Q&A: Questions about the Fifth Notebook and More
Questions about the Fifth Notebook and More
Question
Hello,
I read the fifth notebook, and I was quite surprised by several points:
A. Personally, it is easy for me to imagine a situation in which a ruler in North Korea imposes an education system that teaches about an amazing event in which all their ancestors took part. After a few generations, it would become a clear and comprehensive tradition. True, regarding the Torah there are details we would expect to have been written differently, but all in all—under a monarchical regime, with many religious revolutions, it is certainly possible to plant various myths. For many years I found it difficult to identify with the Kuzari proof.
On the psychological level, perhaps part of the problem is that we do not perceive this as a tradition from our father and mother who heard it from their parents, but rather that we learned that this is what is written in the Torah, and our parents also learned it that way in school. But that does not really change the force of the argument.
B. You referred to the history of the Jewish people as evidence that there is something unique here. That surprised me especially. Many times you write that there is no providence, and that the history of the Jewish people is completely natural. That is how you explain the Holocaust, and likewise the establishment of the State. On the other hand, you seem to greatly minimize the difference between a Jew and a gentile, and you do not accept “divine essences” and the like in this area—and suddenly the number of Nobel Prize winners is evidence of Israel’s unique quality and of the giving of the Torah!
This aspect becomes even sharper if you suddenly explain the establishment of the State as stemming from Israel’s unique quality—without providence!?
C. One separate point—somewhere on the site, you wrote that from a religious standpoint Haredi society is not sustainable, whereas Religious Zionist society is. I would be glad for elaboration or references to another place where you discussed this. Clearly the social frameworks are a very significant anchor in the Haredi public, and on the other hand, sin crouches at the door: it is not clear how long they will be able to cope with modernity that way. But overall, the percentages of those leaving are small, people are at peace with their path and their faith (even if you see this as a failure, because they have not examined their faith, and because their beliefs are shallow and mistaken).
By contrast, in the Religious Zionist public there are almost no frameworks, and observance of the commandments stems from personal identification. But the success in passing on Torah to the next generation is not at all satisfactory. I would be glad to hear more about your position on the subject.
Thank you very much!
Answer
Hello.
A. You can imagine anything. The question is probability. I am not aware of any totalitarian ruler in our history who forcibly implanted such traditions. Add to that the surrounding considerations ((I too do not see the Kuzari argument as something especially strong).
B. Here there is already a misunderstanding of the matter. The uniqueness of our history does not necessarily stem from the Holy One’s providence, but from the Torah that we adopted and to which we are committed. That is what caused our survival and our unique character, and not necessarily divine providence.
C. It is hard for me to elaborate here (it requires an essay). I have written about it here on the site in several places. Two that come to mind right now (I think there are several more):
https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%99%D7%94%D7%93%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%95%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%9B%D7%9C%D7%94/
https://mikyab.net/%D7%A2%D7%9C-%D7%A9%D7%A7%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%A7%D7%93%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%98%D7%95%D7%A8-21/
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Questioner:
A. I still have not understood the meaning of the “fulfillment of the prophets’ vision” if we are talking about cultural traits that stemmed from the Torah. Part of the power of the prophets lies in foreseeing the future. Presumably, they had certainty that the prophecy would be fulfilled. A rather dubious reliance on traits that the Torah implanted in people who abandoned it does not seem like a reliable basis for prophecy.
Therefore, in my opinion, if you identify some prophetic fulfillment in present reality, you must conclude that the hand of God is involved in it, or at the very least some unequivocal spiritual essence implanted in the nation (as distinct from cultural traits).
Of course, there is the possibility that you did not mean that expression in its precise sense, but only the wondrous phenomenon of the Jewish people’s return to its land.
In any case, as someone experienced in editing books, I would recommend that you find more persuasive formulations for this part of the fifth notebook. You are getting yourself into corners that lead in directions different from your own.
B. I am not convinced there is an essential gap between traits that the Torah implanted in us (even after we abandoned it generations ago)—if these lead to the wondrous uniqueness of the Jewish people and its unusual history—and Israel’s unique quality, if what that means is that the giving of the Torah left in us this identity-mark of connection to Torah, from which we cannot escape.
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Rabbi:
A. I was not speaking there about the fulfillment of the prophets’ vision. That is a different discussion. There I mentioned only the very phenomenon of the people’s unique return to its land. As for the fulfillment of the prophets’ vision, that is a discussion I intentionally did not enter into, because it raises quite a few difficulties.
B. Neither am I. If that is what you call Israel’s unique quality, I have no problem with it at all. It will be clarified in my book.
As for the recommendations, I have made a note of them and will check. Thank you.
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Questioner:
Just to close the loop on the “prophets’ vision,” allow me to bring two quotations from your words.
Quote from the notebook: “the realization of the return to the Land and the prophets’ vision after thousands of years of exile”
Quote from your answer: “I was not speaking there about the fulfillment of the prophets’ vision. That is a different discussion. There I mentioned only the very phenomenon of the people’s unique return to its land. As for the fulfillment of the prophets’ vision, that is a discussion I intentionally did not enter into, because it raises quite a few difficulties.”
There is a contradiction, and according to your own approach you should delete that expression from the notebook, or clarify it very well.
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Rabbi:
In the second book of the trilogy I explain at length why it is difficult to build on the fulfillment of the prophets’ vision. In any case, here too my intention was the very uniqueness of the process about which the prophets prophesied, and not to prove the hand of God from the fulfillment of the prophetic vision. In any event, thank you for the comment; I will check the wording.
Discussion on Answer
Indeed, that is correct. The Torah influenced our culture and our traits, with no connection whatsoever to its actual observance. There are Jewish traits even among the greatest people who cast off the yoke entirely (some hold that casting off the yoke is itself a distinctly Jewish trait). The democratic trait, too, can stem from that same culture, and it has nothing whatever to do with commandment observance. On the contrary, nowadays among those who observe the commandments there is דווקא not much of a strong expression of democracy.
Therefore, the conclusions from which “there is no escape”—there definitely is an escape.
Hello, regarding B — the Torah that we adopted and to which we are committed, is that what led groups, most of whom cast off the yoke of Torah and became alienated from it, to realize the prophets’ vision in the Land of Israel??
Was it what led to the establishment of a democracy—a form of government that may be compatible with the Torah, but certainly does not stem from it??
I will quote your holy wording: “Add to this the realization of the return to the Land and the prophets’ vision after thousands of years of exile, the revival of language and nationhood out of nothing, and the creation of the only democracy in the Middle East (I think we are the only democratic state established in the world since 1948).”
It seems to me there is no escaping one of two possibilities: A. Israel’s unique quality; B. providence, at least in a general sense. In particular, I really do see your words about the prophets’ vision as contradictory—if the prophets’ vision is supposed to be fulfilled, it will happen by virtue of higher providence, or the imprinting of an essential stamp on the Jewish people that longs for its land (probably both). I do not understand any logic by which it would be fulfilled on its own, by those who abandoned the Torah, nor how one could see in that even a shred of evidence for anything.
I would be glad for clarification, but it seems to me that you need to sharpen this point very well in the notebook.