This is maybe one of the most anti-democratic and fascist things I’ve ever heard. If you want, impose criminal sanctions like we already have today. When you deny the right to vote, you’re basically saying that the Haredi position is illegitimate, like support for terrorism. It’s unbelievable how your hatred of the Haredim makes you spill over into the realms of fascism. And that’s after only yesterday you wrote to someone that tyranny of the majority is problematic.

What do you think about what the commenter said? It sounds like you’re a real fascist.

If this is called fascism, then I’m a proud fascist. One of the Haredim’s favorite techniques is to do whatever they want and then whine that people are out to get them. That doesn’t impress me in the slightest. Someone who cynically exploits the state and doesn’t contribute his share is abusing the right to vote, and therefore it is justified to take it away from him. Besides, democracy and rights are the last things they care about. They only use those values for their own benefit, but they themselves do not act according to them.
This is not tyranny of the majority; it is the majority defending itself against the tyranny of an exploitative and corrupt minority. It’s exactly like taking away the right to vote from terrorists.

And indeed their position is illegitimate, just like support for terrorism.

If someone is angry at the Haredim because they steal budgets or dodge service, he’s welcome to vote for one of the parties that promises not to sit with them; the options exist. As for the matter itself, I’m totally not opposed to benefits like the Buyer’s Price program, municipal tax discounts, and the like being given only to those who serve. But unlike you, I’m aware that there are people who think differently from me, and they have the right to express their opinion through the ballot box. Comparing voting rights to other rights and benefits is ridiculous. By the way, your comparison to terrorism only proves what I claimed: that your hatred of the Haredim is making you forget basic things like freedom of speech and pluralism.

Honestly, I’m just stunned by this bizarre idea. First of all, it’s obvious that a significant percentage of Haredim don’t vote for Haredi parties; I don’t know, maybe you could estimate it at 10% or even 20%. Second, and most importantly, there’s a complete lack here of even minimal self-criticism by the secular and religious public. Why the hell do they have 90 seats in the Knesset? The differences between them basically don’t exist (at least Lapid, Gantz, Netanyahu); it’s all completely personal. I’d be happy if someone explained to me what exactly the difference is in political or economic platform between Lapid and Netanyahu. You could do a whole doctoral dissertation on that in pseudoscience studies. Bottom line, it hurts, it really hurts. We are not heading in the right direction. Instead of uniting against the threat, people are spitting blood at the Haredim. It’s a waste of time dealing with them; this is a fundamentalist society, there’s no chance. We have the power and the ability to change things, and yes, everything goes through money. Such a shame, really—we’re heading in the wrong direction.

Indeed, someone who is angry at the Haredim should vote for another party that will take away their right to vote. That is exactly what should be done, and that is what I wrote. Exactly as should be done to terrorists who threaten a private person’s life—how much more so for parties and publics that threaten the existence of the state. Your comparison to freedom of speech and pluralism and to other opinions shows that you either don’t understand, or you’re a Haredi apologist (that is, a liar).

Dedi, don’t be stunned. I’m not talking about the Haredim as a group, but about Haredim who do not fulfill their obligations to the state. It would be good to use a little common sense and a little reading comprehension before going into shock. The claim about the differences between the other parties is irrelevant to the discussion. Nobody claimed there are no other problems in Israel or in other parties.

I don’t understand this response. I’m making a simple claim: the moment the Haredi threat is treated the way Gantz got under the stretcher after October 7, everything will look different. There’s a very simple solution here, that’s all.

dedi — Michi and L. probably meant that whoever doesn’t serve should be stripped of the right to vote, and even that is a far-fetched and anti-democratic idea. By the way, I really don’t agree that there’s no difference between Lapid and Netanyahu (leave Gantz aside, because he really is a potted plant with no opinion). On the hostages issue and the war there’s a huge gulf between them, also on the matter of the judicial reform, the Nation-State Law, and many other issues.

And of course people need to vote for parties that mark this threat and don’t disqualify any politician. It’s obviously clear that what drives Lapid is the desire to replace Netanyahu; he’d sell everything to the Haredim just the same, and that’s the heart of the problem. The only one who currently shows signs that he’s heading in the right direction is Liberman. Enough blaming others. Focus on what we can do.

Again, your comparison to terrorists and a threat to the state is ridiculous. There is no threat to the state in the existential sense—at most, a decline in quality of life. By the way, according to your logic, a Palestinian state is truly an existential threat, yet I haven’t heard you (and I also won’t hear you) propose preventing parties whose platform includes that from entering the Knesset. And no, I’m not Haredi; I’m just a sane person who understands that in a democracy it is proper to give representation to every opinion as long as it does not directly harm citizens. I’ll add that if I took all the opinions that caused damage many times greater to the state, probably half the people would have no voice today.

Rabbi, I heard you say that at The Third Way you decided not to run in the elections. That’s so disappointing. Right now there is no party speaking about the Haredi problem in a clear, lucid voice. All kinds of low-grade politicians who only care about the chair are busy with nonsense instead of the Haredi problem, which unfortunately is growing and growing (34% of elementary-school students study in Haredi education systems!!!), and that will be the end of Jeshurun.
I wish you’d change your mind, so we could hear a different kind of leadership (no doubt you’d need to tone down the cynicism, etc.).
By the way, I don’t hate the Haredim; it’s a public I love very much, but right now they are an enormous problem.

Meni — they are 24 percent, not 34, and even that should be taken with a grain of salt (it includes girls). They are indeed a problem (not an existential threat, as Michi claims). The solution is of course a coalition without Haredim, cutting budgets to institutions without a core curriculum, and enforcing universal conscription (and not the fascism Michi is proposing). Unfortunately there’s little chance this will happen, because the right will probably win and prefer to form a government with the Haredim. That’s why, as far as I’m concerned, anyone who votes for Netanyahu and Smotrich is voting directly for the continuation of Haredi draft evasion.

Democracy,
You’re really talking nonsense.
Think about a state where everyone is Haredi and households look like this—you understand the state would collapse, and 50% children won’t save us from falling. So these foolish excuses only deepen the problem. Michi believes you need to have a discussion about everything, and in my view that’s nonsense. When you have such a bizarre society, there’s nothing to discuss; you simply have to revoke their benefits and draft them by force. You’re only proving that even when data are brought and the dangers are explained, there will be those who make excuses through populism and empty talk.

I’d be glad to understand the criterion by which voting rights are granted.
Maybe we should strip voting rights from all the unemployed?
From everyone who didn’t serve in the army?
From everyone who stayed in school only until fourth grade?
From everyone whose IQ is below 80?
Maybe from everyone sitting in prison, because obviously criminals shouldn’t have voting rights?
Clearly not. Voting is given to every citizen, including someone who harms the state. He is still a citizen, and that is the role of democracy.

I don’t understand what unique characteristic the Haredim have that does not exist among draft-dodgers who are not Haredi, criminals, or post-Zionists.
If you mean to prevent voting rights from that entire list, that would certainly be the perfect utopia, and I’d be happy to see some comic about it or something…

May the Master permit it to His servant—to the owner of this site, for having lost faith in political autonomy. Economic leftism (and the Haredim are another case of economic leftism) is the price of democracy. I would not give up democracy just because people misuse it, just as the Master of the Universe does not give up free choice just because people misuse it. And since we believe that the owner of this site has not lost faith in autonomy, we can understand his words as a prayer that justice be done to the wicked speedily in our days. Amen.

Meni — Haredi society is made up of 50 percent children, so it makes sense that they contribute less (maybe Kohelet took that into account in their study, but it’s important to remember it). As for core studies, I completely agree that it is a moral crime.

Substantive Democrat — no doubt that if Michi had been a Roman, he would have supported democracy only for the high aristocracy.

Y.D. — economic leftism doesn’t exploit democracy; it believes it is moral to take a bit more from the rich for the welfare of a large part of the people. If you take into account the fact that a large part of the rich vote for the left, it’s not even exploitation but generosity.

Democ..

You’re really babbling.
Think about a country in which there are only Haredim and households look like this—you understand the country will collapse, and 50% children won’t save us from collapse. So those silly excuses only deepen the problem. Michi believes there should be a discussion about everything, and in my eyes that’s nonsense. When there is such a bizarre society, there’s nothing to discuss; you simply have to revoke their benefits and draft them against their will. You’re only proving that even when data are presented and the dangers are explained, there will be those who offer excuses through populism and nonsense.

Meni, obviously if the whole society becomes Haredi we’re in trouble. I was simply claiming that the high numbers of exploitation probably come from the large number of children. I’m not denying that it’s also connected to their low-paying jobs. I explicitly wrote that I support cutting budgets to institutions without a core curriculum. And regarding the scenario in which Haredi society becomes the majority, in my opinion that’s unlikely; people are fleeing that society (I personally know quite a few like that).

Until 200 years ago, the right to vote, even where it existed, was usually limited to people of high economic standing. Modern democracy expanded voting rights, and one of the results of that expansion was that the poor used their new electoral power to redistribute wealth in their favor. In that respect, the Haredim are no different. The difference lies in the scope of the redistribution: among the Haredim it is not universal-civic but communal-particularistic (our own people). In my opinion, it would definitely be worthwhile to transfer whole areas of government to local rule, such as education and welfare, to remove the government completely from the housing market, and to cut as much as possible from the social rights from which Haredim benefit. It’s just that for this the secular public would have to come down from Olympus and, instead of putting their trust in the High Court of Justice, find a way to work with Likud. That won’t happen, and meanwhile Likud continues its alliance with the Haredim energetically.

Why don’t you think voting rights should be taken away from Arabs? They too cynically exploit the state as much as they can. Why only terrorists? The entire Arab public is a fifth column.