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Q&A: Dualism and a Spiritual Substance

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This is an English translation (via GPT-5.4). Read the original Hebrew version.

Dualism and a Spiritual Substance

Question

Hello and blessings!
With your permission, two questions:
1. In the series on Platonism (chapter 5) you argued that properties are not objects in the world; that is, the speed of my car is not an object just as my sadness is not an object. If so, then in what sense are my mental states spiritual? (To the best of my knowledge you are a dualist, and so am I.) The property of waterโ€™s liquidity is also a property and not an object, and I assume we would not say that this property is spiritual, but rather that it โ€œemergesโ€ from the material whole. Why canโ€™t we say the same thing about mental states? After all, they โ€œexistโ€ in exactly the same sense that liquidity exists (liquidity too has no place and no identity with any particular molecule, just as my sadness, or any of my mental states, has no place and no identity with any particular neuron). In other words, Iโ€™m asking how one defends dualism against emergence theory. Which leads me to the second question:
2. One could argue that there is a spiritual soul in the sense of a substance, and that these properties are its properties; then there is in fact causal interaction between the brain and the soul (as a substance), and the mental properties are its properties, just as liquidity is a property of a cluster of molecules. In this way one gets a significant difference between the property of liquidity and mental properties. But Leibniz has an argument against a spiritual substance (the soul as substance): if a spiritual substance is not in space but only in time, then the only thing that defines it is its activity. If so, the mental substance must be active all the time for us to be able to say anything positive about it. But if so, then the substance is nothing other than its activity, namely the mental properties. And if the substance cannot exist without mental activity, that is, without the mental properties, it follows that there is no meaning to claiming that there is such a thing as a spiritual mental substance apart from the propertiesโ€”that is, there is no substance of which these properties are the properties. Of course, all this follows from the assumption that one cannot say anything positive about something that exists in space and not in time, an assumption I do not see how to resist.
How would you solve these problems? Thank you very much in advance.

Answer

1. The mere fact that these are states does not mean they are mental, as you wrote. That is precisely the emergentist claim. But the clear intuition is that these are not states of the body, but of something of a different kind. Thought, cognition, consciousness, willโ€”all of these do not appear to be properties of a body. Moreover, as I explained in The Science of Freedom, the emergence of the mental from the physical is strong emergence, whereas all the other examples are weak emergence (a situation in which I can explain the emergence of the collective property on the basis of the properties of the particulars). Therefore the emergentist claim here is exceptional, and one should not bring proofs for it from the other examples. Furthermore, as I showed there, in principle there can be no way to demonstrate the existence of such emergence unless one shows that it is of the weak kind.
2. This is a baseless argument. a. The term โ€œnot located in spaceโ€ is vague. Maybe the soul is in space? Maybe it fills all of it (see Berakhot 5a)? b. Even if not, then it is outside space, but that does not mean it is only in time. I do not understand at all what โ€œexists only in timeโ€ means. You can say that spatial concepts do not apply to it, while temporal concepts do. But you cannot say that it exists only in time. That sounds like nonsense to me. c. Even if all this had some meaning, why would that mean that you identify the reality with the properties? There is a substance that exists in time (whatever that may mean), and these are its properties. d. To the best of my understanding, there is no such thing as properties that are not properties of something. If they do not characterize something, then they themselves are something. And if they are only properties, then there is a thing of which these are the properties. Especially in light of Borgesโ€™s example brought there, where he wonders what all the properties in this cluster have in common that attaches them to one another. Why not take one of my mental properties together with the color of the third-largest bird in Australia and make a substance out of that?

Discussion on Answer

Itai (2023-07-06)

Thank you.
You helped me with question 1, I just didnโ€™t understand the first line (โ€œThe mere fact that these are states does not mean they are mentalโ€). By โ€œstates,โ€ do you mean properties, like liquidity?

Regarding question 2, Iโ€™d like to expand the discussion a bit:
A. The characterization (partly negative) of something spiritual is that it is not located in space, in the sense that it has no location. I canโ€™t give latitude and longitude for the Form of the Good, or for my thought. Do you agree with such a description of a spiritual object? And also, what about spiritual properties? If my anger, my sadness, and my thought are spiritual, then in what sense do they exist if they are not objects? In short, my question is: how do you characterize something spiritual, as opposed to something material? What is written in Berakhot definitely makes sense, and I didnโ€™t know that.
B. What does it mean to be outside space? Is there a point I can indicate and it will be there? If so, then Iโ€™ll ask again: what distinguishes it (the soul), or any other spiritual thing, from a material object?

Itai (2023-07-06)

C. The identification of the substance with the properties follows from the fact that if there is no characterization of the soul other than its being in time, that means that if there were no activity in it (the mental properties were not expressed), then in what sense would it exist? It is not in space (unless there is some explanation of its existence in space in some sense), and if the properties do not operate, then it is also not in time, so it is left with no characterization at all. I think a good way out would be, again, to say that there is a mental substance and perhaps to say that it is a basic concept about which we cannot say anythingโ€”but that sounds a bit forced to me.
D. I completely accept that. Properties are properties of something. The previous sections are trying to examine of what.

Thanks again ๐Ÿ™

Michi (2023-07-06)
  1. Indeed, properties or states of substances (speed is a state and not exactly a property).
  2. Iโ€™ll repeat. When you speak about something that is outside space, what this means is that its existence does not take up a place in our space (or that it is present throughout all of it, as above). So in what sense does it exist? Presumably this is existence without occupying a place in space. Like the Holy One, blessed be He, for example (and the soul, which the Talmud in Berakhot there compares to Him). Does that mean that the Holy One, blessed be He, is a property of the material world? No. It means that His existence is not in space but in some other sense. He has a โ€œlocationโ€ that is not spatial. Like a photon, for example. But that does not mean that He exists only in time. You are assuming that there is only space and time, and that whatever is not spatial exists only in time. But noโ€”there are contexts other than space and time. Existence is not dependent on space.
    As for your final question, ask yourself: what distinguishes the Holy One, blessed be He, from any material substance? And also ask yourself: if He is not acting, does He not exist?
    From this it follows that there indeed are spiritual substances. The soul is like the Holy One, blessed be He. Mental states are properties of the soul, which is a spiritual substance.
    My feeling is that you are trying to describe spiritual substances in terms of material substances, and then of course you fail, and from that you conclude that there are no spiritual substances. But if from the outset you understand that there is no way to describe them in material terms (for that is the starting point of one who believes in dualism), you will not run into this difficulty and will not draw your conclusion from it.
Itai (2023-07-07)

Excellent, I completely understand now!

Correct me if Iโ€™m wrong, but very often philosophical discussions about things we know best from within (the Form of the Good, God, soul, or free choice), but which are not familiar to us in concepts accessible to us (concepts like space and time, matter, motion, and the senses in general), end in a kind of explanation that assumes in the background (perhaps subconsciously) the impossibility of explaining these things in the concepts accessible to us, yet we still want to preserve our intuitions about the existence of these things, and so we simply say that this does not belong to our world, and thus we have โ€œsolvedโ€ the problem. Philosophical discussions (especially in academia) almost never work like that, but always try to bring assumptions closer to our world in order to strengthen arguments (and do not rely only on intuition). Sometimes this โ€œescapeโ€ into intuition alone feels too easy to me, and even ad hoc, since whatever has no solution we simply say must exist, or must be spiritual, because we have no other optionโ€”which is basically a proof by negation. My question is whether you think there is a positive argument for strengthening our intuitions? And alsoโ€”what do you think about the academic approach as I presented it here?

And unrelatedlyโ€”Iโ€™d be happy to have a lecture series on philosophy of mind (dualism versus materialism in its various forms versus idealism), if something like that is planned ๐Ÿ™‚

Michi (2023-07-07)

I donโ€™t think that is always true. When there is no adequate explanation in terms of existing knowledge, one looks for something else. And then one posits its existence even if one does not know how to explain it. Moreover, the explanation cannot be in terms of existing knowledge, because otherwise we would not have needed something new. If you look for an explanation of spirit in terms of matter, you will not find one. But that is not a defect in the assumption that there is spirit, because by definition it cannot be reduced to matter.

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