The Role of “Nafka Minot” (Column 481)
In column 479 I discussed the purpose of Torah study and the relationship between study and halakhic rulings. I argued that, on the one hand, study is not merely a means to know what to do (i.e., an instrument for observance), and on the other hand, study should culminate in a practical conclusion. My claim was that the requirement for study to be conclusive does not make it instrumental to practice; rather, this is the proper form of study: proper study should end with practical implications.
One implication of such an approach is that we may discuss non-realistic situations or non-realistic nafka minot (practical differences). The Talmud contains several such cases—some situations that cannot occur at all (a “flying camel”), and others whose realization is extremely uncommon (placing a bill of divorce in the hand of a bound and sleeping slave). It seems to me this indicates that practical cases are presented as the conclusion of the study rather than as an instruction for what to do in practice (see on this in volume 11 of the Talmudic Logic series, on the Platonism of the Talmud).
In this column I wish to touch a bit on the concept of nafka mina—that is, the importance and function of practical implications in our study, and also in scientific research (after writing I noticed substantial overlap with column 404, but I decided to leave the discussion as is).
A nafka mina for betrothing a woman
There is a common yeshiva quip: one student senses that his friend is advancing a claim X (asking, answering, distinguishing), but in truth it’s just words with no practical consequence, so he asks: “Lemai nafka mina?”—what practical difference does it make? The other replies: “A nafka mina for betrothing a woman,” meaning: if a man betroths a woman on condition that X is true, then the question becomes whether she is betrothed or not.
What’s the problem with such a nafka mina? It turns every question into a halakhic/Torah question worthy of discussion in the beit midrash. Even the question of whether there are at least three fleas in this room is a nafka mina for betrothing a woman. The expression “a nafka mina for betrothing a woman” has become a way to mock statements lacking practical implications—and perhaps lacking meaning.
This quip has roots in the Talmud and the Rishonim. For example, Noam asked me a few months ago about nafka minot cited in Chagigah 6b:
Rav Chisda inquired: How is this verse written—“And he sent the young men of the Children of Israel, and they offered burnt offerings of sheep, and they sacrificed peace-offerings to the Lord—bulls” (i.e., were the olot sheep) or perhaps both were bulls? What is the practical difference (nafka mina)? Mar Zutra said: for the division of cantillation; Rav Acha the son of Rava said: for one who says, “Behold, it is upon me to bring an olah like the olah that Israel offered in the wilderness”—were they bulls or sheep? Teiku (unresolved).
The Gemara is uncertain whether the burnt offerings offered in the wilderness were bulls or sheep. To the question “what practical difference does this make?” it gives two answers: for the division of the verse (whether there is a pause after “olot”), or for one who vows “It is upon me to bring an olah like what Israel offered in the wilderness.” The second answer is essentially the “nafka mina for betrothing a woman,” since it too turns any question into a Torah question.
Another example appears in the Ran on Sanhedrin 15a. The Gemara there discusses the rule “As the owners’ death, so the ox’s death”—that an ox that killed a person is judged by twenty-three judges, just like a person who killed a person. In that context the Gemara asks: “How many judges for the ‘Sinai ox’?”—that is, with how many judges were the oxen judged that approached Mount Sinai and were liable to death (“both the flocks and the cattle shall not graze facing that mountain”).
The Ran, in his novellae there (15b), asks:
“And if you will say: Why derive anything from this—whatever was, was? One can answer: ‘Expound and receive reward.’ Alternatively, a practical difference emerges for one who vows: if he says, ‘I am a nazir if the death of the Sinai ox required twenty-three (judges),’—if it did require twenty-three, he is a nazir; if not, he is not a nazir.”
Again we see the “nafka mina for betrothing a woman.”
What is going on here? I suspect the Ran was actually joking—and perhaps the Gemara as well. But if so, the question remains: does such a question have meaning? Is there value in engaging it?
The meaning of such nafka minot
Note that in both cases, the option resembling the “nafka mina for betrothing a woman” is brought second, and in both a more serious option appears first: in both cases the aim is to understand what the Torah says. Remember: every exegetical question about the Torah lacks a practical difference. Where did Jacob—or Abraham—go? Why did Moses flee Egypt? What was the name of Aaron the Priest’s wife? What is the genealogy from Adam to Noah? All these are questions without practical consequence, yet people engage in them (those who choose to waste time on them—unlike me) because they clarify the meaning of the verses. That is Torah study (to be precise: low-quality bitul Torah), even if it is not the study of halakhah.
Notice that the questions raised in the Gemara in Chagigah and Sanhedrin are also exegetical questions about the Torah: whether they offered bulls or sheep, and with how many judges the ox near the mountain was judged. Moreover, from the “Sinai ox” case one might glean insights regarding the halakhic principle “as the owners’ death, so the ox’s death,” which could then have actual halakhic ramifications. If so, it is quite possible that the second nafka mina cited in Chagigah and by the Ran is presented as a mockery of the questioner: there is a simple reason these questions have value—they clarify the text—so one who hangs importance solely on practical implications is answered with: it’s a nafka mina for a vow or for betrothing a woman. In that case this is truly a joke in the modern sense described above.
By the way, in Brisk it is customary to brush off such “lemai nafka mina” challenges to lomdish inquiries. Someone presents two sides of an analysis, and the local wise-guy asks for the practical difference; to blunt his teeth one answers: “A nafka mina for betrothing a woman.” The point is that the sides have clear meanings and the question is understandable even without a practical difference. Moreover, the retort claims that the value of engaging in the inquiry—and of Torah study in general—is not confined to practical consequences; there is value in the intellectual clarification itself. This brings us back to column 479, where I argued that study has intrinsic value, and its role as an instrument for clarifying halakhah is only an enabling means, not the mitzvah of Torah study itself.
Nafka mina as a criterion for meaning
But the fact remains that in the Talmud—and in the beit midrash generally—we certainly do discuss practical differences for various claims. It’s hard to ignore that searching for a nafka mina is an important part of study. A nafka mina can clarify the different sides of a dispute or inquiry; even if it is not essential for the value of study (which exists even without it), it is certainly worthwhile to seek practical differences to sharpen our understanding.
Sometimes, however, one feels we must find a nafka mina because without it the discussion truly lacks meaning—not merely value. Sometimes people debate two sides of a Talmudic inquiry, and the sense is that both sides are saying the same thing in different words; there is no real difference in meaning. In such a case, a nafka mina is essential to show that there are genuinely two sides. By the way, in such a case the “nafka mina for betrothing a woman” will be of no help at all, for if there is truly no difference between the sides, there will be no practical difference for betrothal either. Here that line is certainly a joke, and effectively means the inquiry has no meaning.
An example is the inquiry mentioned in column 404: is Shabbat deferred (dechuyah) or permitted (hutrah) in the face of danger to life? I argued there that there is no nafka mina between the two sides; if I am right, it is doubtful the inquiry has meaning at all. Not necessarily because the sides are equivalent (saying the same thing in different words), but because the “deferred” side is false: there are not truly two sides—clearly Shabbat is permitted in the face of danger to life, not merely deferred. Note that if this is so, then there is indeed a difference in meaning between the sides, except that one of them is simply incorrect. One might try to claim there is no difference in meaning, since if Shabbat is “deferred” in the face of danger to life, the act is permitted; whether or not that claim holds, it already undermines the very difference in meaning between “deferred” and “permitted.”
By the way, in philosophical literature there is often a sense that many questions or claims lack meaning, and that proposed distinctions are merely two formulations of the same thing (see, for example, column 223 on “the French and their helpers”). In such cases it is very important to look for a nafka mina to sharpen the difference between the options—if there is one.
Between consequences and meaning: logical positivism
Note that the logical positivists held that a statement that cannot be tested by experiment is meaningless—that is, on their view, lack of practical consequences is identical to lack of meaning. But this is clearly nonsense. There are quite a few statements with no practical consequences, and it is hard to deny that they have meaning. In practice, there are many claims we cannot test empirically, such as: “There are exactly 103 billion ants in the universe.” There is no practical way to refute or confirm this. Does it have meaning? Clearly yes. One could reply that here the impossibility of testing is merely technical, not essential—but still, there is no way to confirm or refute it.
Beyond that, the claim “One ought not waste time” is a claim that cannot be empirically confirmed or refuted; in fact every value claim is like that. Is it reasonable to say such claims are meaningless? Carnap thought so (he called them pseudo-statements), but that is empty semantic pilpul (does this judgment itself have meaning? can it be confirmed or refuted?). In short, we must distinguish between statements that lack practical implications and statements that lack meaning.
What bothered the positivists about statements without practical consequences was that they cannot be empirically refuted or confirmed; they somehow identified a claim’s scientific status with its meaningfulness. But a more moderate and stronger criticism of such claims is available: if a claim has no practical consequences, it lacks meaning because it says nothing. Here “practical consequences” are the point, irrespective of empirical testability. For example, a value claim does have practical implications: “One ought not waste time” implies—don’t waste time. It cannot be tested empirically and is therefore unscientific, but it certainly has meaning.
And what about the claim “God exists”? Assuming we are speaking philosophically (deistically) and not religiously (theistically), it has no practical consequences. Does it have meaning? Certainly. Why? Because it has factual implications—namely, that there is a God. It asserts the existence of something in reality. In that sense, every proposition has meaning, since it states something about the world. Meaningless sentences are not propositions: contradictions (e.g., “this sphere is a square circle”) or nonsense (e.g., “virtue is triangular”) are meaningless. And what about questions like “What time is it?” They are not assertions about the world and do not point to a particular fact, yet clearly they have meaning. In this case the meaning is not something in the world to which the sentence points, but what occurs in my mind and leads me to answer the question—what I grasp when I hear it (that one is asking me for certain information).
Empty distinctions in science: on teleology
In the fourth conversation (part two) of my book HaMetzi HaRishon (The First Being) I discussed the dual formulations that exist in much of physics between causal and teleological formulations. It begins with Aristotle, who held that a stone falls to the ground because it “strives” to return to its natural place. I do not assume Aristotle thought stones have aspirations and make calculations; rather, the law of nature is that the stone moves with the goal of returning to its source—perhaps its Creator arranged it so.
Consider Fermat’s principle as an alternative formulation of the laws of geometrical optics. For example, Snell’s law links angles of refraction and refractive indices of different media and describes the path of a light ray crossing from one medium to another (e.g., water to air) and refracting. Instead of all this complexity, Fermat proposed that the ray always traverses the path that brings it to its destination in minimal time. It turns out this description is entirely equivalent to the standard description in geometrical optics. Likewise for the description of a body’s trajectory (position and velocity as a function of time) under a force: one can describe it via forces and accelerations or via energies and potentials. These, too, are equivalent descriptions.
Equivalent descriptions in physics mean that the same phenomena can be described in two entirely different languages, and the outcome of calculations in one language will not differ from those in the other. So which is correct? Both are. Yet one may still ask: does the light ray “calculate” minimal time (a teleological description), or does it simply refract when passing between media (a causal description)? Physics cannot answer that. From its standpoint they are the same claim in two different languages, because physics translates every claim into its practical consequences (predictions), and in this sense the consequences are the same—therefore the claims are the same.
Nevertheless, one might argue: if the light ray acts teleologically, then there is likely some intelligent agent controlling it (or having set things up that way), for the light ray surely does not make purposive calculations. From my remarks it follows that there is a consequence to this difference, even though scientifically they are the same claim. This demonstrates that while it is very useful in science to identify a claim with its observational consequences (which underlies Popper’s criterion of scientific status: empirical falsifiability), that identification is not complete. Outside the scientific domain, such claims are not necessarily identical. The emptiness of this scientific inquiry exists only on the empirical-scientific plane; it is not true that the meanings of the two sides are identical.
Another example is the dispute between the Copernican (heliocentric) view—that the earth revolves around the sun—and the Ptolemaic (geocentric) view—that the sun revolves around the earth. More than once (see column 112, here, and in brief here) I argued that in this case matters are even more extreme, since it is not clear we are dealing with two distinct claims (or descriptions) at all. When one observes the solar system from the earth’s frame, the sun revolves around the earth; from the sun’s frame, the earth revolves around the sun. But a change of reference frame does not produce a different claim; at most it is a different linguistic description of the same claim. It’s like the parable of those arguing about how to describe an elephant: one says it has two very close legs and two eyes; the other says it has two far-apart legs and one eye. The first looks from the front, the second from the side; both are describing the same thing (though here each is giving only a partial description, and thus there is a real—albeit illusory—dispute).
In the dispute between geocentrism and heliocentrism you will not be able to produce a nafka mina (a practical consequence distinguishing the descriptions). Here, unlike the previous example, this is not due to the limitations of empirical science but because these are actually identical claims. The question “Lemai nafka mina?” in this case truly hides the assertion that this “dispute” has no meaning; it is two different descriptions, equivalent to the very same picture.
I find this very amusing, because many self-styled know-it-alls (scientists or “scientismists”) explain to us, with great relish and certainty, that those (religious people) who cling to Ptolemy’s geocentric description are primitive—unaware that Copernicus already showed it to be false. This is of course nonsense. Copernicus merely found a more convenient coordinate system for describing the solar system; there is nothing inherently truer or falser in it than in the geocentric description that preceded it.[1]
[1] My claim of “no difference between the descriptions” concerns kinematics (the theory of motion). On the dynamic level (forces and accelerations) there is a difference between these descriptions, but I do not wish here to enter questions of fictitious forces, inertial frames, etc. A layperson who does not view this scientifically has kinematic descriptions in mind, and therefore my discussion here is the one relevant to him.
Discussion
And I answered you well there. It’s not nonsense at all.
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The rabbi wrote that on Shabbat there is no practical difference between "set aside" and "permitted"; what is different about Yom Tov, regarding which he wrote to me that there is room for an inquiry?
The rabbi wrote to me
Isn’t it incorrect to say that if there is no practical difference, then the discussion is barren and in fact this is not Torah study (not even called “study”)? That is, are the implications of the conclusions for reality the indicator of whether a discussion is Torah study (since Torah gives instruction)?
I don’t remember writing that regarding Yom Tov. I remember that Tirgitz raised a practical difference for this inquiry that I hadn’t thought of (I can’t find the link right now). But here I wrote it only to illustrate the logic.
I don’t think so. The examples of the condemned city, the stubborn and rebellious son, and the Sinai ox, among others, prove that. Besides, as I wrote, most biblical interpretation has no practical difference whatsoever.
In 404, the practical difference would be someone placing himself into a life-threatening situation on the last day of Shabbat, because even if it is “permitted,” one must avoid unnecessary Sabbath desecration when possible, though perhaps one is not obligated to make an effort in advance to avoid necessary Sabbath desecration (I thought this was a familiar practical difference). But there you cast doubt on this, that perhaps even under “permitted” one must make an effort in advance to avoid it, and I understood that it really is not at all clear that this is a practical difference.
In 430 you cited the Pnei Yehoshua, who cited a Gemara in Yoma, and there, according to Rav Nahman, who holds that impurity in public service is permitted, there is a dispute whether it is permitted and there is no need to bring pure priests from another priestly watch, but from the same watch one must; or perhaps there is not even a need to bring pure priests from the current watch that is serving. And seemingly this is a dispute over whether even under “permitted” it applies only when there is really something at stake (and therefore there is no need to bring from another watch), or whether under “permitted” it is entirely as if it does not exist at all (and therefore even from the same watch there is no need to bring them). But there you suggested a different explanation that is open to discussion.
So it follows from what you say that the practical difference regarding a woman’s kiddushin really does define things well.
Because if we are talking about something that makes a practical difference for a woman’s kiddushin, then that means there are two intelligible and real sides here, and the practical difference is simply to know what the Torah’s meaning is, without further implication.
And if we are talking about looking for a practical difference as a criterion for significance, then as you wrote, it is also not true that this makes a practical difference for a woman’s kiddushin, and they would need to find a real practical difference.
Absolutely not. It does not help define the matter at all. At most it is an indication that there is a difference, for otherwise there would also be no practical difference regarding a woman’s kiddushin.
However, the difference between the sides does not necessarily have to be expressed in a practical difference (as with teleological explanations in science, or the question whether God exists or not, or a dispute in biblical interpretation). I just thought of the example of neshekh and tarbit—two different prohibitions, distinct in essence, between which there is no practical difference.
[Regarding “permitted” and “set aside,” it seems there is a typo, or I didn’t understand. Here you wrote: “the side of ‘set aside’ is absurd, etc., and it is obvious that Shabbat is permitted because of saving life and not merely set aside.” But in column 404 the wording is the opposite: “even if Shabbat is permitted in the face of saving life, it is still reasonable to say that what is permitted is only what is needed.”
The question is, for example, a doctor standing over a patient with a bandage in his right hand that involves no prohibition and in his left hand a bandage that involves a prohibition—would he be careful to use the permitted bandage, or could he indifferently use the prohibited bandage? In column 404 it implies that he must be careful to use the permitted bandage, whereas here in column 481 the wording seemingly implies that he could indifferently use the prohibited bandage.
Now, you claim that there is no difference between “permitted” and “set aside,” so how is it that I think there is a difference between two formulations that say these two are identical—except that in one formulation they seem identical in the way people usually understand “set aside,” while in the other they seem identical in the way people usually understand “permitted.” ]
A. You presented a problem with the practical difference regarding a woman’s kiddushin, namely that it brings everything into the domain of the study hall. What is the answer to that in the end? Is the answer that a practical difference regarding a woman’s kiddushin is a necessary condition for entering the study hall but not a sufficient one, and there is another necessary condition that the question be within the Torah domain? If that is the answer, then (1) what is the difference between the answer “a practical difference for a woman’s kiddushin” and the answer “expound and receive reward,” and (2) is this answer self-standing, independent of the rest of the discussion about the importance and purpose of a practical difference?
B. A practical difference as a sign of a difference in meaning. You said that a practical difference proves there is a difference in meaning, and you said that when there is no practical difference (as with “permitted” and “set aside” according to your view) this can arouse suspicion that there is no difference in meaning. That is seemingly a bit of a leap, because the sign is probably one-way.
C. I did not understand the distinction: why, in the question of which one is rotating, is this a different description of the same phenomenon, whereas in the question of teleological or causal, this is a question with a practical difference outside the bounds of science? Just as in the causal vs. teleological case the practical difference is what really governs the path of the ray of light and whether there is some further intelligence above it, so in the rotations case the question is in which thing the act of rotation really takes place. It seems you are saying that in the question of rotation there is no existing truth to the question of who is rotating, whereas in the question of causal or teleological there is an existing truth to the question of what governs the process. I didn’t understand that—could you clarify?
D. [You argued that study need only be fit to be “mixable” into practical implication, but not that that implication is intrinsically the main thing, and you brought proof from the practical difference in “flying camel.” It seems you hold that the practical difference in “flying camel” is the Gemara’s only practical difference (and therefore it did not bring a more practical one). But perhaps there are many other practical differences in real-life cases, except that the point of novelty stands out most sharply in “flying camel” (that we are not forced to believe in a miracle that the witnesses found a flying camel in order to understand how they had time to travel from far away and see the testimony; rather we treat them as plotting witnesses), and from there one can extrapolate to more ambiguous practical cases on all sorts of paths, each according to the measure he estimates in his mind. That is, a practical difference was brought to sharpen the understanding, but it is assumed there will be practical implications across the spectrum in varying degrees—not that there is no practical difference in the world apart from “flying camel,” the polar case itself.]
What I meant was that there is no problem at all if a person desecrated Shabbat because of saving life. This is not a transgression under duress; it is not a transgression at all. Of course no repentance is needed. You are right that this is true also on the side of “set aside.”
A. I showed through the talmudic examples that a practical difference regarding a woman’s kiddushin comes alongside a more essential practical difference. I wrote that if there is no difference between the sides, then there is also no practical difference regarding a woman’s kiddushin. However, it may be that there is a difference between them, but it has no practical halakhic implication. And indeed that is like “expound and receive reward.”
B. You yourself correctly quoted that the absence of a practical difference arouses suspicion; not that it indicates there is no difference in meaning. This difference in wording arose precisely because of the leap you were talking about. But suspicion certainly does arise here.
C. I explained it. In the question of rotation, it is exactly the same picture, and the difference is only from which point of view you describe it (where the origin of the axes is). Therefore there is no difference at all between the descriptions. By contrast, causal and teleological description differ essentially. Beyond the difference itself, there may be an implication regarding the factor that brings about these phenomena.
D. “Flying camel” was an illustration of my claim, not a proof. Even if there are other practical differences there, the fact that they did not bother to identify them says that the practical difference is not the essence; rather, it is a tool to sharpen the fundamental theoretical insight, whether or not it has implications. I think neshekh and tarbit is a better example.
At the end of your remarks about the dispute between geocentrism and heliocentrism, would it not be correct to say that there actually is a practical difference regarding proving the truth of the theory of gravitation (according to which the greater the mass, the more things are drawn to / revolve around it)? And accordingly Copernicus shows that the phenomenon of gravitation explains a much broader range of phenomena, which is the criterion of truth according to Rav Kook of blessed memory (in The War of Beliefs and Opinions). So although subjectively there is seemingly no practical difference for us, if there is a practical difference for proving objective truth, should we not treat this matter more seriously?
It’s evident that you study philosophy from Rav Kalner’s writings via Rav Kook—with a salute. 🙂
As for your point itself, it has nothing at all to do with gravitation. It is explained according to both models.
A. But the Ran brings this as separate answers: answer 1, “expound and receive reward”; answer 2, a practical difference for one who makes a vow.
C. I do not see why the question of who is really rotating has no meaning and is not a difference in abstract essence. An implication regarding the cause is indeed unique to the question of causal or teleological.
D. (Based on the wording “it seems to me that this indicates that the practical situations are brought as the conclusion of the study,” I wrote that “flying camel” was brought as a proof and not only as an illustration.)
A. I wrote that in my view, both in the Gemara and in the Ran, the second answer is not really a second answer but a mocking addendum. Once there is one practical difference (not necessarily a practical one in real life), they add that the very search for a practical difference is a misguided caprice.
B. I explained. I don’t know what I can add.
D. Then I’ll correct the wording: “the matter may hint.”
B. I did not see an explanation, only a declaration that such is the case: that in rotations, even on the side of truth, there is no one body that is rotating (or that on the side of truth there is someone rotating, but this is excluded in note 1 as not belonging to the kinematic plane—which is a strange thing). We are dealing with abstract and unattainable truth, so how can one say that in a certain question—the question of rotations—that truth does not exist on one of the sides? I am astonished.
To the best of my judgment, I gave a clear and lucid explanation. But as I said, if that does not satisfy you, that is your right. I have nothing to add.
Are you saying that the question of who is rotating kinematically is mistaken, because rotation is not a property of a single body but a description of the relative state between two bodies?
Indeed.
But a law of nature—causal or teleological—even before we get to an additional intelligent cause that brings about the teleological one, is not just a form of description; it makes sense to ask what the law really is. But to ask who is rotating does not make sense.
But the question about the law—whether causal or teleological—even before one gets to the claim that in the teleological case there may be an additional intelligent cause that sees from outside and is aware of the purpose, that question can still be asked, even though from the standpoint of the pictures of the states in the world there is no difference?
Absolutely. It has no physical implications, but the pictures are entirely different in their content. Even before the implications. The implications only sharpen the difference between them. It is really not similar to the Copernicus example.
Exactly. I keep repeating this again and again.
(I wrote a comment at 17:52 and didn’t see that it had gone up, so I wrote another version at 17:58, and you already replied to that one.)
Yes, there is a glitch on the site whereby certain comments require approval before publication, and so they are published only after I see them. I hope Oren will take care of this soon.
It reminds me that I asked about the pilpulists: what blessing would they have recited over the manna?
(They still hadn’t instituted blessings then; it took about another 1000 years or more before they instituted blessings over enjoyment.)
Seemingly, there it’s a completely fabricated discussion.
Not like “A Sinai ox—for how much?”
but rather like “a Sinai mouse” (which was not liable to stoning)—for how much…