Thanks.

Could you explain more what the great advantage is in being Jewish? Where did you get the idea that there is such an advantage? And why is it ultimately worth it (that is, isn’t it preferable to live without so many prohibitions and give up the “advantage”)?

Shlomo, definitely preferable. A Jew seems to me like a person born with a “disability”…

Fulfilling your Creator’s commandments is a great virtue. Being equipped with a Torah that gives you a framework and perspective through which you relate to life is a virtue. It’s not a question of whether it pays off or not. But of course, there’s no arguing about taste..

Doing your Creator’s will—that is a virtue. I agree. But the question is why there is a virtue in a person not being satisfied with what the Creator wants from a gentile.

That is, there’s some assumption here that the gentile is the minimum and the Jew is the maximum. Then there is some virtue in advancing upward from gentilehood, but is that assumption justified? I don’t know. It may be possible to see these as entirely different demands, not something that can be placed on an upward scale—could you explain that further?

Also, “being equipped with a Torah that gives you a framework and perspective through which you relate to life is a virtue”—even if that is true, I don’t understand why for that one needs to be Jewish. Can’t a gentile also examine the world from a Torah perspective (and simply not obligate himself in the various prohibitions)?

Sorry for bothering you…

For me, conducting oneself according to the Torah is what it means to be Jewish. Whether one undergoes a formal conversion or not is a technical question. Practically speaking, it’s unlikely that someone would live that way without conversion.

Okay, I understand. Thanks.

And what about the first question? Why assume there is any point in obligating oneself in a whole range of commandments? Who says the Creator wants that?

I didn’t say the Creator wants it. In my view these are fuller and richer lives

You wrote: “fulfilling your Creator’s commandments”—so how exactly did you not say that?

“Fuller and richer lives”—is that a value? If so, then the Creator wants that (maybe doesn’t obligate it), and again, where did that assumption come from? And if not, then it’s just a mere desire—why is that worthy of any particular esteem?

They asked me whether I would convert, and I answered that I think I would. That’s all. As far as I’m concerned, this strange discussion has run its course.

No, no. It’s not a strange discussion; you’re just dodging the answer.

For a change, I agree with A.

After this whole thread I still don’t understand whether you see value in converting. Suppose you discovered that you were a gentile, and you had the ability to go on studying Torah and teaching at Bar-Ilan and so on, with your family—in short, everything stayed the same, and nobody knew about it—why convert? What is the value in that? Does God expect that of me? Maybe I’m being bothersome, but I’m genuinely asking an innocent question. I didn’t come away with anything clear from the thread here. Sorry, and I’d be glad for an answer

I said that I would convert because I don’t think it’s possible to live a full life of study and Jewish law without being obligated. This is not an academic occupation but engagement with what is supposed to guide me in my life.

Now I understand, excellent. So it can be summed up that this is merely a technical instrument in order to realize the value of “a full life of study.” After all, if you don’t convert you won’t be obligated by Jewish law, and you didn’t explain why one should become obligated by Jewish law, only that halakhic study has value, as stated

That already seems really odd to me. If you ask why I do X, you are obviously expecting an answer in terms of Y: I do X in order to attain Y. So the very form of your question means the answer will be instrumental. In short, this discussion is bizarre, as I wrote. If this is a fundamental principle then it has no explanation, and if it is not fundamental (that is, it can be grounded in a more fundamental principle), then it comes out instrumental. So how exactly do you expect me to explain the halakhic obligation itself?!
In short, I’m done.

Guys,
you’re missing an important point here.
There is a dispute whether a gentile is allowed to study Torah at all, and according to most views, certainly according to those who stick to the plain meaning, he is not allowed to study Torah and keep commandments, but only to deal with the seven Noahide commandments. So what exactly would Michi spend all day doing as someone whose whole commitment is to Jewish law and Torah study and who sees that as the core of Judaism? Endless hairsplitting on the laws of idolatry? Endless hairsplitting on the laws of theft?
In short, it’s not all that practical.
A person who is in any case completely fed up with commandment observance and studying Jewish law, and does it only with great difficulty, might well be thrilled to discover that he is a gentile and only obligated in seven basic prohibitions with no further binding content. But why would a man of Jewish law and fear of Heaven want that?

Who is obligating you in this “halakhic obligation”?

Let’s make some order here.

First, let’s sharpen the question precisely as follows: is there value in converting? That is, is there value in being Jewish? This is not a psychological question about one person or another, or even whether in the final analysis it is worth being Jewish together with all the various burdens. It is purely a conceptual question.

Next. The answers given were: yes.

And for two reasons: (a) there is value in Torah study. That is, studying a real way of life (and not an academic form devoid of meaning); in itself it is valuable to conduct one’s life in light of the Torah lens. (b) There is value in fulfilling commandments. A person who does his Creator’s will—that has value.

In my opinion, the first answer is excellent. I don’t expect any further explanation. For me, that really is a fundamental principle. There is a Torah of the Creator, and a person who conducts himself by its light—that is a value.

But why convert? That is, perhaps this is a technical step. For it is not likely that a person will go around in the world and conduct himself according to the Torah lens without obligating himself in it. Okay, and then conversion itself—and really the whole obligation—is technical for the sake of the value of “conducting life in the light of the Torah.”

But answer (b) suggests a different rationale. There is something significant about the obligation itself (that is, in not eating pork)—why? Here I truly do not understand. The Creator, for some reason, wants there to be a group that does not eat pork. And that really has value. Meaning, if I had been born Jewish, then of course there is value in keeping the Creator’s commandments. But I am a gentile; He did not tell me that He expects this of me. So why come and obligate myself for no reason? Why? That I truly did not understand.

Rational,
come on, really? Your answer is purely technical. So let’s frame it according to the views that a gentile may study Torah… after all, from the outset this was a conceptual question just to clarify the value alone, as stated.

There is value in belonging to an elite group that fulfills more commandments and repairs more things (in the world or within us). What’s unclear about that? The fact that I don’t know what the benefit is doesn’t mean there is no benefit here.

Dear Ch., why is my answer technical?
It isn’t clear, practically speaking, what gentiles are permitted to engage in beyond the obligations and prohibitions that reason itself requires of them.
And it’s not so simple to skip over that dispute and rely on the view of two or three, or some lone opinions, that gentiles may study Torah and perform almost all the commandments. (Indeed I heard in the name of the Magen Avraham that a gentile can, before a religious court, accept upon himself almost all the positive commandments—except, obviously, commandments whose content amounts to declaring that you are part of the Jewish people. Then he is not in the category of a gentile who is forbidden to observe them, but enters a new category of resident alien who has accepted upon himself the yoke of commandments. In any case, these are all hairsplittings and minority opinions.)

In any case, it doesn’t say here in the post that the Holy One, blessed be He, expects converts to convert, or that every person should convert. And as far as I recall, Michi didn’t hint at that either. He only said that he would convert if it were discovered that he was a gentile, because he prefers to be on a higher level in the service of God. As far as I recall, he didn’t write that he would expect everyone to act that way.

“The fact that I don’t know what the benefit is doesn’t mean there is no benefit.” In other words: blind faith? And you still haven’t answered who obligates you in the “halakhic obligation”?