I’ll respond later today.

Hello and blessings,
Your question can be discussed on two levels—either the very nature of the opening chapters of Genesis, or the tactical questions themselves that you asked. With your permission I’ll touch only on the second plane and, for the sake of the discussion, ignore the first (though it itself makes most of the question unnecessary).

First of all, there are those who have already dealt with these questions, such as Rabbi Aviner, who published an article showing how, ostensibly, 70 persons could reach the numbers of the children of Israel, or Natan Aviezer, who dealt with the development of languages and nations. However, it is not clear that there is any need for such things at all.
We need to know that in the ancient Near East, including the Bible, there is use of symbolic numbers meant to express ideas and not to represent an exact number. We see this in quite a few places. If the ages in Genesis or the numbers of the children of Israel are symbolic, then the whole question falls away on its own…

However, the obvious difficulty is whether non-round numbers too were of that sort, expressing ideas.
Well, the study of the ancient Near East teaches us that the answer is unequivocally yes! And this can be proven from several places in the Bible.
Take, for example, the army numbers in Chronicles. In an article published 15 years ago, Neria Klein showed that the number of Jehoshaphat’s soldiers in Chronicles is actually the exact sum of the army sizes of the kings before him in Kings!

Specifically,
it turns out that Asa’s army size === the number of the armies of Rehoboam + Uzziah
and Jehoshaphat’s army size ==== the number of the armies of Uzziah + Asa + Rehoboam

And what is the size of Jehoshaphat’s army?
1,160,000—a very non-round number…

Something similar appears in the numbers of the descendants of the tribes and the maidservants in Genesis (the number of descendants listed for the matriarchs is exactly double the number of descendants of the maidservants), and in several other places as well (for example, the number of camels in Midian in Judges, which contains a pattern paralleling the censuses of the children of Israel in Numbers).

That is, there is no doubt that in ancient times even non-round numbers expressed ideas. Therefore, it is entirely possible that this is also the case with the ages of the early generations in Genesis, and with the numbers of the children of Israel and the half-shekels. In fact, there are even internal textual hints to this effect (an improbable distribution of the numbers and so on).

For examples from Chronicles, see Klein’s article:
The Chronicler’s Code: The Rise and Fall of Judah’s Army in the Book of Chronicles

And also see Joshua Berman’s lecture here, where he brought several examples of this:

True, we cannot always decipher the meaning of every number, but the very idea that in several places in the Bible it is demonstrable that this is how things worked makes this option completely legitimate.

In fact, there are several practical suggestions, both for the ages in Genesis and for the censuses of the children of Israel. The suggestions regarding Genesis are very convincing in my opinion. Cassuto already showed that these involve multiples of 70 and of tens (numbers that express the concept of “many”), and his son Jacob went further in showing the specific symbolic meaning of some of the ages.
Take, for example, the age at which Adam died: 930, as a countdown. It is a number in a clear pattern of 7: 1000 minus 70. And his son Jacob noticed something interesting. Adam is the last to die in the first millennium of the count. Noah is the first born in the second millennium of the count, and Noah is the first to die in the third millennium of the count (he went on to show other such ideas). In other words, these are numbers based on a meaningful pattern, and each number was chosen according to the messages it was meant to convey. So yes, not everything is clear, but sometimes one can discern these ideas.

Similarly, there are several suggestions for the censuses of the children of Israel (including the half-shekels, etc.). In my opinion they are not sufficiently convincing, but as stated—the very fact that we have not yet deciphered them does not contradict the fact that this is how they once worked (such suggestions were brought by Kitchen and by Cassuto), and so it is reasonable in this case as well (see Berman’s lecture).

So you have learned that in the Bible numbers expressed ideas. We do not always know which ideas, but in several places one can definitely see them—even in non-round numbers. There is much more to say, and there are many other considerations I have not mentioned in connection with these passages (the significance of the first ten generations, and I cannot elaborate here).

Start with these sources, and if there are further questions we can discuss them.

Even today, the numbers given by Jewish historiographers are unreliable. Thus, for example, the Jews claim that 6 million Jews perished in the Holocaust—a typological number, 10 times 600,000! And I have already proven in my dissertation (approved by the senate of Patrice Lumumba University in Moscow) that no more than one million Jews perished in the Second World War, and they too perished in battles and bombings and not in a planned extermination, which it is unthinkable that an enlightened and cultured people like the German people would have carried out. The entire “Holocaust” is a myth invented by the Jews to justify their takeover of Palestine.

With blessings, Dr. Mahmoud S. Tz. Abbaslinger,
The Institute for Shattering Myths, Kubat al-Najma University, near Ramallah

Another myth that uses a typological number is the story of 600,000 Jewish residents in Palestine at the time of the establishment of the Zionist entity, exactly like the number told in the stories of the Exodus from Egypt… and everything is totally fabricated. If, as the myth says, the Jews underwent a Holocaust that wiped out 6 million of them in the years 1939–1945—how is it possible that three years later, in 1946, the meager “remnants” managed to defeat the armies of Arab states numbering tens of millions. Clearly these things are absurd…

In the last paragraph, line 6
… of tens of millions of residents of the Arab states. …

Okay, this is too much. Rabbi Michael, please delete the stupid comment above.

It should be discussed from the angle of “a person cannot incriminate himself,” “from their mouths and not from their written words,” etc.

By the way, a point really worth sharpening: I do not think that necessarily every number in the Bible is of this kind. But the fact is that the Bible also operated with this mechanism, and given that there is a strange number—this is a legitimate and straightforward interpretation that takes the time of composition into account. There is no one-to-one method for identifying when they meant this and when otherwise, but I do have some sort of algorithm on the topic that gives direction. Either way, there are such numbers and there are others, and therefore it is certainly possible.

With God’s help, 23 Av 5780

To Tzachi—greetings,

I did not merit to understand what is stupid about Dr. Abbaslinger’s argument. He uses the method accepted by Bible critics, that any number that can be defined as a “typological number” is invented—a method that M also used for the Bible.

According to this methodology, if there are sources that speak about the extermination of 6 million Jews in the Holocaust and about 600,000 Jews in the Land of Israel at the establishment of the state—then we should suspect that these are multiples of the typological number “600,000” of those who left Egypt, and therefore assume the numbers are fabricated.

Especially since there are many contemporary “studies,” such as the doctorate of Dr. Mahmoud Abbas, that openly claim the numbers are exaggerated. Even the matter of “the destruction of a third of the people” we could attribute to the aggadic motif of the destruction of a third of humanity in the days of Enosh.

In short: if we adopt the methods of Bible critics, we can “apply” those same methods to contemporary history as well and deny the obvious. And there is already a journal called Speaking Falsehood: A Journal for the Study of Southwest Asia in the 20th–21st Centuries (edited by Dr. Haggai Misgav and Hillel Gershuni) showing how one can, by means of the methods of Bible criticism, deny all the history of our own time.

With blessings, the parodic S.Tz.

Dr. Abbaslinger also used the method that every miraculous event never happened and was never created, when he proved the improbability that “a people of sword-worn survivors” could, three years after a terrible Holocaust, defeat the armies of enemy states numbering tens of millions. What can one do? The history of the Jewish people is wondrous…

Because M—to understanding shall you call: if there is even the beginning of an algorithm, that already makes the discussion really interesting (for me). Have you written about it? Could you please point me to it? Many thanks.

With God’s help, 23 Av 5780

Traditions about a flood that destroyed the world exist in almost all the cultures of the world. A multitude of testimonies from sources independent of one another points to a powerful historical event that took place and left its mark on all humanity.

It seems to me that precisely in the stories of the peoples of Canaan, the flood story is not mentioned, and indeed there is an opinion in the words of the Sages that there was no flood in the Land of Israel, based on Ezekiel’s words: “You are a land that is not cleansed, not rained upon in the day of indignation.” But it is also possible that the Canaanites refrained from telling the flood story because it stood in fundamental contradiction to their permissive moral world.

With blessings, S.Tz.

The priests of the Canaanites could always explain that they just weren’t sufficiently devout in permissiveness. If the Rema wrote that he had never seen in these generations anyone who rose to a difficulty question—in a halakhic context—then all the more so in matters of worldview, which are like glass in the hand of the blower over a coal fire, and standing it on the coals is but empty effort to warm it.

The description in the book of Judges (chapter 7) of the multitude of camels belonging to Midian—“and their camels were without number”—differs from the description of the spoil of Midian in the book of Numbers, where no camels appear at all.

And see Rabbi Oren Sa’id’s article, “Camel Domestication” (on the blog “Torah and Science”), that in the time of the patriarchs and even afterward there were only a few domesticated camels used for international trade, but the mass domestication of camels began only in the 12th century BCE, parallel to the period of the Judges.

With blessings, S.Tz.

With God’s help, eve of the holy Sabbath, “Choose life,” 5780

There is nothing in the years of the early generations that is any number recognized in biblical literature as a “typological number” with significance. We have not heard of 930, nor 912, 895, 905, 910, 962, 969, 777 (except for the brandy 🙂 ), nor 950, 438, 239, 230, 148, 205. The only one with a nice round number is Shem, who lived 600 years; the only exception whose number of years has significance is Enoch—365 years, corresponding to the days of the solar year—but he is also exceptional in the manner of his death.

As for historical memory of the longevity of the early generations, traces of it were also preserved in Mesopotamian stories that speak of kings who lived thousands and tens of thousands of years. Compared with them, we have precise traditions: Noah was still alive in the days of Abraham, and Shem was still alive in the days of Jacob. From the time of the patriarchs, the “weakening of strength” had already descended into the world. Abraham lived 175 years; Isaac, 180; Jacob, 147; Levi, 137; Joseph, 110; Moses, 120; Joshua, 110. And that was apparently only for select individuals, for already in “A prayer of Moses, the man of God” the norm is described: “The days of our years are seventy years, or if by strength, eighty years.”

In the Torah’s words in the passage of the Garden of Eden, it is explained that death is not man’s natural destiny. Had man not sinned with the tree of knowledge, he could have lived forever. So too Isaiah proclaims that in the future the world will be repaired and “He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces” (25:8). Even the dead will rise to life, as it is written: “Your dead shall live, my corpses shall arise; awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust” (26:19).

With blessings, S.Tz.

“He will swallow up death forever” means that God will swallow the enemy, who is like death and is never satisfied. “Your dead shall live”—the plain sense is that it speaks about the people in general, as in Ezekiel: “These bones are the whole house of Israel.”

I noticed at one point that when Noah was born, Adam and Seth were no longer alive. The earliest ancestor still alive at Noah’s birth was Enosh. At Noah’s birth, the first prayer in human history was uttered. Lamech prayed for his son: “This one will comfort us from our work and from the toil of our hands, from the ground that the Lord has cursed.” And do not let this thing be light in your eyes: what reason would there be to think that a person can ask God to change His decree?

Perhaps this is what the Torah meant in saying, “Then—in the days of Enosh—people began to call on the name of the Lord,” meaning that in the days of Enosh humanity discovered the ability to “call on the name of the Lord,” to turn to Him in prayer and supplication.

It was a tremendous boldness on Lamech’s part. And the “test of the result” seemed very disappointing. The years pass and Noah does not merit offspring. Two hundred years pass and there are no children; 300 and 400 years pass, and the son in whom his father had placed such great hopes remains childless.

Only at age 682, after 500 years of waiting, did Lamech merit to see the beginning of the fulfillment of his request, when three sons were born to his son—Shem, Ham, and Japheth. The main fulfillment of his prayer for his son, as he became the comforter of humanity after the terrible disaster of the flood—Lamech did not merit to see in his lifetime.

This teaches us that a person should not despair of asking and praying. There are requests and prayers that require “long breath”—500 years—before one sees the hope fulfilled.

With Sabbath blessings, S.Tz.

What do Lamech and prayers and changing decrees have to do with one another? God said, “By the sweat of your brow you shall eat bread,” and Lamech was looking for someone who would help him in the field and revive his spirit and support him in his old age.

M, what is this mechanism? It sounds interesting. And if indeed the numbers for the children of Israel are not according to the plain sense of the text, then how many do you think crossed the Red Sea? 600 people and 1,200 feet?

With God’s help, 24 Av 5780

To Tet—greetings,

Calling on the name of the Lord in the Bible means prayer, as stated in Psalms 99: “Moses and Aaron among His priests, and Samuel among those who call upon His name; they called to the Lord and He answered them.” And likewise in the words about Naaman: “He will stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, and wave his hand over the place, and heal the leper” (2 Kings 5). Perhaps “wave his hand” there also means spreading one’s hands in prayer. Likewise Onkelos translated what is said of Abraham, “and he called there in the name of the Lord,” as “and he prayed there in the name of the Lord.”

Here too Onkelos understood that “to call on the name of the Lord” is “to pray in the name of the Lord,” but the word “began” he did not understand as I suggested, “it was begun,” for if so he would have translated, “then they began to pray in the name of the Lord,” whereas he translated, “then the sons of men ceased from praying in the name of the Lord.” Perhaps he understood “began” in the sense of “was profaned,” or in the sense of weakness, that people became afraid to pray to the Lord; apparently it was difficult for him to explain that only in the days of Enosh did people begin to pray to the Lord.

However you understand Lamech’s statement, “This one will comfort us…,” it is the first time that naming a child is not an expression of gratitude for the past (such as “for from man this one was taken,” “for she was the mother of all living,” “I have acquired a man with the Lord,” and “for God has appointed me another seed”). Here, for the first time, the son is named for a hope for the future.

And the detail “from the ground that the Lord has cursed” seems to me to show that Lamech expected more than just comfort from his son in old age, but the repair of the curse of the ground. It seems he was precise in God’s words to Adam: “Cursed is the ground because of you,” meaning that the cause of the curse of the ground is man; and therefore he hoped and asked that his newborn son, through his merits and good deeds, would bring about a repair of the sin of the “great-great-grandfather.”

With blessings, S.Tz.

As for the resurrection of the dead—it is also explained in Psalms 104: “You gather their spirit, they perish, and return to their dust. You send forth Your spirit, they are created, and You renew the face of the earth.” And more explicitly at the end of Daniel: “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.” Therefore I see no reason to take Isaiah’s words out of their plain sense.

On “calling on the name of the Lord” I neither opened my mouth nor will I.
In hope there is nothing innovative, unlike changing decrees (about which I said there is no reason to invent such an idea and then announce that it should not be light in our eyes. If it is neither easy nor necessary, why should we strain our eyes?). To put spiritual ideas into Lamech when there is a simple explanation seems to me homiletics, and in any case, without proof, let it be what it will.
Also “You send forth Your spirit, they are created” is not resurrection of the dead, but that people die and their children live in their place. In the late Daniel (and I cannot elaborate, as is known), it indeed is explicit. Do I have some objection to resurrection of the dead? Or does it make any practical difference to me whether it is from the Torah and the Prophets or only after many great and grievous troubles? Whatever is in the tradition is good enough for me.
The plain sense of the verses in Isaiah is, in my opinion, clear as I wrote, and one who wants to move to homiletics bears the burden of proof. “He will swallow up death forever” continues the description of what God will do to the nations: “And the Lord of Hosts will make for all peoples on this mountain a feast of rich foods…” “and He will destroy on this mountain…” “the covering cast over all peoples…” “He will swallow up death forever.” It is all one thing. And I also added that the metaphor likens the bringer of death to death itself, as in the verse in Habakkuk I cited, “he is like death and cannot be satisfied.” The verses in “Your dead shall live” I recall are brought to mean, as in Ezekiel, the return of Israel to its land, which he extensively likened to the resurrection of dry bones; and now I also see that Joseph ibn Caspi preceded everyone, and in my opinion that is the simple plain sense, and the rest is thin homiletics.
In any case, it also saddens me that in recent days I have dealt here only in aggadic chatter and biblical matters, and my teeth have almost fallen out from lack of practical use and sharpness—where are you, reversible double doubt and migo de-itkatzai? And also in the main columns, to examine them properly one has to study at length in Sha’arei Yosher, and laziness and lack of time press hard against that.

And thus Radak explained: “According to the plain sense, what Lamech said, ‘This one will comfort us,’ was not said by way of prophecy, but he called him ‘Noah’ as a sign, by way of blessing and prayer, like Rachel called her son Joseph, ‘saying: May the Lord add to me another son.’”

And similarly it is brought in the name of Rashbam (in Mikraot Gedolot HaKeter): “Noah was the first born after Adam died, and therefore they called him ‘Noah,’ saying: ‘May it be God’s will that this one repair that one’s distortion,’ and it is a language of prayer.”

With blessings, S.Tz.

Similarly, Rashbam and Ibn Ezra explained “Then people began to call on the name of the Lord” to mean that at that time people began to pray. Rashbam added that the need to pray arose because troubles were renewed in the days of Enosh.

And let us too conclude with a prayer that you merit peace and tranquility to engage in pilpul over reversible double doubt, the ontic and the epistemic, in migo de-ramai and in migo de-itkatzai, from twilight to twilight 🙂

With Sabbath blessings, Sasson Tzweibelminger

🙂
May you merit many pleasant and good years

I assume a few tens of thousands (60–70 thousand)

With God’s help, eve of the holy Sabbath, Re’eh 5780

To M—greetings,

It seems that the tens of thousands you saw during the splitting of the Red Sea were those who passed through your path, but you did not take into account that there were 11 other paths!

With blessings, the cousin of Nachshon son of Amminadav, who is also named “Nachshon son of Amminadav” 🙂

S.Tz., you forgot that he saw only the men in front of him, but the women and children were later; if so, it’s four times as much for each path.
With blessings, the woman from before the MeToo era.

To the woman from before the “MeToo” era—greetings,

Before the “MeToo” era, the man was considered the woman’s protector, and therefore it stands to reason that they let the women and children go first, so that if the pursuing Egyptians caught up with them, the women and children would be better protected.

With blessings, Guardian of His Descendants

And so Jacob did in his encounter with Esau, where the danger was from the front—“and he passed before them”—so that if Esau wanted to do harm, the women and children would be protected.

With blessings, Sasson Tzweibelminger

With God’s help, 28 Av 5780

The book of Genesis gives us a moral message. Death is not natural, but a decree that came upon humanity because of the sin of the tree of knowledge. But still, until Noah (including Noah), life expectancy was about 900 years and more (except for two exceptions: Enoch, 365, and Lamech, 777. Perhaps “the righteous is taken away from the evil”—the flood.)

Because of the sin of the flood generation, there was decreed upon humanity in general the decree “and his days shall be 120 years,” but still there were select individuals who lived long lives, though not as before. Shem lived 600 years, and those after him until Eber (inclusive) lived more than 400 years.

The third breaking point is the generation of the dispersion, from which onward the life expectancy of the select individuals is again cut in half, to just over 200 years (except for one exception—Nahor, who lived only 148 years).

The next decline, whose cause was apparently different, is in the days of the patriarchs and afterward. Here the life expectancy of the individuals drops: beginning with 175–180 for Abraham and Isaac; 147 for Jacob; 133–137 for Levi, Kehath, and Amram; down to 110–120 for Joseph, Moses, and Joshua.

It seems to me that the generations of select individuals diminish, and their place is taken by a people destined to be “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” The divine matter will no longer appear through gigantic individuals, but through a people, destined to live normal lives like all nations and yet, as a normal people, reveal the spiritual nobility of a treasured people. From now on there will no longer be exceptions to the ancient decree, “and his days shall be 120 years.” That is the framework, and it is to be fully realized.

Here Isaiah’s prophecies come and promise that in the future there will be a repair of the sins of humanity described in Genesis. The sin of the dispersion will be repaired by the uniting of all the nations in asking to receive guidance to walk in the ways of the God of Jacob. The ways of uprightness that they will learn will bring about the abolition of wars, destruction, and violence, which had also led to the sin of the flood generation.

The repair of the ancient sins will also bring an increase in life expectancy as before the flood, up to the state in which “the youth shall die a hundred years old” (65), and beyond that also the repair of the sin of the tree of knowledge: “He will swallow up death forever” (25), and the resurrection of the dead: “Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust” (26).

The message of Genesis and Isaiah is one: humanity’s sin brought about the shortening of life expectancy; repentance and repair will restore long life to its original ideal state.

With blessings, S.Tz.

Paragraph 1, line 1
… a decree that came upon humanity…

Paragraph 8, line 1
… brought about the shortening of life expectancy…

I understand that not only were you not persuaded by the interpretation of Isaiah’s words, but you took the midrash and set it as a crown at the head of the whole book as its central message. Anyone who tries to read the chapters in Isaiah (25–26) and Psalms (104) in their context (Isaiah—death to the wicked and oppressors, and life for Israel. Psalms—a description of the order of the world, grass, rock badgers, and ships. And in Ezekiel chapter 33) will see with his eyes the plain meaning of the matters, and his heart will understand and return.

And what is more, you brought the verses about the creation of the new heavens and the new earth, where “the youth shall die a hundred years old,” and did not explain how the dead live and the youth dies. An old man on earth and a child in the heavens? In the school of Rabbi Yose ben Kisma they found written: “And the wall was to them for mortar”—these are the masters of midrash.

With God’s help, 28 Av 5780

To Ch.R.—greetings,

Psalm 104 opens with a description of nature and ends with the future vision, “Let sinners cease from the earth and the wicked be no more,” and therefore it becomes more likely that “You send forth Your spirit, they are created” is said in its plain sense about those of whom it was said, “You take away their spirit, they perish.” When “sinners cease from the earth,” then the sin of Adam, which brought death into the world, will be repaired.

As for your question (in the second paragraph), I explained (in the seventh paragraph) that Isaiah in his prophecies speaks about two stages. In chapter 65, a return to the pre-flood situation in which human beings lived 900 years and more. In chapter 25, the next stage—the repair of the sin of the tree of knowledge—which will bring the higher stage, “He will swallow up death forever,” and “Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust.”

The resurrection of the dead is sporadically mentioned as an actual matter in Kings, in Elisha, who revived the Shunammite’s son. Even the dead man who was thrown into his grave stood up on his feet (2 Kings 13). Malachi prophesies the return at the end of days of Elijah the prophet, who went up to heaven in a storm, and the angel tells Daniel: “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life…”

With blessings, Shimshon Tzweiblringer

Even from Ezekiel, who likens the revival of the people of Israel to the resurrection of the dead, it seems that resurrection of the dead was not considered by his listeners something far-fetched. For if it had been far-fetched in their eyes that the dead should live, then the metaphor of the revival of the people would have been a self-defeating metaphor… ,

It is true that you explained what I said you had not explained regarding the youth. I was negligent about that and only realized it after I sent it. Still, you created three stages without any hint whatsoever, and no prophet mentioned them either. What kind of method is this, to say “what are we dealing with here,” and what wall could stand against such freedom? In general, is it possible that such a great novelty—that the dead will live—would not be explained by the prophets over and over and repeated, and we would need to dig for food from ambiguous verses? For me, of course, it is fine. The verses are according to their subject matter, and there is no gap between the measure of detail in the prophet and the repetition within the prophets and the measure and importance of the novelty.

In Psalms everything is descriptions in the present: “the sun rises,” “You give them,” “You open Your hand,” “You hide Your face,” “You take away their spirit,” “You send forth Your spirit.” What is the logic that only “You send forth Your spirit” speaks of future things? At the beginning the chapter describes that God provides life with habitation and food, and ends that although the provision is not complete because they die, others arise in their place to continue the world and God’s care for the existence of the whole. Ibn Ezra hit the mark with a conjecture in his brief words: “the meaning of ‘they are created’—others.” Ending a chapter with a prayer about the future is common, and one does not infer from that regarding the rest of the chapter. In any case, that is my opinion, and I have not seen anything that would answer me from it.

Among the prophets, miracles rolled around under the table, and what is to be learned from that for general matters I do not know. Ezekiel stands out among the prophets in his use of illustrations to clarify ideas, and as the depth of despair, so the power of the illustration.

Regarding the extraordinary ages, see here: https://rationalbelief.org.il/%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%99-%D7%94%D7%90%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%91%D7%90%D7%92%D7%93%D7%AA-%D7%97%D7%9B%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9D/