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Q&A: Modesty on Vacation in the Presence of Non-Jews

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This is an English translation (via GPT-5.4). Read the original Hebrew version.

Modesty on Vacation in the Presence of Non-Jews

Question

Hello Rabbi. Sorry for the question.
We are three friends on vacation at a beach in the Greek islands. There are only non-Jews around us. Is it permitted for us to be on the beach in bikini swimsuits, since this does not involve causing someone to stumble through "do not place a stumbling block"?

Answer

In my opinion it is forbidden for several reasons:

  1. Modesty is not only about not causing others to stumble. First and foremost, it is for your own sake.
  2. You yourselves can stumble, not only them. After all, if they stumble because of this, the concern is that it will be with you.
  3. Of course, "do not place a stumbling block" also applies in relation to a non-Jew (this is explicit in the Talmud in Avodah Zarah).
  4. A non-Jew is commanded regarding forbidden sexual relations, and straightforwardly this also includes the prohibitions of physical closeness connected to them.

Discussion on Answer

Yerachmiel (2021-07-28)

I am not arguing that it is forbidden, but is there really "do not place a stumbling block" in this case, when this is a case of "one side of the river," since the prohibited thing is available to the non-Jew in any event?

Michi (2021-07-28)

First, there is also a rabbinic prohibition in a case of "one side of the river." Second, the prohibition is not available to him in every way regardless. Stimulation from one woman is not a substitute for another.

Yerachmiel (2021-07-28)

I am not sure there is such a rabbinic prohibition toward a non-Jew. In any case, regarding your second point, I saw that this seems implied by Tosafot on Avodah Zarah 14b, s.v. "Makom."

Prof. Niels (Naftali) Bohr (2021-07-29)

Michi,
regarding item 1 of your first response, "Modesty is not only about not causing others to stumble. First and foremost, it is for your own sake"—after all, Nadav's monumental article, "Are There Laws of Modesty?," is familiar and well known to you. If the entire area depends on psychology and social norms, as has been published, then why, at the beach, where the prevailing social norm for women is to wear a bikini, would wearing the clothing customary in that society in that place and situation be considered immodest?

Schrödinger (2021-07-29)

See the monumental entry here: https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%94%D7%92%D7%96%D7%9E%D7%94

Nagor Kashot (2021-07-29)

In my humble opinion, there is a difference between a situation that society defines as modest and a situation in which it is permitted to be immodest. One would have to be very dishonest to say that a Western women's swimsuit does not emphasize areas that are usually covered, and it is simple and obvious that this raises far more improper thoughts in every healthy human male. Feel free to watch an average Hollywood movie to see how male characters relate to the "modesty" of the beach (and not only there).

Prof. Niels (Naftali) Bohr (2021-07-29)

Schrödinger,
your nonsense this time managed to surpass even your other nonsense. More power to you for babbling.

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