the man’s part, it does not make sense to call it nakedness. It was my failure in phrasing that I said the woman causes others to stumble.
F. So then let’s read the weekly Torah portion from a computer instead of from a parchment scroll. Their words were said in their time, and “until one cannot distinguish between ‘Cursed be Rouhani’ and ‘Blessed be Bibi.’” Limitations were stated for many laws, but where was the time limitation omitted here? Was it so obvious that there was no need to write it? Such an important and essential principle, one that undercuts the whole Torah, and it isn’t written? And regarding “do not form separate factions,” as is known, setting one difficulty against another proves nothing. But apparently “do not abandon your mother’s teaching” is more stringent than this exposition. Still, presumably the reason for the prohibition of “do not form separate factions” remains.
Can one not distinguish in this discussion between Torah-level nakedness and rabbinic nakedness?
One can distinguish between anything and anything else and come up with all sorts of distinctions. But reasoning remains where it is.
The rule for a nudist beach is like the rule for a nursing woman, where according to the Ben Ish Hai (and Yalkut Yosef agreed with him in the name of Rabbi Ovadia), one may recite the Shema in front of her even if she is not his wife, because the accepted norm (in their time) was that a nursing woman would expose a breast in front of everyone, and this was not considered one of the covered places.
And the fact that the laws of modesty are not relevant here does not mean that the law of “do not stray after your hearts and your eyes,” etc., is not relevant.
Do those same opinions also permit nudity in nudist places? After all, that is the norm for them (as opposed to other places where people don’t do this for the sake of freedom and release from all restraints and limitations, but rather for overt sexuality, and that is not the fashion norm there).