Q&A: Faith in the Sages
Faith in the Sages
Question
How do you know that the sages of the Talmud were really as wise as you describe? Maybe they were like the conservative Haredi rabbis of our day?
Answer
Where did I describe them that way? I don’t think they were conservative, and certainly not all of them. But I don’t know how wise they were.
Discussion on Answer
The Tannaim and Amoraim were certainly not similar to today’s Haredim.
They were sandal-makers, farmers, and they didn’t shy away from almost any kind of work.
There was even a judge who made his living drawing water, and while he was working, people would come to litigate before him.
They were also fighters, like Mattathias and his sons.
They were involved in all areas of life.
My dear friend Barak, today’s Haredim are also involved in all areas of life! I’m inclined to believe you didn’t mean areas of culture and entertainment like love songs, cheap and vulgar literature, offensive movies, and television programs. Rather, you probably meant areas of general knowledge in the world. So I don’t think there’s any need to respond to the nonsense you wrote. After all, someone who studies Talmud or other sacred books is exposed to the general knowledge mentioned there. And beyond that, each person is drawn after the inclinations of his own heart: there are many Haredim who are interested in astronomy, and many who are interested in mathematics, or botany, and more. Any such generalization is completely foolish.
Mattathias fought, and his sons fought, while there were Torah scholars opposite them in the study hall; and without the learners there would have been no success. (And that is what the Haredim do as against those who chose to be the actual fighters.)
Haredim work in many occupations, beginning with sacred professions such as rabbis, judges, teachers and educators, kosher supervisors, ritual slaughterers, circumcisers, scribes of sacred texts, and ending with secular occupations, whether as employees or self-employed.
As I wrote, anyone who sees all Haredim as one uniform bloc is simply mistaken.
And it’s recommended to finally crawl out of the childish ignorance that says all Haredim sit at home counting dollars under the floor tiles.
Most Haredim are not knowledgeable in the sciences (that’s how it seems to me, in my humble opinion). Usually, if they are knowledgeable in something, it’s in very old things (Greek science, for example), not modern science. Haredim do not study in order to supplement the IDF, but independently of them.
One can definitely give honor to earlier generations and still not accept everything they say, so your proof proves nothing.
Besides, what’s your definition of a Haredi?
From the wording of your question it sounds as though you make wisdom and understanding depend on the degree of conservatism. That is to say, a conservative person is not wise, or a conservative person’s wisdom is limited.
Therefore I think the Talmudic passage I cited in tractate Shabbat refutes your view.
The Talmud itself is full to the brim with wonderful words of wisdom, so I don’t understand the question or why one needs confirmation that they were wise.
Interesting—do other nations also doubt the wisdom of their ancients, or is it only we who act like know-it-alls toward ourselves?
You yourself nicely defined the Haredi as conservative. Except that some are extreme in their conservatism and some less so.
The Haredi studies in order to fulfill the commandment of Torah study. And when there is a war, he remains in the study hall, just as they fought in earlier generations.
(As for other definitions of Haredim—ask the site’s great expert, Binyamin Gurlin.)
“Rabbi Zeira said in the name of Rava bar Zimuna: If the earlier ones were sons of angels, we are sons of men; and if the earlier ones were sons of men, then we are like donkeys—and not like the donkey of Rabbi Hanina ben Dosa or the donkey of Rabbi Pinhas ben Yair, but like ordinary donkeys.” (Babylonian Talmud, tractate Shabbat 112b.)
They were certainly more similar to today’s Haredim. The question is: to which Haredi stream should they be compared? (Anyone who sees all Haredim as one uniform bloc is simply mistaken.)