Q&A: Modesty, and Streams in Judaism
Modesty, and Streams in Judaism
Question
I have several questions, and I’d be glad if the Rabbi would answer them at length and not just briefly.
Modesty:
What is the definition of modesty? And how should a person conduct his life in terms of modesty? Because I’ll tell you what I mean: if a person completely separates himself from women (in terms of seeing them, not necessarily relationships. I do think it’s not good for a man to have a close relationship with other women besides his family; if the Rabbi thinks otherwise, I’d be glad if he clarified that) as happens in most of the Haredi world, then a situation comes out where if I (Religious Zionist) and he walk down the street and see a woman in a tank top / short-sleeved shirt / pants / nothing too revealing for me, but definitely yes for him,
then not only will it be hard for him not to think about her and not to look at her, but her appearance will “turn him on” much more than it would me.
Could it be that this is because I’ve become “worn down”? So my question is whether that wearing-down is correct and desirable and is the ideal, or whether one should make fences and safeguards?
I’d be glad if the Rabbi would clarify for me, based on what he knows, what he knows about the dispute between Kav and Gush, and how the Rabbi defines himself and why.
Answer
You’re expecting entire essays from me in response to this question. That’s not realistic. I’ll answer briefly. Modesty is determined by common sense and the accepted norms in a reasonable society. I know that’s fairly vague, but that is the nature of these Jewish laws. One should not stray from the middle path, neither toward Haredi extremity nor toward excessive liberalism.
I don’t define myself in terms of groups, and I don’t see much value in those definitions. At most, it can be worthwhile to define groups in order to sharpen types of arguments (which will be done in the upcoming columns).
Discussion on Answer
I join the request
I’ve made a note of it. 🙂
Regarding the subject, I wanted to know what a couple is permitted or forbidden to display publicly. Is there a problem with walking hand in hand? Is there a problem with kissing your partner in the street?
I don’t think there is any prohibition, but there are norms of modesty that it is proper to take into account. Hand in hand doesn’t seem problematic to me, but a kiss is a more intimate matter. Everything depends on the time and place.
I’ve just uploaded a post about modesty (Column 499): https://mikyab.net/posts/77388
Hello Rabbi,
You wrote that “modesty is determined by common sense and the accepted norms in a reasonable society.” What happens in a society that is not reasonable in your view, such as Haredi society? Someone who lives in Bnei Brak and wears loose pants, or walks hand in hand with her husband, attracts a lot of attention. So should one act according to what is reasonable at that time, or according to the place?
Bnei Brak is not a bubble, and people who are not from Bnei Brak also enter it, and everyone there understands and tolerates that (within reasonable limits). Again, there is common sense.
“Bnei Brak is not a bubble, and people who are not from Bnei Brak also enter it, and everyone there understands and tolerates that (within reasonable limits). Again, there is common sense.”
It’s true that there is common sense, but that is certainly not accepted in Bnei Brak at all.
According to that, should it be forbidden?
You’re expecting a yes-or-no answer. On these topics there is no yes or no. If it is not accepted there, then it is proper not to do it there.
I understood what the Rabbi is saying. Could the Rabbi, in one of his upcoming columns, deal in depth with the issue of modesty? About “wearing-down,” who defines the criteria for modesty, etc., because this is a very deep topic, which as the Rabbi said is usually rather vague.
Thank you very much