Q&A: Clear Faith
Clear Faith
Question
Hello, I would like to know your positions on the following questions:
1) Do you believe that the entire Torah (from "In the beginning God created" to "before the eyes of all Israel") is from Heaven? And if not, then what is?
2) What is your belief regarding the books of the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) (all prophetic, some prophetic {which ones? and which not?}, all non-prophetic)?
Answer
- I assume that a significant part came from Sinai, although it is certainly plausible that there were later additions and later edits. I do not know what they are, and therefore I operate on the basis of a presumption. As long as it has not been proven otherwise, the verse was given at Sinai. And even what was not given at Sinai could have been said/edited with divine inspiration by a prophet.
- Same here.
Discussion on Answer
I wrote that there is a presumption that it is, until it is proven otherwise regarding some particular verse. What the Hebrew Bible reflects is a different question. In my opinion, not much, at least not for us today. I wrote here in the past (and I will expand on this in my trilogy) that it is hard to learn anything from the verses of the Hebrew Bible. Everyone interprets them according to his own insights. I don't know anyone who learned something from the Hebrew Bible and gave up one of his prior views because of it.
I tend to think that the book was not composed by Moses, since the book speaks in the past tense and in the third person, and besides, it says in the Torah that Moses wrote the Torah to place it in the Ark…
Well, I guess I just lost my share in the World to Come at this very moment…
Does the Rabbi have any way to save me from going down to the pit and convince me that it really was written by Moses?
What's the problem with saying that God dictated the Torah to him (as is accepted by most of the sages of Israel), and therefore it is phrased in the third person?
Shai, ask here; in my humble opinion he has a lot of knowledge.
https://rationalbelief.org.il/
There are also rabbis who are very expert in the Hebrew Bible; I would suggest asking them.
I'm not sure that the fact that the book speaks in the past tense, third person, wasn't simply the accepted form in those days… besides, you don't really have a hypothesis for how God would write the Torah (according to religious belief), so the question falls away from the outset.
To Shai –
The claim that the fact that the book speaks about Moses in the third person is an indication that the author was someone else is an old claim. This is the holy language of Rabbi Baruch Spinoza at the beginning of chapter 8 of the Theological-Political Treatise (available for download online):
"Not only does the author of these books speak of Moses in the third person, but moreover he testifies many things about Moses, such as: 'The Lord spoke to Moses,' 'The Lord spoke to Moses face to face,' 'Now the man Moses was very humble, more than any man,' 'And Moses was angry with the officers of the army,' 'And there has not arisen again in Israel a prophet like Moses.'
The proof from the fact that Scripture relates that Moses wrote the Torah and placed it in the Ark, and from this that the book before us is not the original Torah scroll, he attributes to Ibn Ezra himself, who hints at this at the beginning of Deuteronomy (on the words 'beyond the Jordan'). In other words, Spinoza leans on a great authority in his claim that Scripture itself proves that the text that our teacher Moses gave to the children of Israel was shorter and different from the wording of the Torah before us.
There have been many exchanges on this subject on the site; see for example here (further down in the thread):
https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%9E%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%90%D7%AA-%D7%A1%D7%A4%D7%A8-%D7%94%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%94-%D7%91%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%99-%D7%99%D7%90%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%94%D7%95/
Of course I did not come to put my head between the mountains; I am only showing you a source reference. Give to the wise and he will grow wiser, and may he merit the 310 worlds hidden away for the righteous in the Garden of Eden.
I didn't ask you what the verses mean, but whether the verses reflect the Creator's messages to His creatures, whatever those messages may be.
Premise A: God wants to convey messages to His creatures.
Premise B: God conveys His messages through prophets.
Premise C: The Hebrew Bible is the words of the prophets.
Premise D: You believe in the Hebrew Bible.
Conclusion: You should believe that the Hebrew Bible reflects the Creator's messages to His creatures, whatever those may be.
Dear Anonymous. From what I answered, you can learn that all four premises are acceptable to me. You're asking whether the conclusion is as well? Why not ask me whether in my opinion 2+2=4? If you mean to ask me what I think of tautologies, my view is very positive. They are always true.
I wanted to get from you a written admission that you believe the Hebrew Bible is our most basic source for knowing the will of the Creator (I still haven't gotten that).
I didn't ask you about the equation and the tautology because, from my impression of your positions, I haven't found gaps in those areas. But if you really do believe the above conclusion (which I still haven't gotten confirmation of), then I will understand that this belief is the basic common denominator between us, and from that point I can try to persuade you that it may be necessary to recalculate the route on some of your positions.
Do you also want a lawyer's signature?
I do indeed agree that the Hebrew Bible was given by the Holy One, blessed be He. Can His will be known through it? I wrote that I am very doubtful. Unfortunately I don't have a lawyer here to sign off on it.
I didn't ask whether the Creator's will can be known through the Hebrew Bible alone, but whether you believe that the Creator wanted to teach His creatures something, whatever it may be, by means of the Hebrew Bible (I still haven't gotten that).
It seems to me that for some reason you are afraid to admit it. You admit that you believe the Hebrew Bible was given by the Creator, and I assume you don't hold that it was given for no reason; rather, logic says there is a reason for giving the Hebrew Bible, and the reason is to convey messages to His creatures, whatever those may be.
Recognizing the Hebrew Bible as the Creator's book of messages, whatever they may be, is the introduction to the next stage that I am aiming at (deciphering the messages depends first of all on this basic recognition).
I didn't mean that deciphering the messages is the next stage, but rather that in order to get to deciphering the messages, you first need the recognition that the Hebrew Bible is the Creator's book of messages, and then it will be possible, with logical arguments, to continue to further stages, until with God's help we reach the more plausible decoding of the messages.
This is already starting to become harassment. I wrote הדברים in black and white, and if there is a reading-comprehension problem then it should be dealt with, but not here. I won't return to this again. If you have something to add, go ahead and write it.
All in all, I just want to try to strive toward the truth, as much as is logically possible.
Your positions on certain issues contradict the tradition of the sages as it has been accepted throughout the generations until today, and they lead you and others to abandon it in favor of a new path.
You have influence on various people, and some of them tend to adopt your positions simply because they trust you.
I assume you'll answer that you don't force others to think like you, etc., but in practice they are influenced by you.
Question: Why does this bother me?
Answer: The consequences of that abandonment (according to the tradition you rejected) are fateful and may harm people who adopted your positions, and therefore it is fitting to examine whether your positions are in fact more plausible than the traditional positions.
Don't think I want to be a thought police officer and try to silence you; on the contrary, I want to open up the disputed issues and clarify with you where reason leans more strongly, toward the accepted tradition or toward your new positions.
We already talked about reading comprehension, didn't we? Your motivations don't really matter to me, nor are they the topic of discussion. As far as I'm concerned, they can be dark or wonderful. To repair or to ruin. It doesn't matter. I deal with arguments, not motivations or the person making them. I repeat that all your questions have been answered, and if you want to continue and comment with something new, you're welcome to.
The previous response was important in my eyes, because I wanted to appease you regarding the feeling of harassment and explain my intentions to you.
For now, I will make do with the questions and answers up to this point, and without making a vow I will continue (most likely after the holiday ends) from the shared assumption that the Hebrew Bible is the basic source for understanding the Creator's messages.
Have a kosher and joyful holiday, to you and to all Israel.
Would it be correct to say that from your perspective, the entire Hebrew Bible is a prophetic text that reflects the Creator's messages to His creatures?