Q&A: The Sages of the Talmud
The Sages of the Talmud
Question
Hello Rabbi, the Talmud is considered (and probably rightly so) a serious and powerful halakhic work. The reasoning is very sharp, and for the past 2,000 years people have never stopped dealing with its topics. But sometimes I find myself learning Talmud and standing there baffled by strange arguments and bizarre aggadot and stories. In some cases, this can be attributed to conveying a message through storytelling, but in some cases it simply seems that there is no logic to what they are saying. For example, just now I learned a passage in tractate Shabbat about semen that becomes foul-smelling, and the sages start discussing semen of an Israelite that is found in the intestines of a gentile woman—whether the semen putrefies more quickly in them or not (because they are not concerned with commandments). I don’t know whether this particular example expresses my question, but there are countless examples throughout the Talmud that are simply intellectually embarrassing for the sages of the Talmud (for some of them one can find a creative interpretation that turns them into something profound, but for some that is just not possible). I’d be glad to hear your opinion on the subject.
Answer
I don’t have much to say about this in a general, sweeping way. Sometimes there is a hidden message there (it is a parable). Sometimes it really is bizarre, stemming from the world of the sages, parts of which no longer speak to us today (neither factually nor in terms of values). Each case has to be judged on its own.
Discussion on Answer
This example, like most such things, is not “intellectually embarrassing” at all; it simply reflects different medical and scientific knowledge. How is this different from the many other remedies in the Talmud? If I, and probably most of us, had been there, we would have gone after it too (like Rav Ashi and Manasseh’s idolatry).
Not in order to hide things. Sometimes it is simply more effective to present ideas through parable and symbols. All interpretations of aggadot deal only with that.
See here in the Rabbi’s article:
https://www.knowingfaith.co.il/The Oral Torah/Odd discussions in the Talmud
Noam—maybe each time you could give one example and show how the issue is resolved. What do you think?
Y—I read the Rabbi’s words at the link and still did not find any secrets or hidden things there. And I didn’t find any reason to “hide” things of that sort! Fine, use parables and aggadot—but then say that it is a parable or aggadah, and do not present it as a fact, or a situation, or an event, or an event that was seen, or an event that could happen, and so on and so on. Unfortunately, I went through all the Rabbi’s arguments, and the reasons he gave do not convince me, even though they are nice and well thought out. If I thought it necessary I would really explain myself regarding each example there—great argument—but I cannot allow myself to waste more time on this than I already have. But I had to be honest with everyone. One should not look for wisdom in things that have no basis in reality—whatever they may be. And in my opinion it is foolish to use this method to hide things! After all, the Oral Torah was in any case given orally, and the words of the Tannaim were written as they are, not in secrets! So if someone tries to get around forced interpretations and contradict the words of the Tannaim, that is deception and manipulation, and it does not reflect the intent of the Tannaim who wrote what they wrote.
What kind of hidden message could be concealed in embarrassing statements? Are there no other ways to hide things? And what is the point of hiding them at all?