Mr. Hushinsky, please formulate it for all our benefit 🙂 Apparently this relies on data from serious institutions. In my humble opinion it’s worth discussing.

Many good people, including the Rabbi, claim that the Haredim are an economic burden on the state, and in plain language, robbers of the public purse.
Rabbi Zamir Cohen, in the attached video, presents data showing that the opposite is true.

About 95% of income tax is paid by the top three deciles! And the remaining 5% is paid by the lower seven deciles = most of the country’s citizens, Haredim and all the rest of its citizens.

And even within that 5%:
1. In indirect tax everyone is equal (VAT and the like); indirect tax is close to half of state revenues.
2. Direct tax (income tax): in the general public (pre-Covid), the employment rate was 78.2%; among the Haredim the employment rate was 61.2% (according to Central Bureau of Statistics data).
So overall a gap of only about 17%. (And they too pay indirect tax, as stated.)
2a. Those seventeen percent who do not pay direct tax:
According to the Israel Democracy Institute, the Haredim are twelve percent, and of them seventeen percent, as stated, do not work.
3. According to the Central Bureau of Statistics, seventy percent of the Haredim bought apartments; fifty percent of the apartment’s value goes to the state treasury.

So the whole story is about 17% less than the other citizens, out of the 5% of the lower seven deciles — negligible relative to the state’s income tax revenues.

The Haredi contribution to the state treasury through charity organizations:
From an article on the NRG website: Haredi organizations save the state treasury billions of shekels, run by volunteers who serve for ten years and more (not just three years).

Yad Sarah: (founded by Rabbi Uri Lupolianski). Prevents unnecessary hospitalizations; the organization saves more than one billion four hundred million NIS per year!!! (This sum exceeds the annual yeshiva budget.)

Ezra LaMarpeh: (founded by Rabbi Firer) helps more than one hundred thousand Israelis with medical counseling, runs a rehabilitation center for people with disabilities, home medical treatment, a home-care system for cancer patients, and more; it saves the state treasury more than one hundred million a year.

Food organizations distributing tens of tons of food every week to welfare families:
Meir Panim, Karmei Ha’Ir, Chasdei Naomi, Yad Ezra.
The ZAKA organization, which saves a great deal as well…

Another article from Walla:
An organization like Yad Eliezer supports more than one hundred and thirty thousand people; the organization’s budget exceeds the budgets of the Ministry of Communications and the President’s Office combined!!

United Hatzalah: about a quarter of a million people are helped through them every year, over 2,500 volunteers, and the organization’s budget turnover is equal to the budget of the Ministry of Finance!!!

The activists are almost all Haredi, and no one counts them as “contributors to the state.”

(At the end of the article there it was stated: “The fact that the many volunteers in these organizations do not operate in uniform with some rank or another on their shoulders does not detract from their contribution in the slightest.”)

More from the Israel Democracy Institute:
In the general public there has been a decline in donations, and they fell to 63% of monetary donors among those aged twenty and over.
In the Haredi public, the numbers reach 90% among those aged twenty-plus!!

Heads of yeshivot and kollels bring in foreign currency through donations amounting to hundreds of millions of dollars a year.

The state’s expenses on Jewish culture in yeshivot are less than four percent of what it spends on students of ancient Roman and Greek culture.

What the Haredim receive:
According to the Knesset Research and Information Center:

The annual theater budget stands at about 94.9 million NIS
Cinema: 79.5 million
Music and Hebrew song: 64.9 million.
Activities for Arab culture: 10.5 million.
Festivals, culture, and art: 9.8 million.
Plastic arts: 4.9 million.

The budget for all Torah education institutions in the country stands at about 8.3 million!!! (By the way, Torah culture funding also goes to vital nonprofits under the heading of Torah culture.)

Habima: 17,111,000 NIS
The Cameri: 12,228,000 NIS
Etc. (a table is attached)

The state’s expenses on prisoners in prisons, most of whom are not from the Haredi sector, are about three and a half billion NIS!

Isn’t the minor percentage that was presented a national interest worth investing in, at least like the student studying ancient Roman culture at the university? And Greek culture…?

My question is: Is Rabbi Zamir distorting the data presented and hiding information? Or is the truth on his side, and the reason the Haredim are perceived as freeloaders is a lie? Why give weight to those extreme margins within the Haredi public as though they represent society as a whole?

Thanks in advance. (And also to Mr. AO for the push…)

To Giyora Hushinsky

I don’t understand. You yourself wrote that most income tax comes from the top three deciles. I’m guessing the percentage of Haredim in those is negligible. So it comes out that they contribute less than one percent to taxes (let’s say they’re 20 percent of the population. They’re less. 16 seats in the Knesset out of 120).

So what is this whole discussion about? They’re not robbers of the public purse. It’s just that the rest of the Israeli public are suckers who give them citizenship and pay to rent their fingers in the Knesset (and the Arabs too).

Immanuel, first of all, the percentage of rich people from the top decile in Haredi society is larger relative to general society — Lev Leviev, Gertler, and the like.

Another point: you didn’t address all the arguments, both the contribution of Haredi organizations and the grants distributed to other matters that do not outweigh the goal of preserving the 17% of learners in Haredi society relative to the rest of the population.

You addressed only the direct tax, and there is no difference between you and a Haredi person who benefits from the top deciles. If you are not a freeloader and a robber of the public purse, then he too is not a robber of the public purse.

One or two billionaires are insignificant for tax revenues. What matters is high-tech and the productive professions, where the percentage of Haredim is negligible. Commerce contributes nothing to the economy. A crafty exilic Jewish mentality. Only productivity. And the Haredim are not productive even in the Torah sphere (the quantity and quality of Torah understanding produced at a given time relative to the number of learners).

The contribution of the Haredim to nonprofits is like someone who refuses to pay building maintenance dues and on his own decides to volunteer for something in the building. It’s sleight of hand. It’s simply the ego of the Haredim who want to decide on their own what matters to the public and what doesn’t, and are unwilling to accept the public’s decision, even though that’s the common-sense way people behave. It’s a lack of decency and a lack of sense. Don’t dodge obligations and then do favors. But as I said, it’s the decision of the secular public to allow them to live among it. I think that public is a sucker (and stupid), that’s all (and the Haredi attitude toward it is its punishment). There are Torah scholars also in the Religious Zionist public, and those can be supported. Torah study by people who disdain the Israeli public has no value for the Israeli public. For my part, I don’t speak with Haredim at all. Toward anyone who isn’t one of them, they lie and deceive him (and most of them aren’t even conscious of it. They absorb it with their mother’s milk. Part of the Haredi religion — more accurately, the exilic Jewish mentality — is deceiving the lord. And for that you need some current lord. The rest of the Israeli public doesn’t understand that it fills that function of the current lord.)

You’re probably deceiving me somewhere too, only most likely you’re not aware of it (Haredi propaganda).

It could be said that the Haredim are of the sons of Jacob — the Jews — whose strength is only in his mouth, to pray and also to deceive. That is, without action and deed and without productivity. Whereas the Zionists — at least in aspiration and desire (they understand what is good and what is bad) — wanted to be of the sons of Israel (and Yeshurun), whose strength — with Heaven’s help — is also in his hands. And who is active and a fighter. (As opposed to the other nations whose strength is only in their hands and they are barbarians — from the school of Esau.) And he is not a deceiver, at most cunning and wise, but not deceitful, rather upright. That is why the name Israel is interpreted not only as “struggled with God” but also “upright of God” — that is, very upright, as in other biblical expressions where adding the divine name indicates greatness.

Actually, this whole calculation of the economic profitability of supporting the Haredi public is itself unproductive Jewish trading (that’s really where you, Giyora, are deceiving me unconsciously). The Zionist public should, in principle, not encourage lack of productivity and should separate from those who do encourage it. And it should believe that in the long run this approach itself will also prove economically worthwhile (like Jewish settlement itself and the establishment of the Jewish Israeli state). But what can we do — a third of the secular public, the Left, is no longer Zionist (doesn’t believe in any nationhood, and especially not the Jewish nation). The Haredim owe the Left their very existence as a thriving society. Both of them encourage idleness and oppose Jewish national existence. The Left too has a religion that opposes Zionism (the religion of democracy and socialism). And together with the Haredi religion it drags the whole public down into the abyss.

(By the way, Torah productivity is productivity in every sense. But among the Haredim idleness — lack of action, passivity, reactivity — is a religious principle, and therefore even in the Torah sphere I have found the Haredi public very poor. Most Torah novelties by Haredim — and one can say also in the Religious Zionist public that is drawn after them in this way — that I have read are low-level, just little homiletic lines, not real understanding. Certainly relative to the enormous quantity of learners — who aren’t really learning, because learning means activating the mind, which is of course forbidden according to the Haredi religion.)

Immanuel, it seems you’re looking for a fight and not to conduct a discussion or address the data. Go quarrel with people better suited than me; I’m not Haredi, and this video came my way, and it left me stunned. If it didn’t convince you, that’s your right. I’d only recommend dropping the sweeping generalizations you’re making about an entire public. The data Rabbi Zamir presented are about a gap of about 17%, as stated, between the entire Israeli public that works and the Haredim who engage only in Torah study. I don’t know you, but it seems you had a hard experience with this public, or perhaps you came out of it and therefore your great anger. Go over all of Rabbi Zamir’s words again and you’ll see that the Haredim as a society contribute far beyond the poor man’s sheep they are given.

By the way, they deserve praise for having values besides money, and for them education is a supreme value — not only early childhood so the parents can earn a living. Yesterday I saw on Guy Zohar’s program how he praised Haredi society for having values and that one should learn from it. Guy is not a Haredi fan, but he knows how to make the distinction and give credit where it’s due!
If in your eyes Roman culture is more important than funding for Jewish culture, apparently there’s no way I can help you.

Indeed I do not like the Haredi public. There is no picking a fight here. There is something bad in it that I loathe. I did not go through any hard experience with it and I didn’t come out of it. I grew up in Religious Zionism in a relatively secular city. I was exposed to their bad side simply by encountering them on Haredi news sites (Kikar HaShabbat, B’Hadrei Haredim, Be’Olamam Shel Haredim, etc.). In my city there are mainly Chabadniks, who are a little different, but I know that in their hearts they are regular Haredim, and Shasniks, who are much less bad than the Ashkenazi Lithuanians and especially the Hasidim. This public is a bluff. It has no values at all (like the rest of humanity; money is not a value). It has no idea why it lives and for what it lives (like all the rest of humanity). It simply lives in fantasies. It’s just a conservative public (like the Mormons in the U.S.). The Torah serves its ego (just as all other ideologies in the world serve the egos of their founders). Only when it is in the name of Torah, it’s infuriating and disgusting. And its lack of awareness of this only makes the matter worse. I react the way anyone reacts when exposed to a bluff. That’s all.

I have no need for this video because I don’t believe anyway (just as Rabbi Michi doesn’t believe) this Rabbi Zamir. He is simply a liar, or unaware that he is one (he sees what is convenient for him to see, or manufactures reality according to his needs). He is a Haredi propagandist and naturally omits important data or distorts the picture. He needs to sell the Haredi public. Go believe an aggressive salesman. If you want to buy, health to you. I don’t buy from peddlers like him who could sell ice to Eskimos. If the Haredim contribute so much, then in any case they can separate from us and don’t need us and our taxes. In my opinion we should separate from them without any such economic calculation. And if it’s not good for them, let them leave the country.

Also, maybe you’re not Haredi but maybe you’re Hardali. In any case, in every argument each side wants to be convinced according to some interest (you, for example, want to be the one who discovered the light and the great bluff that the Haredim are not robbers, etc. In short, you want to believe this because it advances you, at least in your own eyes). Matter of self-awareness. In any case, I indeed generalize about an entire public. And these are very strong generalizations, just as the Holy One generalized about Sodom. Let the righteous among them leave it and be saved. The only thing “in its favor” that I think is that it is not aware of this evil within it (it is infantile and childish, like children, but also wild and manipulative like them). Aside from that, it is a public that is one huge lie, and I want no dealings with it. Let us hope the rest of the Zionist public realizes this quickly before it collapses economically through lockdowns. By the way, my words apply even more so to the Arabs, but that is of course trivial.

Immanuel, you testified that your familiarity with Haredi society is through websites. Sorry to disappoint you, but that’s not how one gets to know people and cultures. It seems a bit condescending to know people on the basis of hired publicists and media coverage, which mostly presents whatever will win screen time. Everyday life isn’t covered because it isn’t interesting!

I’m not Hardali. You draw conclusions about human beings on the basis of critical thinking they raise. That is the very sin you commit toward the Haredi sector as well. I’ve had quite a bit of opportunity to move around inside that society. There are fringes, as everywhere, but the general line is high-quality and values-based, not just folklore. The only thing that bothered me was that I felt their existence was at my expense and that they needed me, the small citizen. In the video Rabbi Zamir presented the data clearly and respectfully, without attacking anyone, and on that basis I asked whether he is in fact hiding data. You claimed, in your words, that he is a Haredi propagandist and naturally omits important data or distorts the picture. But it would have been fitting for you to provide support for your claims. Throwing around empty words and slogans is the trade of propagandists. If you are not one and you oppose such people, you are invited to present your wares here and we will discuss them. I too brought my skepticism, and on the contrary I would be happy to see data that Rabbi Zamir concealed.

No and no.

The conclusion I reached was not only through articles. Also through talkbacks, through articles, through cross-checking information, and also from Haredim I know — from the way they speak, from their language, from the subtext, from the nuances, from many things. Most of what they say (when directed outward but especially among themselves) is not in words but in body language and subtext (they’re not even aware of it. They’re like babies or animals). And my conclusions also explain many phenomena among them that I had not previously felt were incomprehensible. It is not a quality public. And not a values-based one either, nonsense. “All the kindness they do, they do for themselves.” Don’t confuse me with citations and other formal empty words. This is my impression from thousands upon thousands of details, built up over years, and there’s no way I can convince you of it on this website. You don’t have to believe me, and that is your right (and also your duty in the halakhic sense), but my words are not empty slogans. Maybe to you. Trust is not something one can persuade about on a website. It is something built from direct experiences and personal encounter — it’s not academic research. And Rabbi Michi too reached similar conclusions (though in my opinion he is too naive). Like with malicious speech — which is what I’m writing here — one may not believe it until one sees with one’s own eyes, but one may be suspicious. So be suspicious of my words. And if you have a question on a specific point, if I have strength, God willing I will answer you. Rabbi Zamir’s respectability is part of their way of deception. They are like Arabs — they’ll say anything. They have no concept of truth at all regarding anything outside their own society. You experience things differently, fine, so start investigating anew. Or don’t.

I am indeed condescending, but also right. The whole Haredi public are hired publicists. They are not even aware of it. The simple ones among them are even worse than the journalists, and the collection of “critical” Lithuanians among them will, at the decisive moment, turn their backs on you, as we see these days. I don’t know whether their existence is at your expense, but I am absolutely certain they have no self-respect and they will try every trick in the book to get money out of anyone possible, like classic exilic Jews.

I said maybe you are Hardali because of your attempt to defend them. If you are critical, fine. But true criticism is quiet and does not try to ignite an argument between two sides (you tried to drag Rabbi Michi — who also has no trust in them — into a discussion about this). So you’re not Hardali, but as I said, you’re fueled by a motivation to play the exceptional one who has been redeemed from anti-Haredi brainwashing. That’s not criticism. That’s excited childishness.

I confess to the crime. Truth is, without me there probably wouldn’t have been any argument on the matter. I watched the video, which seemed well-founded, and I was very curious to see how even now Michi would dismantle their arguments in his usual way, but even when I asked about it my question was deleted. Apparently he’s really tired of talking about this. I think we’ve exhausted it. ?

Immanuel, the range of what you wrote is indeed worthy of discussion, although again you are making coarse generalizations and seeing reality subjectively. As you testified, you can’t stand them, so you do not have the ability to examine whether when they do something it is positive or negative. Anything can be presented as negative, even when a person acts with dignity and statesmanship, as you presented Rabbi Zamir. These things could be said about any person and any society. Any humble person could be interpreted as a pathological egotist who boasts through presenting himself as humble. That isn’t serious; it only shows the childishness of which you accused me, even though apparently I could be your grandson.

I don’t know if you noticed, but in the end even you agreed that they are not robbers of the public purse, with regard to the minor percentage of learners relative to the population, as already presented above. In fact, those receiving budgetary pensions are the ones robbing the public purse, together with the whole state, which robs the public purse in the United States shamelessly with giant budgets of tens of billions of dollars.

You don’t like them — that’s your right — but that’s all in your head. In every society there are fringes, and it would be worthwhile for you to try to examine things without emotions and without intense feelings, just for your health.

And I didn’t try to drag Rabbi Michi in, but as a person with critical thinking like his, who often criticizes the Haredim and more than once mentioned their burden on society as a whole, I expected him to address it. But I was mistaken, and I’m sorry for that. Apparently he too is biased like you and unable to examine them, perhaps specifically in this sensitive period when they have been handed over to every tweeter looking for a bit of ratings, or every politician who has nothing to offer and is welcomed if he presents the great threat to our economy from those robbers.

AO, either he’s tired of it or there’s no way to refute it?.. .

There’s no subjectivity here. This is my objective experience (like seeing with my eyes). It’s just that I have no way, in a few talkbacks here, to convey an experience of 15 years. That’s not serious. I’m simply placing things before your heart. And indeed from the moment I concluded that they should not be trusted, surprisingly enough I do not trust them (so long as they have not repented — which is not what we’re talking about now; they do not even know they are choosing evil) and I interpret every action of theirs as negative, just as I do with Arabs. Therefore I also want no dealings with them. I do not call them robbers of the public purse because they did not take by force; rather, we decided to give to them, and that was a mistake in my opinion, and that’s all. One must not do business with a swindler. And not speak with him. That’s all. All the rest of the discussion about pensions and such is part of an attempt to divert the discussion. That is an internal Zionist-Israeli problem. The Haredim are another people pretending to be part of our people in order to get benefits, and that is a separate discussion. It’s like the discussion of our attitude to Arab society and National Insurance payments to them. It has nothing at all to do with budgetary pensions. Those who receive budgetary pensions are part of us and choose to be part of us, except that they latched onto private benefits. This is not a cohesive society (bound by family ties). And if they are too, then we also should have no dealings with them. If that is the case, then this is not Zionism, and we should go back to exile and dismantle the state. In any case, even in exile we should have no dealings with Haredim.

Immanuel, is this what you’re angry about? The tiny budget for all the Torah education institutions in the state, which stands at about 8.3 million NIS? Isn’t that a bit much? Call it a tithe of a tithe — but why be angry? After all, you aren’t among the top third that funds about 95% of the direct taxes, even without being asked for permission.
Immanuel, hatred is making you lose your sense and your religion, to compare your brothers — who have taken nothing from you — and I hope you never need their rescue services and the other organizations mentioned. It would be a pity if that’s what wakes you up, because usually by then it’s already too late. A little critical thought about the hatred and the blaming of the poor man’s sheep wouldn’t hurt.

I don’t understand what you want. I’m telling you what I’m saying based on observing the relations of the Haredim with the rest of the nation. Are you trying to bribe me? So what if I’m not from the upper deciles (or maybe I am? How do you know?). The way they treat them, that’s also how they’ll treat me. The whole point of being wise is to foresee what is coming. And if you frighten me, will that change my opinion? Will my words stop being true? I told you this attitude is a kind of bribery: we’ll help you when you’re helpless. But I don’t want to be helpless in the first place, and the exilic Jewish mentality is built on that helplessness. We’ll love you when you’re helpless, but God forbid that you not need us. So what do I ask God in the blessing “Builder of Jerusalem”: “Please do not make us dependent on gifts of flesh and blood or on their loans”? God forbid we should search for cures for diseases or think how to prevent them. Reactivity and passivity, not proactivity. When they help me after they stop receiving budgets (when we separate), then we’ll talk.

By the way, I do not hate them (I did loathe them, but I no longer have the energy). I loathe their mentality, and there is no choice but to separate. Even if my own brother behaved toward me like that, I would have no choice but to disconnect from him without making calculations, even if I love him. If that is his choice, then it is not good for me and not good for him.

Old Immanuel, I’m anonymous here, but if you’re the lead singer then I’m joining the choir and singing with you almost every note. I’ve gone through (as participant and observer) quite a few discussions with tiresome propagandists who’ll spin you round and round with lies and feigned innocence like the circuits around the bimah on Hoshanot, and my conclusion is that the conversation should be left to economists, or the listeners to the propaganda should be sent to read and read before they insert themselves into this utterly worn-out slot. And whoever has the soul to trouble himself with getting rid of the problem — I simply keep my head down and mind my own business. All in all, if I don’t look too far in time and place, things are not bad, knock on wood, hamsa hamsa, so what’s this trouble to me. And I’m pretty fenced off.

A few comments on Rabbi Zamir Cohen’s words.
1. Haredim do not pay indirect tax. Go to Bnei Brak and you’ll see everything is black money. (Unfortunately there are other publics too that do this and think it’s okay.)
2. Why is it okay that 40% of the Haredim don’t work and don’t pay taxes and live literally off the state treasury by choice?
3. The Haredim are a burden not only economically but also in terms of security and resources, while they give nothing to society.
4. Why should a government support at all a society that hates the government and gives it nothing? It’s really illogical and bizarre.

The Full Breadth of Your Land

Blessings upon you (and you’re actually Haredi — formerly? — no? That’s what I understood from your words when you said that in your younger days you were the only one who read Ibn Janach and Radak’s Book of Roots. Who would have believed it). I already thought I was the only crazy person who noticed these things (like that madman in Rabbi Nachman of Breslov’s story about the grain). And indeed I too wouldn’t be talking about all this if not for the present story of opening the Torah study schools in the Lithuanian public. If that causes infection to rise again, we won’t come out of this economically or medically.

I’m not Haredi, but some of my brothers were converted from Hardali-ism to Haredi-ism, and I myself was once on that track, and thank God my eyes were opened before my steps were poured out. This whole coronavirus matter doesn’t interest me that much at the macro level, and I’m not using it to form my general opinion, for various reasons. By the way, I don’t think reading the Book of Roots is something Haredi at all — on the contrary. (Janach’s embroidery can’t be read cover to cover without harming one’s sanity, and it’s one of the few books in my life that I started and thought should be read, but I simply couldn’t muster the strength to finish. Radak’s books are a completely different story, though they too would definitely benefit from new editing.)

Yishai:
1. Today you can hardly do anything with black money — maybe upgrade the kollel-men’s Subaru to a robotic Toyota Corolla.., I’ve been working as an accountant for over thirty years, and all day long I deal with clients from all sectors who from morning till night try to sting the system through fictitious expenses whenever possible. The big clients don’t pay taxes at all; they’re constantly busy expanding the company and opening more and more branches with expenses greater than income, and thus they escape tax. During the Covid period many employers continued to employ, under the table, workers who had gone on unpaid leave. When they received grants for employee retention, of course they brought them all back. Everyone, absolutely everyone, is always busy stealing and not paying taxes, some more and some less. If the Haredim, according to you, are more successful at it, it’s probably because they’re more experienced. I don’t think they’re more successful, and as I already said, black money isn’t worth much today. You can’t buy real estate with it, and almost nothing.
From walking around Bnei Brak you can’t see that the money is black unless you’ve put on subjective glasses.
2. It’s not okay, exactly like it’s not okay that in general society about 23% live off the state treasury. The small difference is that among the 17% of Haredim this stems from ideology and not pampering. It’s a way of life with value that sanctifies Torah above other things.
I don’t understand why you also claim that those forty percent live off the state treasury after Rabbi Zamir took the trouble to explain very clearly that we’re talking only about direct tax, which the vast majority of the Israeli public does not finance. Only a tiny fraction of the tax is paid by all citizens; of that about half is indirect tax, which they too pay, so what remains is a minor percentage, and it is only 17% more than the rest of society — and about that you complain?!

What’s the difference between you, if you’re from the lower seven deciles supported by the top deciles, and them? Why is that not robbing the purse? Because you pay a low marginal tax? Why are those receiving budgetary pensions not robbers of the purse? And why are the JNF and the Jewish Histadrut, with all their deals and the plundering of billions, not robbers of the purse? True, our dear Immanuel decided who counts as part of the system and who does not — but what are the Haredim guilty of because Immanuel decided to exclude them from the collective?

3. Rabbi Zamir also brought data about crime in the country, that prisons cost about three and a half billion, and as is known there aren’t too many Haredim there. What security burden exactly do they constitute? The Religious Zionist people living in outposts and settlements are a much greater economic burden, and that’s okay because it stems from an agenda? What’s the difference between someone for whom the value of Torah is sacred and someone for whom the value of the Land of Israel is sacred? Why are all the deaths caused by provocations in the settlements or by going up to the Temple Mount not considered an economic and security burden? Why do you say they give nothing to society when Rabbi Zamir presented data that Yad Sarah alone saves the state more than the entire budget given to yeshiva and kollel students?

4. Who hates the government? Even Satmar Hasidism doesn’t hate the government. There is a halakhic dispute regarding the return to the land. Yes, there are a few extremists in Meah Shearim, just as there is a radical left minority. Why give them any weight at all? Why do they represent society as a whole? What support are we talking about? Arab culture receives more than Jewish culture. How much did they attack Miri Regev when she wanted to deny budgets to films representing terrorists — are you even comparing? Where did you get that the Haredim hate the government?

Everyone has a value for which he struggles even when the law stands in the way — whether it’s the Left with the demonstrations, or animal-rights organizations when it suits them, whether it’s the settlers or the Haredim.

A little critical thinking wouldn’t hurt the readers of this site here!

The well-known philosopher Slavoj Žižek put it nicely: “Therefore the Jews had a major place in the Enlightenment in Europe, and also in the socialist and communist revolutions. Without them, Europe would not have reached those achievements. Instead of all of us becoming like Jews, the Zionist Jews became exactly like us. That is, the identity of Israeli Jews is totally connected to territory, and right now it is defined only by a territory in which they see themselves — according to the law of the State of Israel — as a race with privileges over the natives.”
Immanuel and Full Breadth:
You hate the vast majority of the Jews, and especially traditional Jews like the Haredim, who are second-class citizens in your Jewish state. In other words, all the Jewish evil toward fellow Jews stems from the very fact that you established a state.

“The stable one is on the ground while ‘Giyora’ is in the heights of heaven…”
Giyora, it’s a shame about the effort. The people here are driven by agendas, and data don’t interest them. Even if you prove to them that they are imagining things and tainted by motives, they’ll stick to their own. No one, including Rabbi Michi, has brought other data, because there isn’t any! Immanuel and company’s circling around the wall is because he has no way to deal with facts, so the best way is to attack and not answer the claims substantively!

As for the coronavirus, which our acquaintance Immanuel is so stressed about and for which he found the Haredim to blame — now because of the Torah schools that opened two weeks before everyone else —
Immanuel, stop blaming the Haredim for the coronavirus!
The Haredi issue with coronavirus is lack of trust in the system, just like everyone else’s, only they’re easy to hit!
These are the facts: until Gantz broke up Blue and White, most of the state did not take Bibi Netanyahu with his drama seriously. Not the general media, not the politicians, and not even the High Court we all fondly remember, which opened the Knesset on Thursday, and the High Court against the Shin Bet over the cellphone story. Everyone thought it was just politics. We all remember at least what happened two or three weeks ago. Do you remember Lapid’s video, for example?
The publication by Yair Sherki, a photo from the army showing soldiers sitting together at the induction center.
Why should my daughter have to go to work where there are more than a minyan of workers, but my son may not pray with a minyan? All this therefore brought about a total lack of trust in the system. From the point of view of the economy and the army, everything is allowed. But when it comes to matters of religion like praying with a minyan and children’s education, meaning Torah study, etc., that’s forbidden, and if they did not obey the order, we sent the police against them like every police state in the Third World does. Unless it’s in Balfour, where of course violence must not be used against the demonstrators.

The real story of the lightheadedness regarding the coronavirus among the whole public, including the Haredim (for the Haredim it was more critical because they are communities and families and synagogues and dense neighborhoods, etc.) is the whole political center-left including the High Court and the media, who gave all of us the feeling that the coronavirus was Netanyahu’s political drama and nothing more. In other words, the real blame lies with the careless political system, including the judicial system and the High Court. Add to that the press and media that celebrated together with the center-left against Bibi Netanyahu’s drama, and add the inability to manage anything in the political reality of the terrible parity government — all that has brought, and still brings, the public to accept the orders with limited trust. This amateur, careless government has nothing to do with minorities and minority leaders. So what does such an amateur government do? It sends police thugs straight at the masses, straight at the children. It has no other way to deal with them except through police thugs. That’s what is called a police state. There is no dialogue between the regime and the conquered population, which is the Haredi public. Everything is run through police and policemen. A police state. It’s absurd: when it comes to life, there is no difference between people, because all human beings desire life. So if there were any direct communication between the system and minorities, none of this would have happened. But when you send police instead of communicating, you make them feel you’re not sincere with them and are behaving like a thug. From here comes the minority’s lack of trust in the system even when the system speaks about real danger to life. Understand: every Haredi, even the most extreme, has electricity and water and sewage at home and family doctors, etc., and all that is managed directly between them and the authorities. There is trust on all sides. So why, in the case of coronavirus or any other case, are the natural connections that exist between the regime and the minority absent? It is therefore natural that if you send police instead of communicating, you make them feel you are not sincere with them, and therefore you behave like a bully. From here the masses’ lack of trust in precisely the matter that most requires trust.

And all this, aside from the ordinary life wisdom of the public as individuals. Suppose a person did everything the authorities told him, yet still felt unwell and was tested within that same governmental system and came out negative. He returns home, collapses, and within a day dies. And afterward it turns out he was positive. And we are talking about a Jew whom there is no Haredi in the world who did not know quite closely: Rabbi Ben Zion Kuperstock, of blessed saintly memory. In other words, the story of the system’s failure in a simple test spreads at lightning speed when it concerns a person everyone knows.

I gave a tragic example of a man who sincerely always acted according to what he was told. He was never one of the smart-alecks. And the public sees and internalizes that it has no one to rely on. Add to that that the public is, as always, alert to the great arguments among the professionals here in the country, which are usually ego-driven, but even abroad there are major disputes about the right way. Up to this moment there is nothing one can truly rely on. A few days ago it turned out that the virus can travel up to 8 meters in the air (a study by researchers at MIT found that droplets of saliva in which coronavirus particles may be found can reach as far as eight meters after a sneeze or cough, not two meters as guidelines around the world require). In other words, the World Health Organization said two meters is enough. And now it turns out that it is not enough, and this may explain the outbreak in Haredi localities that are dense neighborhoods. In other words, the Haredim acted reasonably like the general public; it just turned out that two meters was not enough.

A little satire won’t hurt.

Have a lovely rest of the day, everyone,
Tam.

Giyora,
1. The claim that everyone steals does not change the fact that Haredim also steal. Other than real estate and cars, you can buy almost everything off the books.
2. First of all, we need to see what exactly is included in this statistic. Does it also include Bedouins (who by all accounts are a burden on the state and also seize land that isn’t theirs)? Does it include elderly people who are too old and don’t need to work? In any case, the people from the general public who don’t work usually live with their parents or work unofficially or are homeless, and there are other cases too. One thing is certain: they do not do this out of ideology, and certainly do not see it as an ideal state to live at others’ expense. In contrast, the Haredim sanctify it, and 40% of them make their living at the state’s expense.
3. There is a need to guard and protect them while they do not enlist. They do not provide resources to the state, unlike the settlers who work and enlist and help protect themselves. There is also such a thing as the economy, and most Haredim contribute nothing to GDP even if their nonprofits are very nice and help a lot. (Which makes them an economic burden.)
4. Here are a few quotes:
A. Rabbi Aviezer Pilz, head of Tifrach Yeshiva, at an assembly for United Torah Judaism before the 2015 elections, in the presence of all the heads of Lithuanian Jewry:
“We have no argument with Satmar. Going to the army is non-kosher, the Zionist movement is a disaster. But we follow the path of the great rabbis who instructed us to vote despite the heresy in Zionism.”
B. It is told that once the revered Chazon Ish said: what is the difference between me and others? Others say, ‘This is a state’; therefore it is forbidden to turn to them and participate with them in anything, let alone with their institutions. And I say: ‘This is a band of robbers,’ and one must make efforts with them in order to reduce their robbery and plunder.
C. Rabbi Elazar Shach, in the book BeSearat Esh, entry “Hashkafa”:
“Once the righteous Rabbi A. Katzenelbogen, one of the leaders of Neturei Karta, spoke at his house for a long time and voiced his views and opinions with all his sharpness.
When he left, he said to me: ‘I hold exactly like him — only the wording and mode of conduct are different.’”
D. “Rabbi Yoel [of Satmar] sent to ask our master [Rabbi Steinman] whether it was indeed worthwhile for him himself to come up to the Holy Land. Our master answered him that since his son-in-law, the Rebbe of Sassov, had already come up to the Holy Land and intended to work from here against the intentions of the Zionists, it would be fitting for him (the Satmar Rebbe) to remain abroad, and so they would fight together, this one from here and that one from there. And indeed Rabbi Yoel accepted it.” [Booklet KaAyal Ta’arog]
In short, the Haredi outlook is very clear and strongly opposed to Zionism. By the way, the Chazon Ish did not hide this at all; he said it to Ben-Gurion’s face in the famous parable of the two wagons. By the way, it is also very puzzling to me that the government supports Arabs who oppose the government. (Of course not all Arabs oppose the government, but as for those who do, it is very puzzling that the state supports them; the same applies to the hilltop youth.)

Don’t expect a response from Michi. His hatred of the Haredi public is so great that you won’t find in him a grain of willingness to speak in their defense or to find any merit in them.

After all, Reform women rabbis do not come from this public, so there is not a trace in their lifestyle and conduct that will merit serious examination and discussion from him. At most they will serve as targets for arrows of ridicule and hatred, to the best of his ability.

To Ahmed

The communist Jews tried (in blindness and madness) to repair the world through revolutions, and because they were driven by ego — the Jewish ego trying with all its might to manage in exile under the lord. Communism was the peak of this (it erased nations, religions, whatever you like, in the name of holy, false equality, over which stand supervisors who are “equal but more equal”). It all blew up in their faces in the Holocaust. No wonder Zionism loathes this exilic Jewish mentality.

It was precisely the Zionists who strangely understood that the Jewish people are “a nation that shall dwell alone,” and that if we do not take care of ourselves, no one else will. Indeed the great enemy of Zionism today is the leftist democratic religion. Leftism and Haredi-ism are loyal allies. Both sanctify the individual (and among the Haredim also the community — “our own people”) and deny the nation.

To Tam,

My approach to the Haredim was built over about 15 years. Corona only put a final seal on it (actually it didn’t change too much, but I really did not believe the Haredim could be so foolish that even in matters of health every word of the government is persecution, even against logic and common sense). The childish mentality that complains about sporadic corona violators (who do not act as a society, except for the demonstrators whose judgment indeed is like that of the Haredim) and only looks for how to get back to Haredi routine without considering the consequences — that is exactly what I loathe. Moreover, the violation of the guidelines by the Haredim is systemic. Yair Lapid is no one’s rebbe, and I have no expectations of him. He is a child. But an entire public that systematically doesn’t care about anything except maintaining its conservative lifestyle in blindness and madness — that is already a heavy disaster. Indeed leftism and the believers in the religion of democracy (the infantile ones) are judged the same as the Haredim. Be sure that I also have great hostility toward that mentality and the blindness involved in it. People who care about nothing except the principles of their (non-Torah) religion. The common denominator of both is that they do not care about the nation and the collective and the consequences of their actions for it. And by the way, quite a lot of this lack of trust in the government is a product of people seeing their leaders give in again and again to a pressure group (the Haredim) out of lust for power. That discourages anyone. Only this time it will cost the people a great deal of money and lives.

And Tam,

By the way, some of the things you wrote are unbelievable in their stupidity and obtuseness. There is 20% unemployment and an 11% deficit, small businesses are closing, people are losing their livelihood — and the Haredim are the only ones whose budgets were not harmed by the crisis — and you’re talking nonsense to me about praying with a minyan, which is actually permitted, just outside? Are you comparing the army, which is a necessary need — not some secular hobby, believe me they would prefer to give up the army — to praying with a minyan? Are you okay? Do you think going to work is some obligation your daughter has? She should say thank you that she has a job at all and something to bring bread to her home. Do you think working is some kind of privilege the secular public has? That they just work for fun? That it’s recreation? Or some “religious” right they have and you don’t? People work so there will be food to eat and among other things also to pay budgets to the Haredim, and they in their great audacity are trying to ruin everything people are trying to achieve in this lockdown just because it’s hard for them to study Torah at home and pray outside the synagogue and dance on Simchat Torah (Jewish folklore, not even a custom and certainly not something of “be killed rather than transgress” or worth collapsing the economy over). The very fact that you don’t understand such basic things only illustrates to me to what depths of stupidity and obtuseness the Haredi public has reached.

In short, you are exactly the living proof of everything I wrote above.

To Giyora,

By the way, your experience as an accountant. Indeed the mentality of theft and deals you describe among your clients is indeed the classic exilic Jewish mentality that still clings to nearly all Jews in the world and also to nearly all Israeli Jews. For indeed maybe the Israeli Jews came out of exile, but exile has still not come out of them (just as it is easy to take the criminal out of the neighborhood but hard to take the neighborhood out of the criminal). But whereas among other Israelis this way of life is a flaw deeply rooted in a mentality inherited from their exilic parents (and sometimes necessary against governmental arbitrariness, which indeed exists and is well described by Ephraim Kishon), among the Haredim this mentality is displayed publicly and is fixed as an a priori and ideological part of their way of life. I doubt they could even establish a state of their own. Which lord would they deceive and scheme around?

And indeed the JNF and the Histadrut and the Left and its institutions are an excellent example of people who wanted statehood, but desire ruled them and in the end they too did not succeed in escaping the arms of the unproductive and exploitative mentality (the sparks fell into the shells). Yet somehow out of the chaos and confusion of ego arose a state, which is itself a kind of miracle — that Jews are capable of cooperating at all, even to save their lives and honor (and for that it is worth saying Hallel on Independence Day). But the Haredim try with all their strength to fight even the little good that exists. There you have why I specifically excluded the Haredim from the collective. By the way, the Left today is doing an excellent job of excluding itself from the collective too. The High Court is the Haredim’s best friend.

In short, whereas the Israelis you speak about are aware that what they are doing is wrong and there is a chance they may repent, the Haredim are not even aware that this way of life is evil. That is the big difference between the JNF and the Histadrut on the one hand and the Haredim on the other.

Immanuel (do you know the Christian interpretation of that name?). It amuses and saddens me to see in Religious Zionist kindergartens and schools pictures of a handful of rabbis. In every classroom and corridor — Rav Kook and Rabbi Tzvi Yehuda, with all kinds of sayings about love of Israel and the nation and the light. And every so often Rabbi Neria, Rabbi Uziel, and Rabbi Nissim. Every year the state-religious system puts out yearly study booklets on a chosen figure. Last year: Rabbi Shaul Yisraeli. The year before: Rabbi Neria. They scrape material and gather every half-story to build a glorious hagiography of some seven rabbis whose common denominator is: the Chief Rabbinate, the holiness of the fighter, and mobilized Zionism. Ah, and of course! Love of Israel. Because that is the root of the whole Torah. You won’t find a trace of Rabbi Elyashiv, Rabbi Steinman, the Chazon Ish, the Vilna Gaon, the Baal Shem Tov, and others — even though the collection of stories and guiding tales that can be extracted from them for little children is far more available than what you can collect from several rabbis, some of them very minor. What is the product of this re-education? What Judaism emerges from this love of “Israel”? The product is Immanuel. There are countless like you. The hatred in you reminds me very much of what the Führer presented in the Third Reich. Lucky you don’t have his charisma. Lucky you’re wasting your time here and not in a key position (which wouldn’t leave you time for all the personal diaries you’ve scattered here). Because in the end, even many Haredim would agree with most of your claims, but unlike you and your mask-loving “lovers of Israel,” they are not interested in their annihilation.

Here’s an example of a wise and critical man (my teacher and rabbi in several matters) whose acquaintance with the Haredi sector is no less deep than that of our friend son-of-the-maiden: https://www.makorrishon.co.il/magazine/249567/

To Gil,

I do not know why you suspect me of love of Israel. I do not love Israel. I simply understood from history that I need to cooperate with other Jews or else I will die. The people of Merkaz HaRav are not especially beloved to me either. But with them I can still cooperate because they understand the evil I’m talking about (though it clings to them as well, as to all of us). But cooperation is mutual, and one cannot cooperate with someone who does not want it. I am not interested in the annihilation of the Haredim. They would very much like that, as would you, that I should want their annihilation. Wonderful. There is a new persecutor (Haman) whose effigy we can burn on Lag BaOmer. But I simply want to separate from them. I am indifferent to them. I will not rejoice in their fall nor grieve at their rise. I love myself and want my own success, and the Haredim interfere with me. That’s all.

By the way, the Führer. Over the years I actually increasingly understand him. He indeed saw the evil that exists in Jews (which, sadly, exists in me too). The problem with him was that he was a savage and acted from his gut (out of madness, not from rational judgment). In order to separate from the Haredim (or from the Jews), there is no need — and it is forbidden — to murder people. One only needs to separate, that’s all. Give them autonomy. What they do with it is their problem. Just let them not harass everyone else who does want cooperation. By the way, your sanctimonious Godwin tactic is a well-known Haredi trick that I also loathe. You’re trying to play on liberal strings I don’t have? Go look for other suckers. And believe me, I have thought through the consequences of separation from the Haredim and reached the sober conclusion that there is no avoiding it and that it is worth the price we will pay. Besides, the people who are today in positions of influence are not more caring than I am. They are simply a bunch of opportunists who would sell anything (even their own public) in order to sit in those positions of influence.

As for charisma, I don’t think he was all that charismatic. He simply hit upon something everyone else knew, only they didn’t know that they knew it. I rather suspect that I do not fall short of him in charismatic ability (in my obviously biased opinion). Maybe I really should start speaking before an audience. You’ve given me motivation.

To Gil,

And in addition, I don’t understand why the Haredim, who agree with everything I say, so much want to live together with everyone else. Why did they come here to the land after the Zionists (apart from the old yishuv)? To make their lives miserable? Would they have come after us to Uganda too? Why are they so sure one cannot live without them? If Torah scholars are needed, we’ll raise them from among ourselves.

With God’s help, 3 Cheshvan 5781

To Gil — greetings,

The chosen figure for last year in the state-religious school system (the year 5780) was the Rishon LeZion Rabbi Yitzhak Nissim. He had excellent relations with Rabbi Tzvi Pesach Frank, with Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, and with Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, with whom he sat together on the Great Rabbinical Court. Rabbi Nissim brought Rabbi Shaul Yisraeli from Kfar HaRoeh to the Great Rabbinical Court, and he too had excellent relations with Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv. And one may hope that Rabbi Shaul Yisraeli too will be given a year in the state-religious system.

With blessings,
S. Z. Levinger, librarian, “Yad Harav Nissim”

Immanuel, you sound like a reincarnation of the Judenrat.

With God’s help, Wednesday of the portion “From These the Nations Were Divided,” 5781

To Immanuel — greetings,

The idea of separating into separate political units is not a bad idea and would save quite a few conflicts, except that it needs a little completion.

It is not enough to have one separate state for the Haredim and one state for everyone else — we need several more states: a state for Lithuanians, a state for Sephardim, and a state for Hasidim, and separate states for Chabad and Breslov, and likewise a separate state for every sub-stream.

Likewise, in the Religious Zionist public too, we need a separate state for the liberals, a state for the Hardalim, and another state for those in the middle. And of course a state for the RMD-ists that will be “a state of all its commenters” 🙂

The secular public too needs a number of states: one for the right and one for the left, one for the traditionalists and one for the “ultra-secular,” one for Bibists and one for devotees of the High Court, etc.

And also a number of states for minorities: one for Muslims and several for Christians of their various sects, one for Druze and one for Circassians, one for Sudanese and one for Eritreans, etc.

In short, we will establish here an “Israeli Commonwealth of Nations,” and merit representation of dozens of states at the UN. Thus we will gain proper representation at the UN that will balance the dozens of Arab and Muslim states.

There need not be rigid borders between all the states of the “Israeli Commonwealth.” Like the health funds — everyone can choose the state that gives him the services a state gives.

With the blessing “Peoples shall serve you and Ashkenazim bow down to you,”
S. Z.

Immanuel,
As I already wrote to you at the start of the thread, I am not interested in condescending, inflammatory talk and paternalism about this one or that one. You dragged the subject into regions of hatred unrelated to the body of the question that was asked. With all your slanderous words, you still did not answer the question why the Haredi is perceived as a robber of the public purse when about 95% of direct tax is paid by the upper deciles, so that most citizens of the state are themselves robbers of the public purse.
From your comments my answer was provided: they indeed are not different from the rest of society, except that against them one can say anything without censorship — compare them to terrorists, even Hitler, may his name be blotted out, you recruited to your ranks. You proved to all of us where polarizing Israeli discourse stands today, and how impossible it is to conduct a substantive conversation with people brainwashed by the media for fifteen years.
Your analogies are so absurd that you even agreed to take upon yourself a little of the exile-mentality which you see as the face of evil, falsehood, and failure. I don’t know whether you are aware of this or unable to contain such data, but human beings by nature are always busy scheming the system. Mr. Donald Trump is not a Jew, and he too loves not to pay taxes through schemes; likewise Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo, or any person with a lot of money and little scruple. There is no connection between greed and Jews. Maybe Jews simply know how to do it better, as I see in my office. Apparently there is something in our gene that is a bit smarter — what’s wrong with that?!
S. Z. and Gil answered you well. If you are not pleased with those who fall outside your narrow spectrum, go off to Berlin or Switzerland and get along there with squares. Israeli society is diverse and complex. One needs to respect the opinion of the other, even if he does not fit my own perceptions.
I already wrote to you that I know this public well, though I am not part of it. I have quite a bit of criticism of it, as I do of every society and every person — there is no perfection in the world. Their general direction is positive, far more than other societies here in our little country. The fact that you zoom in on their extremists does not change the real reality. It seems you have proved here for all to see that you are unable to look positively at this society.
Personally, I was pained that they live at all our expense, and in my innocence I thought they were taking all the taxes I pay. Rabbi Zamir presented other data. I understood that the media had succeeded in brainwashing me on this point. I thought I’d clarify it here on the site. Maybe there is information Rabbi Zamir hid from us, and indeed the Haredim are more of an economic burden than he presented. Up to this moment, no one — including you, with all your analogies — has refuted his facts. And don’t tell us stories: if you had facts to present, you would wave them on every possible platform, as you wrote about your aspiration to lecture on separation from all those who do not match your agenda.
Conclusion: the Haredim are not an economic burden; perhaps overall they even contribute more than they take. Rabbi Zamir presented it tastefully and intelligently, and it’s a pity that Rabbi Michi ran from this important discussion, in my opinion.
Good luck to you, Immanuel, with the autonomy you’ll establish for yourself — just don’t take with you the tycoons who support you and from whose sweat you rob.

Immanuel:
I’m still amazed at the amount of hatred in you. Do you realize that you wrote the following:
“By the way, the Führer. Over the years I actually increasingly understand him. He indeed saw the evil that exists in Jews (which, sadly, exists in me too).”
You’ve even lost the musician who joined you above in singing the filth and hatred.

1. Giyora, you didn’t respond to what I wrote.
2. Since I am a religious person, I don’t have much of a problem with the Haredim. I don’t like Haredi ideology and condescension. But with individual people I have no problem, and of course I have a lot to learn from them.
3. I do think it’s strange that a secular state supports a society that so strongly opposes it and scorns it. Ben-Gurion must be turning in his grave that he agreed to give budgets to the Haredim. After all, he did it only because he thought the 400 Haredim he was funding were the last ones in the state, and he didn’t believe Haredi society would grow so much.

In any case, if the Haredim live so well, at the expense of the upper deciles who groan and moan under the heavy burden, then we have a simple solution: come and join.

Instead of working hard and wasting money on brands, entertainment, and vacations abroad, the groaning masses can join the Haredi public — study in kollel from morning till night and receive a modest stipend that does not reach minimum wage, raise ten children or more in a cramped apartment, and thus enjoy life on the backs of the poor laborers.

Arise, shake off your dust, starving slaves — join the Haredim and enjoy life. Your strength to the Torah!

With blessings,
The Hedonist

To Giyora and S. Z.,

First of all, not hatred but loathing. Yes, there is loathing. I don’t apologize for it. It’s not a sin. I see something bad that you don’t see, and that is what I loathe. One day you too will see, when your approach blows up in your face, as happened to Rabbi Michi. Don’t be impressed by Haredim as individuals. One-on-one, all human beings are nice (all human beings need something from you). But when it comes to their interests, they hide behind their social apron in order to take from you whatever they can (“to rescue from the lion and the bear”). They simply are not aware of this side of their behavior. And I said that I really do understand the Nazis. Understanding is not taboo. Nazis is not a word you pull out to end discussions. I don’t care about nonsense about condescending discourse. I have arguments here. Address them or don’t. I don’t care whether people defend me or not. I am not writing to please someone. As far as I’m concerned I can be the last and only person on earth who says this. It will not detract from the truth (or falsehood) of what I say.

In addition, reading comprehension. I have the feeling I’m writing to myself. I do think the Haredim are different from everyone else. Everyone else tries to scheme the system after the fact and while knowing it is a sin. If it were from the outset, human society could not exist. And that is also what happened at the end of the First Temple era (Jeremiah: “faith has perished and is cut off from their mouths”), whose end was exile. Among the Haredim it is from the outset and even a commandment. They simply do not see the rest of the Jews as part of the same people. From their perspective we are gentiles whom it is permitted to steal from. That is not said explicitly and is not considered explicitly, but it is a subconscious mentality passed from generation to generation (with mother’s milk). These things were written from observation of more than ten years. It is simply part of the Haredi mentality, which is a continuation of the exilic Jewish mentality. All the discussions here about tax calculations are irrelevant. I have no idea and I also cannot believe any person because the discussion is contaminated (everyone presents only data that supports his position). What I have is only what my eyes see and plain common sense. And after 15 years, this is the fairly strong and well-founded impression I have: that these people (as a society) cannot be trusted, and that if they can they will deceive me (on the social-national level) as much as possible. I am a gentile (not one of “our own people”) from whom it is permitted to steal and a commandment to rescue from the lion and the bear. You see the slips of the tongue of the Chazon Ish and Rabbi Ovadia and all the great Haredi rabbis from time to time. From their perspective I am the thief as long as I am not one of them, and that is an axiom and principle of faith in the Haredi religion regardless of any external reality. So why should I care whether in practice they managed to steal more or less? I don’t want to live with people who every moment are thinking how to scheme me over. And if things have reached this level among all the individuals in the state, then the state should be dismantled, in the words of Jeremiah: “Oh that I had in the wilderness a lodging place for wayfaring men…”

To S. Z.,

The issue of splitting the state into several states is indeed taking the situation to absurdity. But indeed if the ego runs wild in the state, it really will break apart (everyone will have a state for himself). But read what I wrote: that I am willing to live with anyone willing to cooperate in the duties of maintaining a state. That is, to live with anyone who truly wants to live with me. The Haredim clearly separate themselves from the state (that is their right and, according to them, their duty), but not from its budgets and services (and there lies their wickedness). If the Hardalim go in their path, then with them too it will not be possible to live, but it seems to me that’s not the case. They work and serve in the army. So they’re also a bit self-righteous (actually a lot), but leftists are too. In short, I want a state of Jews who believe that the Jewish people deserve a state of their own and are willing to contribute to shared existence. The Haredim and the Arabs are not.

And to Giyora,

I really would go to Berlin, except that there the situation is even worse. There too they fund Muslims who want to destroy them — which is exactly what I’m writing here — and so it is in all the rest of Western Europe and in America and Canada and Australia, that is what is going to happen thanks to the crazy stupid Left taking over those countries. In short, in the East there are primitive barbarians, and in the West noisy feeble-minded infantilists. The common denominator is that everywhere in the world injustice now rules, and we are in the middle. What I propose is what is just. Why should I go to Berlin? The Haredim should go there — after all, they are the ones who love exile. What do they want from me? I also don’t want to send them there. Only to separate here in the land. Everyone can stay here.

There is also plenty of data from serious economists and forecasts and research institutes. But not every time some random person pops up with a new chewed-up propaganda crumb do we need to stand at attention and restart the discussion with him and recall all the details and wrestle with him over what he brought and run looking for sources. Whoever hasn’t yet reached conclusions based on data should read, discuss, and reach them. Others have their conclusions. And speaking for myself, the only emotion at work in me in these discussions is contempt and concern, even though others like to think that everyone who thinks they are a disgraceful human failure and moral-economic bankrupts says so because he has baggage from the past or all sorts of psychoanalysis (though I don’t dismiss arguments whose motivations are indeed such). And precisely regarding corona, personally I am not all that critical and in some measure understand the moves (and even when there is a charging herd, my instinct tells me: wait, wait. Even if I don’t think the herd is wrong).

Immanuel, it seems the discussion has pretty much reached exhaustion.
I’ll summarize:
A. We all admit that Rabbi Zamir presented data according to which Haredi society is far from being an economic burden.
B. Full Breadth claims there are other data but avoids presenting them.
C. Immanuel can’t stand the Haredim — that’s his right — as do all those building theory upon theory that cannot be disproved, because after all even the Haredi is unaware that he is a liar.
D. Everyone steals; among the Haredim it is from the outset, and among others it is forbidden. (I don’t know what’s worse.)
E. The whole world outside your spectrum, Immanuel, is wrong, and will lead us to doom.
F. We would all prefer to lose our wallet in Bnei Brak….

Reached exhaustion.

A. Rabbi Zamir presented data according to which…

And to S. Z.,

Don’t be impressed by the Haredim’s “modest” lifestyle. If they could, the great majority of them would indeed live materialistic lives. But most of them (the Hasidim and Sephardim mainly) are simply untalented, unsuccessful people, or nebachs, who in secular society too would be poor and losers — and not by choice. So the Haredi lifestyle (and in the rest of the world — the religious Christian or Muslim one) is their refuge. All the rest (those who do have talent) are simply naive people. In short, this idealism is a bluff and a deception. Every person in the world would be willing to give a lot for meaning in his existence, because it would make him significant. People are even willing to die so that they will have some significance (at least in their own eyes) and won’t just be nobodies, and for that people are willing to sacrifice a great deal. But in truth these people are not really more spiritual than the secular public. In Haredi society they have 10 children because, in addition to wisdom and talent, that is currency in that society (like in other primitive tribal societies). Whoever has more children is worth more (like money in secular society). So if a person in that society is not smart, the only thing left for him to do that will give him some importance is to reproduce — and as much as possible. I doubt there is even one person in the Haredi public (and generally among human beings) who truly fulfills the commandment “be fruitful and multiply” — that is, who on his own would not have had children at all, and only because of God’s command does so.

I simply can’t believe how shallow people can be and unable to see things in depth.

Do you think anyone works for you or what? If you had brought a study by a serious economist that presented analyses or conclusions contradicting the views I’ve formed for myself, then I’d consider re-entering the discussion, because maybe my view would update. But what did you bring here? You brought a known chatterbox who has no hand or foot in economics, and whose methodology is problematic in my opinion — and that seems to you like a reasonable basis for a normal discussion? It’s obvious to me that if I enter this discussion, I’ll be the one doing all the serious work here of methodological clarification and presenting data and weeding out errors and explaining things to the hard-of-understanding and separating grain from chaff, and I have no intention of doing that. But if you think some challenge was presented here, I am honored to inform you (ceremoniously) that you are mistaken. Besides, not every opinion I hold is one I also want to proclaim at length in a large public. Even if I had the time on hand (sadly I don’t in the near future), and were willing and ready to reload all the data and analyses back into my head (and I’m not willing), and to be the schoolteacher of random guests (which of course I am not interested in being) — the current climate is not the right time to push more stones after those who are already falling. Whoever’s role it is, it’s his role, but it is not my role to wipe up someone else’s nonsense.

Full Breadth:
The time you waste going round and round without presenting a shred of data is rather pathetic. I understand your distress, but as I already wrote, I’m not young enough for brawling. I presented Rabbi Zamir’s words because I thought that probably he was hiding something or distorting, etc. I thought that here on the site I would get an answer. Rabbi Michi fled, and all the other bores jumped in and led the discussion somewhere else entirely: are the Haredim in general right in their way? On the issue of the economic burden, neither you nor your friend Immanuel has any answer.

It’s a pity that hatred drives you out of your minds and you cannot deal with data and cross-checks, or simply admit that all of us were carried away by cheap populism.

And you, Immanuel — a little humility wouldn’t hurt. Your absolute positions on every matter only make it less likely that one will be convinced your words about the Haredim come from objective observation and criticism.

By the way, Rabbi Zamir’s data are based on the Central Bureau of Statistics and on facts from economists. So to claim that he doesn’t understand economics without dealing with the facts and just throwing slogans around is not very persuasive. Just a point for thought, for you, Full Breadth.

Pathetic or not pathetic, I’m already fed up with these discussions and I’m not interested in dealing with it anymore. The difference between an economist and Rabbi Zamir is not just access to Central Bureau of Statistics data, but understanding how one measures the deficit of a group of people. So if you want to form an opinion for yourself, my recommendation is that you look for serious studies by serious people, or discussions in other places where serious people have been willing to teach the latest chick. But if you were convinced, then all is well and good, and I really have no problem with that. Pour yourself a full measure and break into a stormy dance.

To Giyora and Full Breadth,

I also don’t understand why you ignore corona. My main problem is not with the infection and the contempt of individual people, but rather — already after the general disregard by many Hasidic groups, with Belz at the head — with Rabbi Kanievsky’s explicit instruction, which simply ignored the government and the Ashkenazi Haredi MKs who stood behind it (they stood behind Rabbi Kanievsky). It is simply impossible to go on living like this. These people have no notion of respect for the concept of life in society among human beings. It’s them and no one else. It’s impossible to strip budgets from institutions that systematically violated the instruction, because the Haredi MKs would leave the government and Bibi would give them everything. He does this because he knows that the other side too (the Left) would be willing to give them everything, and in that he is right. It follows that these people rule over us. It was simply humiliating to see Netanyahu flattering and begging that they do us a favor and stay home. In the next lockdown, who will be willing to close his business when the Haredim thumb their nose at it and there is no enforcement? Who will keep any law at all after this story? It opens the door to chaos and destruction. There is no choice but to separate from the Haredim, otherwise it will be the end of the Jewish settlement here.

Yishai, I just now saw your words, and I’ll refer you to column 321 on the Haredi subtext. You have no reason to get excited by pompous words of rabbis against the state. I’m not talking about the extremists like Neturei Karta.
2. Haredi condescension is subjective; in my opinion it is no different from other populations in the macro sense. And if you knew the quiet, central middle slice that gets no coverage, you’d be amazed at their respectful behavior.
3. Ben-Gurion is not the landlord here, and most likely if he is turning in his grave, it is over many other ills besides the shekels thrown at Haredi society — especially since Yad Sarah alone, as stated, saves far beyond the budget of all the yeshivot, including those of the Religious Zionists.
4. The discussion was about robbers of the public purse. It seems that even on this point you already agreed that they washed our brains.
5. As for black money — if everyone steals, what do you want from them? Especially when you inferred it on the basis of a walk around Bnei Brak. That seems to me a bit unserious. And if with black money you can only buy food and at most an armchair, I’m fine with that. Those are little bugs. The big money that is stolen is stolen in the open by the self-employed in a much greater and stronger way. I know the data from the inside.

Immanuel, as Tam already wrote here, the story of coronavirus with Haredi society is a severe crisis of trust. The media presented it as Bibi’s political madness. Every speculator got an honorable platform in every media outlet, from Professor Les to Liberman’s last expert, who presented the virus as Bibi’s political tool.
Instead of investing in explanation within the suspicious Haredi society, they preferred to send the police. The government’s conduct is reckless; every two days they change the government’s decisions. There is almost no person who could have prevented damage to his values or to his interests and did not prevent it. Every body that could organize and create leverage did so, whether they were independent left-wing organizations or the restaurateurs. The individuals were left miserable and beaten. The difference between Haredi individuals and others is that they have a force that unites them. Haredi power is in obedience to rabbis, which unites them, and therefore they succeed. When the Teachers’ Union wants something, it acts fearlessly against everyone. So too the Workers’ Federation and the disability organizations. Power wins — that’s how it is in our regions.

By the way, Immanuel, if you had a certain value for which you would violate a law, you should not complain. Everyone has his values. Respect them, just as you respect the demonstrations and Liberman, who called to act according to common sense, even though his value is to burn us all so long as Bibi is inside.

And another point for thought: coronavirus is a worldwide problem even though Haredim are not residents of the whole globe. Rest easy, Immanuel. I too am pained by the situation in which anyone who has an organized force, with the power of an entire public cooperating with his thoughts, does whatever he wants.

A final specific point: I think the Haredim are right in opening educational institutions for early childhood. At the moment the vaccine is not on the horizon, and the emotional harm to children is far more severe than their risk of complications from the virus. It would have been fitting for those at risk to guard themselves because fate dealt them that hand, just as pregnant women guard themselves more. That’s life. Sometimes there are complexities and you can’t make everyone come out even. The at-risk minority or the elderly will have to wait patiently. It would have been fitting to invest in programs for them that would gather them together and provide an appropriate response for this period, rather than throwing all of us into this vortex.

Giyora,

You have a serious problem. There really is no point. You can find excuses for anything. If you don’t understand what is so grave here, then you have a serious problem. There is no discussion here about whether they are right or not. They simply refuse to accept the decisions of the society in which they live, and that’s it. Nothing else matters to them. It can’t be that everyone in a state says “this is how I do it.” The state will fall apart. The people need to take responsibility and keep the government’s directives, otherwise we will all suffer — including the Haredim themselves. Anarchists always claim that anyway everyone is breaking the law. But there is no entire society that breaks the law. The demonstrators were individuals not bound by social ties, and the police enforced the law on them too. Lobbying and intercession have existed since the cradle of humanity, and still most people keep the law, not out of self-righteousness, but because otherwise people would swallow one another alive — and that the Haredim do not understand. There is no need to invest in any explanation. If Haredim don’t understand such basic things, they are senseless and should not be part of any Western society. And truthfully I’m already tired of this ridiculous propaganda. If you don’t understand what is wrong with it, then you too are exactly as infantile as they are. And with that I’m done. I’m out of strength.

Amazing to see how Rabbi Michi disappears when there’s a substantive discussion about Haredim.

Immanuel, I won’t descend to your violent and condescending tone. I’ll just recommend that you go over what I wrote again. I didn’t say that the value of praying with a minyan in an enclosed space is as important as going out and getting the economy moving. All I claimed was that there is a severe crisis of trust in Haredi society. The analogy to a minyan was no more than an attempt to convey the Haredi mindset.

And by the way, I do not respect the demonstrations or Liberman. Are you reading what I write here? How many times can I write it? What’s wrong with you? Do you have a reading-comprehension problem? Liberman and Lapid should have been put on trial for incitement. No one else is fighting for his values except the crazy demonstrators, and even they gather only outside, and there was enforcement among them too. You don’t see the Left fighting to open the cultural institutions, because those are in closed halls. Even they haven’t yet lost common sense. Everyone else is fighting to have money so they have something to eat. Only the Haredim got all their budgets and still it isn’t enough for them. I am indeed in favor of their getting no budgets at all and making a wall around their towns and doing there whatever they want, and that they should treat their own sick. As far as I’m concerned, anyone who violates a corona law should not receive hospital treatment.

Do you not understand that everyone else here is fighting for their physical survival? What is the Haredim’s story? They can’t study at home and pray outside the synagogue? Parents can’t teach their children at home? What is this pampering? Zero consideration for the rest of the public. What is wrong with these people? How can one be so infantile and stupid?

To Tam,

Rabbi Michi disappeared justly (even though I’m sure he’s not on my side; he will always try by force to be in the middle). The lack of sense and the obtuseness in this propaganda can drive a normal person crazy. The Haredim always have a severe crisis of trust with the state. For them, everything from the state (any state, anyone who isn’t them) is persecution. It’s already a reflex. They’re doing us a favor by obeying the law and behaving like human beings. I’ve had enough of this. It’s already unbearable.

Data from the Alon Headquarters: 41% of Israelis in isolation violated it, thousands gave partial information in investigations • Senior officials: “We have no solution”

https://www.israelhayom.co.il/interactive/amp/article/803713

Come on, what does that have to do with the Haredim? Giyora wrote well: the Haredim are organized, and therefore they don’t give a damn and act according to healthy logic. Everyone else is just a collection of individuals with nothing uniting them, so they violate the law individually; it just doesn’t create buzz.

To Immanuel,
Rabbi Michi disappeared because, like you, he doesn’t deal with data and facts. He prefers to believe those who claimed there were cries of distress from apartments in Bnei Brak and all kinds of other nonsense. I’ll copy and attach it if you don’t know his bizarre words in column 290 against the Haredim.
You keep generalizing all Haredim with false accusations because of your preconceived and biased opinions against them, as you have proved to all of us. There is no way to persuade the locked-in.
Extreme or obsessive behavior by a person in a certain area generally reflects his own inner struggle in that area.

Back to Rabbi Michi: it is terribly disappointing to see how he defended the Haredim who leave religion when I argued that most of them do not come out as normal Israelis — whether due to the Haredim’s fault or not, that is a fact. He argued passionately that he is against generalizations and defended Mr. Gorlin’s bizarre questions about the curses of his Haredi neighbors’ grandson. Then Rabbi Michi claimed it was an important question worthy of discussion, and answered tastefully and patiently. Here he chose to flee to the hole in his cave, because it is simply more convenient than going around and cursing, like you and Full Breadth, without the ability to address facts.

Just to remind you all, in column 290 Michi wrote:

“As a result of this reckless and infantile conduct, in recent days we have been hearing that in Bnei Brak, the city of Torah, righteousness, and piety, control has been completely lost. I now see hysterical messages from Haredi social-media users speaking of people dying of hunger, a terrible plague, total loss of control and leadership, great fear and complete despair. I think these things are not proportionate even relative to the situation in Bnei Brak, and perhaps some of them are trolls, but they certainly point to the feeling that has been created there, and it is entirely to be expected in my view that this is what would happen.”

How did Rabbi Michi once write:
“In my understanding, a person’s wars are usually conducted mainly with himself, except that he projects them onto others. His way of coping with things that trouble and bother him internally, especially when he feels helpless against them, is to fight those phenomena when they appear in others. This is a certain shade of the phenomenon of disqualifying others by one’s own flaw. Sometimes he diagnoses in others the problems that exist in him though they do not exist in them (what is called in psychology ‘projection’), but even if they do exist in them, he relates to it with excessive zeal and extremism. People at peace with themselves and with their path generally conduct themselves calmly.”

Good luck, Immanuel. Just try to relate to evidence like the last link I brought.

Tam. First, you too are fighting here, and I naturally assume that in your case there are no projections — you are simply standing up for the truth and only presenting facts about which there is no disagreement, without, heaven forbid, mixing in your personal judgment. Second, how is it that on the one hand you are amazed by the “disappearance” (even though I explained above that this is really not a serious way to start a discussion that has already happened countless times online, and also that I don’t remember seeing technical discussions like this on other topics here on the site), and on the other hand those who do show up you accuse of projections (even though in my view, when there are claims, it doesn’t matter whether they stem from projection or not, of course).
The conclusion from the above is that you use “projection” only to try to weaken your opponents’ words and explain how it is possible that they were so mistaken about such simple matters and don’t agree with your opinions, and for this you explain that they are biased and projecting and all kinds of psychic analyses (and now it’s your turn to say that I am projecting onto you my private fear that I am the one who is mistaken about simple things and biased, etc.). I, by the way, in return for the projection theory, diagnose you as a mediocre amateur nonentity immersed head and shoulders in propaganda, and that explains very nicely to me (R-squared of 1, who could have dreamed and screamed) everything you tend to scribble here on matters connected to this. With such a successful theory maybe it can be published somewhere as a paper.

Giyora, I didn’t think the Haredi public takes the entire state budget. It obviously still takes part of the budget (many times through schemes that are not officially directed to the Haredi public but in practice they are almost the only ones benefiting from those schemes). And obviously not all of it. Is that the big revelation here? In any case, I still see something problematic in the fact that the public makes an ideal out of taking money from the state in exchange for learning. If they only want to learn and not work, fine by me. (Though I think Maimonides is absolutely right here when he said that this creates a desecration of God’s name, and if you disagree, go out and see.) But taking money from the state when the state is not even interested in there being yeshivot — that’s already not okay. For the state is not interested in Torah schools and yeshivot. Therefore, people interested in that should fund it. It is really bizarre that the state funds yeshivot.

P.S. Rabbi Zamir Cohen used demagoguery here, as though only the Haredim keep Torah and commandments.

Tam,

You (who are apparently Haredi) are exactly the reason I speak of separation from the Haredim. You obstinately refuse to understand and spin me around with lies. You’re not really trying to understand my claims; rather, you’re propagandizing at me again. You are exactly the example of the Haredi deception I’m talking about, which causes me not to want to be connected to them or deal with them. The hiding of the face. And that is probably why Rabbi Michi avoids communicating with you. Therefore in the future, if I don’t answer you, it won’t be because I’ll have nothing to answer, but because I’ll have no desire to do so, because it is futile. You don’t want to hear. Maybe for you this is a game you enjoy, or you’re trying, like all Haredim, to get something out of me (part of the general propaganda). In that case I won’t answer a fool according to his folly.

Immanuel, I attached a link showing that over forty percent lied to the system and violated isolation. The article shows the face of the typical Israeli person; the Haredim are not even mentioned there.
Whether I am Haredi or not is not the subject. If you had an answer to the article without descending to personal attacks and leaning on weak ad hominem, you would do so proudly. You chose to go into regions of personal demagoguery and attack. That is apparently your personality. It must be said you proved it in almost all your comments here. You descended into dark regions just in order to justify your musings about separation from the Haredim, all because in your mind you understood why a Haredi does what he does, and you generalized all Haredim. The Sages already said: a person speaks only from the thoughts of his heart.
Immanuel, there is no need for you to answer, especially if you intend to continue your violent and crude discourse. If nevertheless you have explanations for the situation in which almost half of those in isolation violated it and confirmed coronavirus patients lied to the investigation array even though they are not Haredi, we’ll all be glad to hear.

In the meantime, have a lovely rest of the day, everyone,
Tam.

And to you, Yishai, we’re talking here about a budget that is less than what Yad Sarah alone saves the state, as stated in Rabbi Zamir Cohen’s words — about 1.2 billion — so that just from this one organization alone, after offsetting, the Haredim still remain in the negative.

Just as the state funds culture and the other things Rabbi Zamir Cohen listed, so too it can fund Jewish culture and throw a few shekels to yeshiva boys. Perhaps you are not aware, but the religion stipends of a yeshiva student are around two hundred and something, plus or minus. Barely enough to buy sliced bread with it, while all of us live off the top third decile plus the citizens of the United States without shame.

By the way, regarding the demagoguery with which you accused Rabbi Zamir Cohen about the Haredim keeping Torah and commandments — indeed there are others who keep Torah and commandments, but the Haredim have taken it as a way of life, in the sense of “He looked into the Torah and created the world,” and do not live life and then deal with halakhic problems, unlike the way Rabbi Michi relates to Judaism as if there is nothing in it but Jewish law, and even that is subject to shortcuts according to his fevered mind.

A clear economic damage that the Haredim cause is the time devoted to endless arguments about their contribution or non-contribution to the economy. After all, during the time we invest in checking the Haredim’s contribution or non-contribution to the economy, we could have developed some breakthrough invention that would significantly increase GDP. 🙂

With blessings,
Zuzman Geldmacher

How stupid is everything? Avigdor Liberman — the one who called on the public not to obey the coronavirus guidelines and laws — is distributing a plan to fight coronavirus.
And who is the “expert” heading the plan? Right, Leonid Eidelman, the man who not long ago explained to the people of Israel that the measures Israel took against coronavirus were a conspiracy by Netanyahu and Litzman to lower voter turnout in the elections.

Now, I try very hard not to relate to nobodies like Liberman. Hardly any people with a functioning lobe remain who haven’t yet understood that he is a shameless charlatan. But there is something broader here: a culture of zero accountability.

In Israel 2020, journalists, politicians, and public figures have declared war on any culture of responsibility. Responsibility has become an empty concept. Hollow. From Mandelblit through Gila Gamliel to Esther Hayut. No matter how big the fiasco, the main thing is to continue as usual. The corona crisis has brought this to new heights. Every day public figures mess up (at varying levels, from negligence to malice) and go on as though nothing happened. At most, in their great generosity, they volunteer to pay the fine. More than that, it is all so shameless that figures who sat in prime time and wrongly and negligently misled the public from their own positioning are not embarrassed afterward — without apology, reservation, or serious conclusions — to jump up and offer “plans” that will finally save Israel from coronavirus. Was there something? Come on, nonsense, no big deal. No one remembers anything. Everything is stupid and everything will smooth itself out.

Links and sources —
1. Eidelman on the war against coronavirus as an election plot of Netanyahu and Litzman — https://www.mako.co.il/news-israel-elections/2020/Article-ec8190cab037071027.htm
2. Liberman announces his miracle plan for fighting coronavirus — https://twitter.com/AvigdorLiberman/status/1316004456111255553

Credit Adam Gold?

https://www.israelhayom.co.il/interactive/amp/article/811435

Wow, a discussion like this — straight to the favorites bookmark.
Rabbi Michi — knock knock! Where are you?

Rabbi Zamir Cohen’s claims are both demagogic and incorrect. Most workers — including the Haredim who work — do not reach the relevant tax brackets of direct income tax. Most of the direct tax is paid by those who are not Haredi. So this nonsense as though the problem lies only in the minority of Haredim who don’t work simply doesn’t fly. The problem lies in the low level of technological education, the lack of English, and the lack of skills for modern work, which leave the Haredim at a low level of productivity and accordingly also a low level of income.

In addition, the argument about indirect tax also doesn’t hold water. The income of most Haredi families is very low (8,000–20,000 NIS), and accordingly the indirect tax they pay is relatively low compared to the rest of the population. Most indirect tax is paid by non-Haredim (many of whom he sweeps into the Haredim with a wave of his hand) who earn more and therefore also consume more. The same mistake applies to apartments. Most Haredim buy cheaper apartments, and therefore most real-estate tax comes mainly from secular people.

Finally, there is the ignoring of the endless subsidies every Haredi family enjoys. Here is a calculation showing that they amount to at least 17,000 shekels per month:

תגובות חרדיות במפנה הקורונה (טור 305)

As for the argument about the charity organizations, it seems to me Immanuel answered well — kindness for themselves they do.

And still, apparently — doesn’t Haredi economic consumption drive the economy?
This argument suffers from the same fallacy as the broken window parable (https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%9C_%D7%94%D7%97%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%9F_%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%91%D7%95%D7%A8);
it ignores the alternative cost of that consumption. If Haredi society were not subsidized the way it is today, the money now transferred coercively would be saved and invested in improving the face of the Israeli economy. The number of work hours would fall, and people could spend more time at home, and so on.

In the end, all of Rabbi Zamir Cohen’s arguments are nonsense, and they merely illustrate Immanuel’s claims.

With God’s help, 4 Cheshvan 5781

The basic assumption of the discussion (which both Prof. Moav and Rabbi Zamir Cohen essentially accept) is that whoever pays more taxes contributes more to the state’s economy.

And that is not correct. On the contrary, a politician or senior academic pays a high tax by which he partially returns the huge salary he gets from the public purse, without contributing anything to the state’s economy.

By contrast, a production worker earning a low wage in a factory that exports abroad brings great economic benefit, since his low wage lowers production inputs and thereby increases profitability.

So, for example, a Haredi high-tech worker earning a low salary relative to her secular colleagues contributes much more to the state’s economy than professors of nonsense studies, who take huge salaries from the state purse and pay the state back by slandering it and encouraging its boycott.

In short: the high tax a person pays is not what constitutes contribution to the economy, but his contribution through his labor to production and profitability.

With blessings,
S. Z.

By the way, there are whole branches of the economy that exist only thanks to the need of the religious public for strictly kosher food. For example, the wine, meat, and dairy sectors, which create demand for agriculture and production plants in the country that can be under strict supervision, would long since have been wiped out by inability to compete with cheap foreign goods.

It seems it’s not easy to find contradictions and bluffs in Michael Abraham. But someone who digs a little can find contradictions like no other. For example, his attitude toward Haredim, Hardalim, and conservative rabbis is condescending and dismissive, with zero willingness to examine what they say. In contrast, his attitude toward Conservatives and Reform (and especially Reform women rabbis) is gentle and considerate. He will invest all his talents in explaining and clarifying the nonsense they spread, and won’t go after them.
In this way, his agenda on various issues leads him not to discuss contradictions or problems in his own view. I brought one small example here; I’m sure there are dozens more.

To S. Z.,

You’re missing the point. The problem with the Haredim is their contempt for the state and their seeing the rest of the public as another people and themselves as a separate people (except for the Chabadniks in an unclear way. But the Sephardim too, as long as they choose their Haredi identity, will in the end in the future also see us as another people, even though that is not their basic nature and also not the present situation — as our eyes see, they actually cooperate with the state and part of the Zionist Congress). They are allowed, and I even understand them. The problem is that this creates for them, subconsciously, legitimacy to deceive the rest of the public (the evil lord. His existence is one of the principles of Haredi faith: “I believe with complete faith in the existence of a lord under whom I sit and whom one must outsmart and scheme…” Even in Antarctica they would try to deceive the penguins. Or one another — each faction the other). Who cares about all these calculations? For in the end it is almost certain that the calculations will be to our detriment.

Meanwhile this disease of Haredi-ism is spreading in the Religious Zionist public (Hardali-ism — though they have not yet reached this separation from the people. But wait a little; they are already enlisting in the IDF less and less), and also in you with your tireless propaganda. This is not speaking in defense, S. Z. It is simply folly and stupidity. If you are incapable of saying something bad about someone, there is no value in the good things you write about them.

Correction, first line:

“You’re missing the point. The problem with the Haredim is their contempt for the state, etc….”

Let’s phrase it this way:

Most Haredim, unconsciously, see the non-Haredi public as oxen and donkeys who are supposed to do their labor. (Certainly consciously among their leaders, on the basis of various Talmudic passages and sources — that is their way of thinking. And among the rest of the public it comes from upbringing without direct instruction from the leaders and slips out now and then like a child’s chatter in the marketplace, which comes either from his father or his mother.) In any case, exploitation of an ox and a donkey isn’t a thing. That’s what it is for. Now the donkey or ox develop over time and no longer want to be oxen and donkeys (even if they still are). Part of that development is precisely becoming free of them, because that supposed “person” (for in practice they are even more oxen and donkeys than we are) wants us to remain beastly so that he can go on enslaving us. Even all your attempts at persuasion are strange. If the situation is such that the Haredim contribute to the economy exactly like we do, why do they care so much not to disconnect from us or move to another state? Why all these obsessive attempts to convince us of their necessity? Why the howls and whining when they’re not in the government? On the contrary, we should be chasing after them.

Correction in the middle of the paragraph: “Part of that development is precisely becoming free of them.”

Not long ago Michi wrote:

“My policy is that as long as these non-substantive expressions are directed toward me (and as stated, toward Gorlin there is some substance in them, even if not in this question), I do not delete them. Expressions toward others, publics or individuals, that contain no substantive content or are too offensive, are deleted. This is because freedom of speech is indeed important to me.”

If someone asks how it is that here Michi did not intervene when Immanuel poured out his anger and generalized and lashed with his tongue at an entire sector without any substantive reference to the actual question under discussion here,
the answer must be that a clause is missing, and this is how it should read:

As long as it’s against the religious, the more the merrier!

I’m a bit puzzled by the people here. You do know that Rabbi Michi studied in a Haredi yeshiva for many years, right?
And then also sent his children to Haredi education, right?
So he has criticism of the Haredi outlook. That does not diminish his appreciation for that public.
No need to be offended by everything.

According to his own words, Michi was Modern Orthodox, secular, Haredi, (Hardali?), and today defines himself as closest in his views to the Conservatives — not exactly the most consistent type there is.

I assume the next stage is Reform Judaism (already now he has great sympathy for Reform women rabbis, devoting to them and to their nonsense quite a few columns). My feeling is that at the end of the road, even if he won’t be an atheist, he will most likely define himself as an agnostic, and argue that it is not possible to prove in a definitive and reasonable way the existence of God.
As strange as that may sound (after all, he wrote whole books in favor of belief in God and in Torah), whoever looks at his history and the upheavals in his opinions and outlooks will find that entirely plausible. Time will tell.

To Freedom,

Although I don’t really care whether Rabbi Michi deletes my words (it’s not important to me that “my voice be heard.” That’s empty sociology. What matters to me is that the things be placed on the table and brought to the readers’ awareness and that they discuss the issue themselves. In my opinion this issue has important implications for our future in the state).

I am entirely substantive. I argue that the basic premise underlying the question asked here is flawed from the outset. Namely, that in the current state of affairs, given the prevailing spirit in Haredi society, the Israeli public will be economically harmed by remaining connected to the Haredi public. And I explained my words with many arguments as to why this is so (maybe I’m wrong, but I did not reach these conclusions lightly). I think that is very substantive.

Hello, and sorry for intervening. I decided to check the data a bit instead of brawling here from morning till night without reaching an answer on the actual issue: are the Haredim an economic burden on the state, and do they take more than others from the public purse? I saw Y.D.’s response; I’ll address it (the only one, by the way, that actually addressed the data), but in my view he too runs away from the main point, and Gabriel’s linked data also need checking.
First, regarding what Rabbi Zamir said — that there is direct tax and indirect tax, and it’s roughly fifty-fifty.
1. Y.D. claimed that direct tax, mainly income tax — here output per capita and certainly per household is far lower, because there is no representation in the upper deciles, and they barely work.
Can you force people to work and bring in high salaries? after all most of the nation, meaning the lower seven deciles, do not bear the burden of the public purse, and in fact they live at the expense of the upper deciles. A penny is the same as a hundred: what difference does it make if the upper deciles, for argument’s sake, fund one person by this many percent and another by more percent? In the end, everyone is taking from the purse.
2. Indirect tax, mainly VAT — here too Haredim give less, because they live more cheaply. The figure is that VAT paid per Haredi person in Bnei Brak is 2,000 NIS, while per person in Tel Aviv it is 5,000 NIS. So what? Are the people of Tiberias and Beersheba and the rest of the periphery, and in fact all the workers in the economy who earn minimum wage and below, considered robbers of the purse? You can’t force me to buy. As long as on what I do buy I pay like you do, we’re fine. Maybe money shouldn’t be allowed to be spent abroad either? What kind of absurd claims are these?!
3. Real-estate taxes contribute 3% of all taxes. Rabbi Zamir brought that about seventy percent of Haredi society are homeowners. The culture of buying apartments in that public is almost one of the Ten Commandments. Haredi areas are expensive because of demand specific to a population suited to their lifestyle. Here too, the secular couple buying an apartment in the periphery in the Krayot or the Religious Zionist in some settlement does not pay tax on it so long as it is under one and a half million.
It may be that if we calculate per parent-couple household, Haredim pay more.
From the Ministry of Finance website, on reports of state revenues — here are charts and explanations of the breakdown of state revenues in 2018.
State revenues in 2018 were 280 billion NIS.
50% of state revenues, 139 billion NIS, came from taxes on consumption — indirect tax,
and 50% of state revenues, 140 billion NIS, came from taxes on income — direct tax.
And the breakdown (main and significant sums):
Indirect tax:
• VAT — 94.2 billion NIS
• Customs — 3 billion NIS
• Purchase tax (mainly vehicles) — 18 billion NIS
• Fuel tax — 17.8 billion NIS
• Fees (mainly vehicle-related) — 6.7 billion NIS
• Tobacco tax — 0.7 billion NIS
Direct tax:
• Income tax on salaried workers — 44.2 billion NIS
• Corporate tax — 36 billion NIS
• Income tax on the self-employed — 15.3 billion NIS
• Senior company executives — 11.2 billion NIS
• Capital gains (stock exchange, dividends) — 9.4 billion NIS
• Taxes on institutions (financial institutions, employers, and nonprofits) — 14.5 billion NIS
• Real-estate taxes (purchase tax and capital gains tax) — 8.7 billion NIS
As stated, the main revenues are from the top third of the upper decile; income from salaried workers is about 44 billion, and the gap in Haredi society between general society among workers and those who do not work stands at only about 17%. If we are a country of about 5.9 million eligible voters, and about 500,000 Haredim — which is less than ten percent of those who could enter the labor market — and the gap between them and others is in total only about 17%, then what is all the crying and wailing about?
A Haredi person pays indirect taxes, at least like a secular person, and even more.
1. The Haredim are the largest consumers of public transportation, and as S. Z. already wrote, that has consequences for transportation and more. How much money is invested in trying to move the state toward a Hong Kong-style culture where you can get around by public transport without polluting and clogging the country..
2. What remains is mainly VAT and customs (and tobacco taxes, to a limited extent from the secular public) — only 35% of state revenues.
3. The Haredim have large families, and therefore they are larger consumers, and so the VAT they pay is higher. Moshe Gafni said in May 2010: “The Haredi public pays the indirect taxes — VAT, purchase tax, etc. Through these taxes the Haredim are the ones funding the secular people, because the Haredi public spends more than the secular public on these taxes.” Well then, the scale of VAT payments can be checked by a simple examination of household consumption expenditures. According to a Taub Center study, the consumption expenditure of a non-Haredi Jewish household stands at 14,501 shekels, compared to 11,807 shekels in a Haredi household — a difference of 23%. So true, the VAT they pay is also lower, but relative to income it is not proportional, if salary gaps are over twofold!! (I did not address spending per person, since Haredi families are significantly larger.)
4. Let’s go a bit deeper into the data — the breakdown of consumption expenditures. According to the above study, even though by the data there is no branch in which a Haredi household spends more than a secular household, despite having twice as many children and more. The most significant differences are in housing and transportation. But again, what matters here is the relation between income and expenses, which among the Haredim is higher. And as stated, just as you cannot demand that a cashier work in high-tech, so you cannot make this complaint against a Haredi person.
5. Another interesting figure: according to the above study, the percentage of housing payments out of total consumption expenditures is 27% for Haredim, as opposed to 23% for non-Haredi Jews. Of course this sum too should be added to the VAT payments made by the Haredim, on purchase tax, since according to Rabbi Zamir’s data about half the price of the apartment goes to the state. True, there is no VAT on mortgage/rent payments themselves, but one Haredi apartment in Jerusalem’s outskirts at 1.8 million is enough that all his life he won’t need to give beyond the 900,000 they squeezed from him, after he already paid direct tax on that too.
The Haredi public receives less per person, as stated.
The prison service and culture budgets are enormous relative to the yeshiva budget, though certainly far smaller than other budgets.
The average apartment, correct to the start of 2013, is 1.13 million — higher than new apartment prices in Elad, Modi’in Illit, and Beitar.
In Jerusalem the average price is 1.65, but the price in Haredi neighborhoods is more similar to that in Bnei Brak, so it is around the average.
The localities where the average is especially high are Tel Aviv, Ra’anana, Ramat HaSharon and the like, where there is almost no Haredi public, but also in Beersheba, Eilat, the Krayot, Tiberias and the rest of the periphery, these are not Haredi strongholds. Therefore, on average across all apartments purchased in the Haredi public, mainly in Jerusalem and Bnei Brak, their cost (per household, and all the more per person) is higher.
In addition, it should be remembered that the rate of real-estate taxes is not uniform. On apartments up to 1.5 million NIS, no purchase tax is paid at all, as I already mentioned.
Even if someone still doesn’t like this or that budget distributed to the Haredim, in practice this is what the state decided. You can’t accuse the Haredim for that, even if we assume they scheme the situation.
The practical difference is in the question whether to change this situation. If it’s only a game within the 5% and so on, while Rabbi Zamir’s main claim is that all of us in total pay only 5% direct tax, it doesn’t seem worth trying to change it at all. Immanuel’s gloomy forecasts are nothing more than hatred of Haredim, as he already took the trouble to tell us — that and nothing more!
Even if this amounts to another town the state could have built, another development the state could have developed. Let’s say it’s even worth a few good millions… still there is no end to it. In parallel, one could cut plenty of budgets that do not contribute to keeping the economy flowing, especially since, as stated, the Haredim save the state through the organizations beyond what they receive.
Instead of whining — not in Covid times, of course — there are plenty of less important things that could have been cut from the budget and built here another hospital and a half, if not a few pampering interchanges with some light rail, just like that, every year…
So the question is whether to change this situation in which the state gives money to kollel men; whether to change subsidies for kindergartens and daycare, etc. For whoever supports all of us here — as I showed, it is clear the rich give more, and that is how the social structure is built. There is logic in it too, and the state also helped the rich with its money. How did they travel to meetings? (Roads the state built.) How did they get protection and security in life? The state helped them too, of course, with loans and other benefits. In the end, the rich need us poor people, and so society also needs the Haredim, just as it needs the periphery and the poor.
Maybe it would make sense to have a uniform tax for everyone — not financially-economically, I’m not an economist, and probably such a situation isn’t really possible in our reality as a state, and perhaps nowhere else on the globe. The more money you have, the more you pay — that’s just how it is. (I’m in favor of a flat tax — everyone pays 20%, not that every additional amount pushes you up a bracket.) The social structure is meant to enable a functioning society. If society wants to have among it people devoted to heaven (Torah, philosophy — every society and its desires), great; that is our Jewish understanding. If someone acts against society, he is problematic because he destroys the structure. Therefore the cries about the Haredim, etc., have no real practical difference. The Haredim exploit the law. And if that frustrates you, Immanuel, there are ways to deal with it…
By the way, Michi actually has a nice example of this. Once he came to a conference in some kibbutz about the Rabbinate or something, and they started shouting at him about the Rabbinate, etc. He acted wisely and said to them: “Shameless people, I accuse you! After all, who elects the rabbis every time? The secular people! There are elections, and mayors choose, and Knesset members, etc. You choose them. I say not to choose them. I say abolish the institution. So why are you accusing me?” Therefore the anti-Semitic discussion is unnecessary, and there isn’t much practical difference in this discussion at all. In practice, this is what society wants, and the question is whether someone is rebelling against society or not.
The main thing is that all of us are enjoying ourselves at Michi’s site’s expense, even though it seems this subject annoys him…

https://m.calcalist.co.il/Article.aspx?guid=3864075

A few more comments in the field of “the Haredim and the economy”

A. The upper deciles, in which there are also Haredim, do indeed pay a lot of direct taxes, but as I mentioned above, in many cases their incomes come from the public purse without any contribution of theirs to the state economy.

To this one should add that a significant part of the expenditures of the wealthy do not strengthen the Israeli economy. The large sums they spend on importing cars and luxury products and on vacations abroad involve strengthening economies abroad and the flight of foreign currency from the Israeli economy.

By contrast, the lower deciles, including most Haredim, usually consume simpler locally made products, use public transport, and go abroad very little. On the other hand, the kollels recruit funds to a large extent from abroad, thereby increasing the foreign currency flowing into the Israeli economy.

B. The ideal of a “society of learners” exists mainly in the Lithuanian stream. Among Hasidim and Sephardim it is common that after several years in yeshiva and kollel, the man goes out to work and support his home. Even in sectors in which there are more kollel students, this is balanced by their wives, who go out more to work outside. Thus, in any case, there is a very large portion of workers also in the Haredi sectors.

***

All this I wrote within the framework of the discussion: which sector contributes more to the state economy. But one must ask: does man and the nation live by bread alone? Is a person’s value measured only by the money he brings? Is contribution to the development of the eternal spiritual values of the Jewish people and to the Jewish character of the “State of the Jews” not of decisive importance?

With blessings,
S. Z.

How much do the settlers cost us?
Between one and two and a half billion — there are no exact data. Depends whom you ask..
Does it contribute? Or does it cause boycotts against us around the world and terrorism? Again, depends whom you ask..
How much do youth movements (the filth) like Bnei Akiva and the other movements, mainly in the Religious Zionist public, cost us — how many tens of millions from the education budget? Who has an interest in that? Why are all of us to blame?
The heders and Torah schools are not budgeted and are not within the compulsory-education law, unlike Beit Yaakov schools, which are budgeted, up to the seminaries, which are not budgeted because they do not study within the framework of matriculation exams — unlike the state schools, the ulpanot, the yeshiva high schools, and the preparatory academies.

The birthrate among the Haredim exceeds the birthrate in the religious public by about a child and a half on average.

So to calculate education costs or daycare subsidies and the rest of this nonsense according to budget per Haredi head is nonsense. Most of the inflated education budget does not reach the Haredim. The Haredim are budgeted minimally in this area.

So just as the Haredi does not care about the settlements, the youth movements, and additional educational promotion, and it’s okay that the state funds it because as a society it contains all kinds of shades and must respect them, so the meager funding that goes to the world of yeshivot, which is half of the settlements, should not bother anyone, including the angry Immanuel.

Dani Abu,
An extra 1,000–2,000 NIS that Haredim pay each month in tax on the apartment does not change the deficit structure of Haredi society. The Haredim spend more than they bring in, and other people cover the gap.
The problem is broader than Haredi society and is connected to the welfare state, but the Haredim intensify the problem by not teaching their children the core curriculum and by not serving in the army. And the dynamics of this process will turn Israel into a Third World state, as is happening in Lebanon today.
That is what the discussion is about, not all the Haredi whining. Immanuel fantasizes about separating. In my opinion that is not feasible. In my opinion we should adopt the Brazilian model according to which there are no social benefits for Haredim if the children do not meet the core-curriculum tests.

Why isn’t separation feasible (economically and in terms of internal cantonal policy)? It seems more feasible to me than the “Brazilian model,” because you need something that is hard to reverse by a new federal government. And it’s also easy to play emotionally against tying social benefits to the benefit (past or future) conferred by the benefactors. One united democracy for all the groups in the country seems very bad to me in the long term. Billions that would go to the Arabs in exchange for their support of domestic policy would help the economy (improved infrastructure and education and crime suppression => increased productivity), exactly the opposite of the current natural partners. There is enormous economic potential if the Haredim, as a significant group, decide to immigrate economically into the State of Israel (a certain resemblance to the excellent immigration from the Soviet Union), but I’m too pessimistic to think there’s a chance that this potential will be realized enough before it becomes too heavy.

Y.D. and Full Breadth,

I don’t understand your dynamic. After all, you admit that society here is built on tycoons, more or less. Society is diverse: there are settlements, there is a periphery, there is welfare, there are Arabs, and there are Haredim. So long as people do not act against the Israeli interest as ideology, but rather out of conflict with their values, that is okay. I don’t think the Haredim are against work, but in the present situation it comes at the expense of their values. Just as the pacifist does not enlist, so they too do not enlist, and that is okay. Talk of separation is nothing but patronizing pride, whereas the rich too might be happy to separate from many poor people, and about half the society in the country would like to separate from the settlers.

Absolutely not built on tycoons. Even the taxes the tycoons pay are a product of the productivity of others, and if so-and-so weren’t working for the benefit of tycoon X, he’d be working for the benefit of tycoon Y, and overall output would be similar. Economically, what matters is productivity. But I don’t intend to discuss here the economic gap between a situation in which the Haredim work at rates and productivity appropriate to their abilities and the current situation. That technical discussion I’ve already participated in too many times in various places, and it requires from me resources of time, energy, and nerves that I have no desire to invest, and anyone interested should go learn. I’m here to exchange chatter with people who have already reached economic conclusions similar to mine, about what it is reasonable to do next. Given that explaining things to people or persuading them is futile, one has to think actively about what to do when certain people disagree with you and you won’t persuade them, and it’s also no longer very likely that I’ll be persuaded either. The values of others don’t interest me, and I measure everything first and foremost on economic scales (and one of the things those scales measure is the interests and desires of those who produce more than they receive). The settlers don’t interest me either, but even if in your opinion they damage Israel’s security and international standing (and in my opinion too, since I would gladly separate at almost any price from the failed Palestinian group with whom I have no desire for any contact — but I do think the settlements have an advantage as a local/international bargaining chip in future withdrawals or agreements), they and their children are still reasonably productive, and the problem is not chronic. In any case, I take pains to fence myself off against problems in possible futures that may come, and I believe that in any scenario here I will find a way to manage sufficiently well here or elsewhere. And for others I’m not ideological enough to fight. Therefore nothing is especially urgent for me practically speaking. At most I’ll find solutions for myself and my family, and although I’ll pay prices, it’s not such a big deal. And with that I’ll put an end to speaking — and let there be peace and blessing and tranquility in your palaces.

Full Breadth, what’s your opinion of the periphery and the Negev?

To Tam — greetings,

In the economic calculations they only count “the full breadth of the land,” not the length, and Bnei Brak interferes with the wholeness of economic efficiency between the sea and the Jordan, and therefore its inhabitants fulfill “those who go out all year with shoe and mouth” — “and it does not profit the king to let them remain” 🙂

And we have already learned from the generation of the Tower of Babel that the value of the brick that contributes greatly to the economy is high.

With blessings,
Arpachshad

S. Z., don’t you have some little Torah insight for Shabbat on the portion of Noah? Let go of the Tower of Babel despite its timeliness.

Tam. In my opinion, all the people who make an effort and want to increase GDP (or develop things desired by those who increase GDP) are an opportunity for partnership. And I will gladly join them in democracy and in a welfare state even if at the moment I happen to be on the contributing side and not the receiving side. Obviously, groups more successful than I am can decide to wave me away too. And where there is mutual desire, I don’t think it will be so hard to create a prosperous first-world state in the little canton of God that will be here. Technical problems require technocratic experts, hopefully they’ll find a successful path. And if not, then too bad, that’s what there is.

Just as the groups better than you, in your view, accept you, it would have been fitting for you to accept others too, even if you do not see their direct contribution to GDP.

First of all, it’s not clear to me that there are groups better than me. If I divide the annual budget by my annual taxes, I’m in a large surplus. And I don’t get any discounts, exemptions, grants, and the like. Besides, I explained that I don’t have a problem with a welfare state; I’m not a capitalist (that is, I am, de facto in terms of outcomes, but in spirit I’m a socialist). With the Haredim there is a special issue of principles. I do not subscribe to the principles of others. Therefore I think the best way (for me) is to shake hands and part as alienated friends. The rest will be managed through trade. I’ll presumably buy some books put out by Haredi rabbis. By the way, something similar works for me regarding immigrants from Africa. It is common (in certain circles) to express support for the staying of “regime opponents” and opposition to the staying of “labor migrants.” I think exactly the opposite. Regime opponents are people of principles — let them go develop their principles in Germany or the United States or elsewhere. Labor migrants, by contrast, are people who took a risk and made an effort to reach a country that is not all that welcoming, in order to improve their standard of living. That is a language I am a native speaker of, and to them I say welcome to the club. In my estimation that is the kind of person who is more GDP-generating than the average here, and I receive him with open arms. In the first generation they’ll indeed be hewers of wood and drawers of water, but in the second or third generation I think they’ll be electronics engineers and establish and run companies (typical of second- and third-generation immigrants). Apparently the average readers here are idealistic people trying to keep polishing their worldview and are busy with principles. I look at everything first of all through the hole of the penny, and I have no sentimental attachment of any kind to anyone whose name I don’t know.

With God’s help, 8 Cheshvan 5781

To Tam — greetings,

The connection to the portion of Noah is explained in the portion. Noah, in his blessing to his sons, assigns roles to them: the expansion of the world Noah gives to Japheth, saying, “May God enlarge Japheth,” and this can be economic expansion or expansion of mind. By contrast, to Shem is assigned the role of creating the connection with God, as it is written: “And He shall dwell in the tents of Shem.”

Japheth will care for “GDP” — gross domestic product — while Shem will care for “national spiritual product,” and the two together complement one another.

Therefore there is no place at all to measure those engaged in Torah by their economic contribution. They are required to cultivate the spiritual contribution, as it says in Isaiah: “But to this one I will look: to the poor and broken-spirited one who trembles at My word.”

With blessings,
Arpachshatz

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