חדש באתר: NotebookLM עם כל תכני הרב מיכאל אברהם

On Pragmatism (Column 588)

Back to list  |  🌐 עברית  |  ℹ About
Originally published:
This is an English translation (originally created with ChatGPT 5 Thinking). Read the original Hebrew version.

Following the debate I held a few weeks ago with Aviv Franco about the rationality of belief in God, I published a column (586) that dealt with the dispute between rationalism and empiricism, since I felt that this dispute underlay our discussion (even if not mentioned by name), and in particular that it also underlies quite a few debates between believers and atheists in recent generations. Today I received a YouTube video in which Aviv reviews the debate (and responds to the column I wrote afterward), clarifying his position and his critique of me. In this column I wanted to respond to that video. You can regard this as a continuation of the debate between us. My response was delayed because the day I received the video I flew abroad. I’ve now returned, and here are my remarks.

On the dispute between empiricism and rationalism

Aviv opens the video by citing my point that we have two toolboxes for handling this kind of claim: the scientific-empirical and the philosophical-a priori. He understood me to be claiming that they’re equal in strength, but that’s not accurate. In the end I explained that these are not really two separate toolboxes, since the observational toolbox itself rests on philosophical considerations. In my aforementioned columns I sharpened the similarities and differences between philosophy and science.

He then moves on to explain the dispute between rationalism and empiricism, and to criticize rationalism. He presents rationalism as the view that knowledge comes from thinking/logic. Again, not quite accurate. The claim is that knowledge can also (!) come from thinking. A rationalist can certainly trust—and usually does trust—the tools of observation (I certainly do). Empiricism, by contrast, holds that knowledge about the world comes only (!) from observation.

He says that my argument against empiricism is expressed by what I quoted in the column from Mark Twain—that the world owes us nothing since it was here before us. That quip expresses the fact that the trust we place in our senses and observational instruments is not grounded. Already here I’ll say that this is not accurate, precisely for the reason I noted above. I have full confidence in observation and in science as tools for knowing the world; but that very confidence is a rationalist argument. My claim wasn’t that this trust is groundless, but that it is not empiricist. From that I also explained that empiricism does not offer an alternative to rationalism, since it relies on it.

Aviv also tied this to the certainty of logic, which again is imprecise. He repeatedly identifies rationalism with logic, but that’s a mistake. Rationalism speaks about factual claims about the world (and logic does not), and accepts the possibility that such claims can be a priori (i.e., not based on observation). These are claims like the principle of causality and the like. Logic is a different category, since it doesn’t deal with the world but with necessary relations of thought between propositions. From this you can understand that I’m not claiming that a priori claims are certain the way logic is. On the contrary, I’ve said and written that, in my view, nothing is certain (apart from logic, and from this very principle: that nothing is certain). I do claim that a priori claims are not disqualified a priori. They can be admissible and reasonable, even if not certain. Logic, by contrast, is certain precisely because it lacks factual content. This is referred to in contemporary philosophy as “the emptiness of the analytic.” Logic also doesn’t deal with the world. Aviv disagrees with this, as I explained and as will be seen shortly, but here he misrepresented my position, and thus erred.

In his summary at the end of the debate’s opening survey, he said that I maintain one can present a ‘pure’ philosophical argument for the existence of God. I don’t know what a ‘pure’ philosophical argument is. If the intent is an argument detached from facts and observations, then that’s not necessarily correct. In the argument I presented I certainly rely on facts. But I process them by means of a priori tools, and therefore one cannot say that the argument is wholly observational. Yet, as I noted, that is exactly what is also done in science. The difference between this argument and science lies only in whether the conclusion is empirically falsifiable or not.

On pragmatism

At the next stage Aviv says he doesn’t want to enter this dispute because it’s a long-standing, unsettled dispute in philosophy. But again I don’t agree. Today it’s clear to anyone even slightly familiar with philosophy that there’s no place for naïve classical empiricism (as I defined in the column). At least after David Hume, everyone understands that science contains a priori components. Therefore this philosophical dispute has in fact been settled. The resolution is that there aren’t two toolboxes or two sharply distinct positions. All parties agree that one must take observation into account, but equally, for all parties, the processing of observational data is done using a priori tools. The physico-theological argument I presented was of this very character: it began from facts and processed them via a priori tools (the principle of causality). I explained that in this sense it is a scientific method, except that the product (the conclusion that God exists) is not a scientific claim because it does not stand up to falsification.

Immediately thereafter Aviv says that he also avoids this dispute because in his view it’s unimportant, since my identifying his position with empiricism rests on a misunderstanding. Aviv claims he’s not an empiricist but holds a third position: pragmatism (he returns to this in the video’s closing minutes). He explains that the dispute between rationalism and empiricism concerns how one accumulates knowledge, while the pragmatist asks what this gives me. But if so, this isn’t a third position; it’s a position that simply isn’t interested in the question of knowledge. True, philosophical pragmatism claims that pragmatic tools can also lead us to make decisions about reality (or in philosophical questions), and in that sense it would seem there is a third position. But that’s just a mistake. When you make decisions about reality, you are assuming certain claims about it. He himself says more than once that such decisions are made based on information about reality. It’s not that pragmatism offers a different way to make decisions. If so, you must now answer the question of how you arrived at the claims on which you rely. And here there are only two possibilities: the rationalist toolbox or the empiricist toolbox. The conclusion is that pragmatism tells you at most what to do with your knowledge about reality, but it is not an alternative tool for knowing reality. To tell the truth, this mistake appears even among philosophers (or those considered philosophers), and yet it’s sheer nonsense. I’ve written my critique of pragmatism as a philosophical position in several places (for example in columns 480, 496, and 501), and I won’t go into it here.

Here Aviv explains what he said in the debate. He asks: why should I care that something is true? Why should it matter to me if it’s true? It’s only a means to know what to do. But I already answered him there: if his claim is that he doesn’t care whether God exists, that’s unrelated to the claim that God does or doesn’t exist. If you got to a debate about God, you presumably do care about that question. In any case, that was defined as the debate’s topic. If it doesn’t interest you—then of course we can part as friends. But you can’t enter a discussion of whether God exists and insist on discussing whether it’s interesting and why it matters. Pragmatism is not related to the question of whether God exists, but perhaps to the question of whether it’s interesting and relevant. That’s a different question. As I explained earlier, if you want to make any decision (a pragmatic aim), you make it on the basis of factual claims about the world. And again the question returns: how do you know those claims? Here you can be a rationalist or an empiricist (and in fact a combination of both, as I explained above). You can’t evade this by appealing to pragmatism as if it were a third epistemological position. Putting pragmatism on the epistemic axis is simply a categorical muddle.

I’ll present this from a different angle to clarify the matter further. Aviv repeats over and over that reality is what decides. That’s, of course, stark empiricism. It’s not practicality that decides but observation of reality. If his pragmatism is a stance that fixes its positions according to what reality shows (what “works” in reality), then he’s simply an empiricist. Scientific observation that tests a theory likewise asks whether it works or not. If it doesn’t work, the experiment failed and falsified the theory. Hanging truth on what works is not pragmatism but empiricism. In my view Aviv is mis-diagnosing himself, or mis-defining pragmatism (he’s simply calling empiricism “pragmatism”).

The conclusion is that I did correctly diagnose the dispute between us: I am a rationalist and he is an empiricist. Pragmatism operates on a different plane and doesn’t touch the discussion we held.

Aviv’s critique of rationalism

He then does briefly enter a critique of rationalism (because he himself senses that he is indeed an empiricist, exactly as I said. Pragmatism is not an epistemological position). He claims the chief critique is that ultimately reality decides. If he means that observational findings carry weight, I fully agree. Even a rationalist position like mine, which is ready to accept principles a priori, will retreat from them if observation forces it to do so. But if he means that everything we learn is from reality, I don’t agree. Yet you will find in his words no argument at all for that position, beyond this assertion itself. I explained in the debate and in the column that there are a priori principles about which reality does not decide (like the principle of causality). This is the lens through which we view reality, and we have no observational feedback about it. But for Aviv it’s self-evident that reality decides. That’s because the position he’s presenting isn’t pragmatism but empiricism. Not only that, it’s naïve/classical empiricism (in my column’s terminology), and as I explained, it’s perfectly clear today that this is false.

Along the way he comments that a rationalist will hold to his position even if reality shows him otherwise. I, at least, don’t know such a rationalist. That’s not a rationalist stance but a delusional one. I explained above that rationalism is the view that one can arrive at claims about reality by thinking (and the empiricist disputes this). But when there’s a contradictory fact or observation, a rationalist too will, of course, abandon his a priori assumption. The “irrational rationalist” as Aviv presents him is a deranged straw man.

He then connects this to the debate we had about whether logic is an a priori truth or a human invention or the result of observation (he alternates between these latter two claims—again a contradiction in his words). In any case, here again there’s a categorical mistake. If logic is indeed learned from observation and is true only because it “works,” that’s exactly what describes a field like physics, or the natural sciences more generally. If so, on his view it follows that logic is part of the observational natural sciences, and hence he apparently thinks mathematics and logic are subject to empirical falsification. That’s truly bizarre. I’ve never heard of anyone conducting an experiment to empirically test a logical or mathematical claim. Sometimes one performs an experiment (usually computerized) to examine a mathematical conjecture that hasn’t been proved, mainly to gain different intuitions about it. But a mathematical or logical theorem that has been proved is not subject to empirical falsification (contrary to what he says in the video—that reality is not bound by our logic. A serious error, of course). Would anyone imagine conducting an experiment to check the extraction of a square root from a quadratic equation, or the length of a leg in a right triangle computed via the Pythagorean theorem? Even regarding Euclidean geometry, which might seem to have been “falsified” by Einstein, that’s a misunderstanding. It wasn’t falsified and cannot be falsified. It simply turned out that our world is not a model for it. In schools and in mathematics departments people keep studying Euclidean geometry even after Einstein’s supposed empirical “falsification.” Are they all crazy? Do they not know this has been shown to be wrong?

One must understand that science is never certain, since a scientific theory may always be falsified in the future. Mathematics and logic, by contrast, yield certain results. If they were part of the natural sciences, I don’t see how he explains their certainty. Why are there different academic departments dealing with these fields at all? In standard academic classification, mathematics and logic are not part of the natural sciences. I’ve often explained that they are branches of philosophy (see, e.g., columns 434 and 480, and the series that begins with column 155).

The example he brings to clarify his position is Zeno’s paradox. The claim is that an arrow can never reach its target, since to reach it it must cover half the distance, but to reach the half it must cover a quarter of the distance (half of the half), and so on. But in reality we all know it does reach its target. We see that reality is what decides, not logic/mathematics. This is, of course, an excellent example of Aviv’s mistake. On his view there’s no problem here at all. Observation merely shows that our mathematical/logical assumptions are incorrect. We should now throw the theory of geometric series or of calculus into the trash. In his subtext he assumes that the ‘rationalist’ (his straw man) will hold that the arrow really doesn’t arrive, even though observation shows that it does. But that’s nonsense for two main reasons. First, it’s obvious that even a rationalist will agree that the arrow reaches its target, since, as I explained, he too is bound by observation. But beyond that, precisely because of our trust in observation we see this as a paradox and immediately look to see where Zeno erred in his logical/mathematical reasoning. The assumption is not that the logical reasoning is correct but “just doesn’t work” in reality. On the contrary: if it doesn’t work in reality, we must have erred in the logic—that is, in the application of logic. Again we see that logic is not subject to change in light of observation. And indeed the solution is very simple: Zeno erred in his mathematics. The sum of an infinite series can converge to a finite value. I’ll note that in most of Zeno’s examples it’s fairly easy to show where the mistake lies. Logic and mathematics don’t function like science, where if a theory doesn’t work (is falsified) one discards it. In short, the example Aviv brought shows exactly why he himself is mistaken.

His next example is quantum theory, which he claims contradicts human logic. Again he’s mistaken—though here some physicists and philosophers (a small minority) share his error. They think quantum theory taught us a different logic (that is, that it showed our logic to be incorrect). I’ve just written a whole article on this, and I won’t go into detail here. I’ll only say that if Aviv were right that there’s a contradiction to our logic in quantum theory, then one could infer any conclusion from it (and also its negation). Logic teaches that from a contradictory system, any conclusion whatsoever follows. That is, on his view quantum theory could not yield predictions, and thus ceases to be science. I think his mistake here is very similar to the mistake he had regarding Zeno’s paradoxes (incidentally, Zeno’s arrow paradox served me in another article to explain the pathologies of quantum theory). Observation showed us that our mode of thinking was mistaken, but not that logic is incorrect. And indeed, in light of quantum theory we changed some of our assumptions (some a priori), and this is an excellent demonstration of the importance of observation—which, as noted, is accepted also by rationalists like me.

From what we’ve seen above it follows that Aviv does not accept the Kantian distinction between analytic and synthetic propositions, since he ties all rationalist thinking to logic. We now see that he essentially denies the very existence of a priori claims. For him all claims are a posteriori (that is, derived from observation). To present such a position as rational while it contradicts what almost all philosophers, almost all mathematicians (but see my series beginning with column 157 on Ron Aharoni), and almost all physicists think is a bit odd (and I’m using a blunt understatement here). Note that I’m not talking about whether he’s right, since it’s inappropriate to use ad hominem on that (as opposed to his blunt and clearly mistaken ad hominem regarding David Hume—see below). But our discussion wasn’t whether God exists; it was whether the route to Him is rational. Here it’s certainly relevant to rely on the fact that this route matches the mode of thinking of almost all philosophers, mathematicians, and scientists (though of course not all of them believe in God—that’s another debate, regarding the truth of the conclusion, not the route itself).

Back to the religious God: between deism and theism

Aviv now claims that my argument presents a very “light” divinity, i.e., an abstract one (deism). But I believe in a religious God (theism), and I also behave according to that belief. That’s true, and it came up in the debate. But in subtext he’s essentially claiming that the God whose existence I proved is not the God I actually believe in. That claim is incorrect and, with respect, unfair. As I explained there, there is no contradiction between these. My aim indeed was to argue for deism and not for theism. That was the discussion’s topic, and this was explicitly agreed upon between us in the preliminary discussion. Moreover, I explained to him there that my path to the theistic God passes through deism. In my view the philosophical stage of proving the existence of a philosophical God is a necessary and very important stage on the road to theism. If we don’t pass through it, we can’t progress. Since I estimated that we wouldn’t have time in the proposed format to make that transition—and from experience, if one skips the philosophical stage one can’t truly discuss theism—I suggested that we focus on deism. Aviv agreed to that, and so the discussion dealt only with deism. The repeated attempt to shift to the theistic God is not fair, since we agreed not to discuss Him now. Nor is it correct, because I certainly have rational arguments to reach theism as well, which does not contradict deism. After proving the existence of a deistic God, there’s nothing to prevent arguing that He also revealed Himself and commanded, etc. That, of course, will require further arguments, but there is certainly no contradiction between an argument for deism and a theistic conclusion.

If, as a pragmatist, he isn’t interested in this discussion or doesn’t think it important, he could have objected to holding the debate or proposed something else. But it’s neither fair nor reasonable to agree to a debate on deism and then complain that we aren’t dealing with theism. It’s hard for me to ignore the sense that this relates to the weakness of his arguments on the deistic plane.

His opening

At this point Aviv reviews his own opening. He repeats his claim that to argue for God’s existence we have to think of two possible worlds: in one God exists and in the other He doesn’t, and the question is what action I should take to ascertain His existence or non-existence. He presents this as pragmatism, but it’s simply empiricism. He’s really asking what the empirical indicator of God’s existence is, or, in other words, what experiment could falsify or confirm His existence. That’s a thoroughly empiricist question. It has not a hint of connection to pragmatism. Note that the “action” he speaks of is an experiment or phenomenon that would test or attest that God exists. Therefore, translated, he’s merely saying here that the claim that God exists is not subject to falsification. As an empiricist he thinks that what is not subject to falsification is not true or at least there’s no reason to assume it’s true, but I began by saying that as a rationalist I think otherwise. A philosophical argument can also serve as such a basis. I don’t see what this repetition added.

Time and again you can see that the dispute between us is a dispute between an empiricist and a rationalist, exactly as I explained, and there’s no connection here to pragmatism. If he wanted to ground it on a pragmatic basis, he should have asked: what should I do in the world with God to live better and more correctly, as opposed to a world without God (and the answer—at least regarding a theistic God: keep the commandments). But the question he asks is different: what action will reveal His existence. That’s the posing of an empirical falsification test—i.e., an expression of empiricism.

I’ll now just touch on a few points that appeared later which nevertheless need sharpening.

The dragon

Aviv responds to the addition I made in the column regarding the dragon under the table. I said there that if I saw a table floating in the air and had no other explanation, I’d be prepared to accept the claim that there’s a transparent dragon beneath it holding it up. That is, I distinguished between asserting something about the existence of a dragon and bringing evidence for its existence. Aviv claimed that I set up a straw man, because he too agrees that if there’s evidence we’ll accept the claims about the dragon. But I wrote explicitly that we likely agreed on this, so I don’t understand his claim against me. For some reason he again lapses into the confusion between a claim about existence and evidence for it.

Immediately afterward he rejects my example of the floating table because there could be countless other explanations. Well, I know that too (and therefore I too am not inclined to accept the existence of dragons). He also adds that the fact that there is a possible explanation doesn’t make it true. Of course. Who disputes that?! He ignores the fact that precisely for these reasons I explained that I’m assuming for the sake of discussion that there is no other explanation, since the example is brought only to illustrate the difference between a claim and evidence. On the assumption that we have no other explanation, would we not accept the dragon explanation? Would we regard it as irrational? How is this comparable to someone’s claim about the existence of a dragon without any indication? Aviv keeps returning to the confusion between claim and evidence. This example serves only to clarify the point that, given evidence, Aviv too would accept the existence of a dragon (just as he accepts the existence of an electron, an electromagnetic field, the Higgs boson, etc., by virtue of indirect evidence even if we do not see them). That’s a simple matter that the example clarifies well. Anything beyond that was never claimed by me.

But there is a substantive issue here, because all along Aviv ignores the explanation I added in the column. I said that although we agreed that given evidence we’d accept the dragon’s existence, a dispute remains between us about the possible nature of such evidence: is it only empirical observation or also a philosophical argument? Aviv takes for granted that only empirical observation is relevant evidence, since he is an empiricist (despite his denial). Again you can see that our dispute is between empiricism and rationalism, of course.

Proof by elimination

He then discusses the meaning of a proof by elimination. He says that if I’ve rejected one explanation, that doesn’t prove the truth of a different explanation, since there may be many other explanations. That’s entirely clear and needs no elaboration (as we saw in the previous paragraph regarding the dragon). But in applying this to the physico-theological argument, he adds another mistake, as I’ll now explain.

First, I’ll recall what I wrote in the column: in the debate Aviv alternated between two contradictory claims—there is no explanation, and perhaps there’s some other explanation. The option “there is no explanation” cannot serve as a rational alternative. It may be true, but as you’ll recall, my aim was to show that there is a rational route to belief in God. If so, it’s entirely rational to assume there is an explanation—and I’ll gently add that the claim “there is no explanation” is certainly not preferable or more rational.

Second, my claim is that if there is any explanation at all (an explanation, for our purposes, is something that produced the complexity—since complexity does not arise by itself at random), whatever it may be, that is God. As you’ll recall, we’re dealing with deism. I didn’t speak about commandments and behaviors that God commands and obligates, and therefore I didn’t say anything about who or what that God is. If I had proposed a particular explanation, one could have argued that perhaps there’s some other explanation. But I’m discussing the question whether there is some explanation at all, without entering what it is. Regarding that general question there are only two logical options: either there is an explanation or there isn’t. There are no further options.

If you reject the option that there is no explanation (including the option of an infinite regress, as I explained there), since it is less rational, and certainly not more rational, then the conclusion that there is an explanation is indeed rational (and in my view also more correct—but as noted, that’s not our topic). The conclusion is that there is something or someone that produced our complex world. I didn’t say a word and did not commit myself to anything regarding the nature or character of that cause. For me, whatever produced the world is the God I’m talking about. Thus this is a standard proof by elimination: if we’ve ruled out the “no explanation” option, then there is an explanation. Here there’s no place at all for the claim that “perhaps there’s another explanation.” It’s no wonder that when Aviv explains this supposed “fallacy” he chooses specifically to use the dragon example and does not turn to the physico-theological argument, since there he cannot make the claim he’s making.

Naturally, one can discuss counter-arguments such as the anthropic principle, multiverses, and so on. But we didn’t reach any of that in the debate, and in my book The First Being I address them all. As far as what arose in the debate, there was a straightforward logical proof by elimination, and the “fallacy” Aviv points to is simply irrelevant to it.

Begging the question

Aviv then turns to the fallacy of begging the question. I’ve explained more than once that there’s no fallacy here (see, for example, the thread here), and the examples he brings are all beside the point. Every valid logical argument “assumes the conclusion”; otherwise it wouldn’t be valid. The reason that if one accepts the premises one must accept the conclusion as well is that the conclusion is contained in the premises.

I must note that his formulation of Anselm’s ontological proof—“God is existent, therefore He exists”—could serve as a canonical example under “straw man” in an encyclopedia of ideas. Whoever is interested can see the correct formulation of that argument in the first conversation of my book The First Being, and there learn why that argument is far from being as silly as it is typically presented by people who don’t understand it.

The “fallacy” of the special case

The “special case” fallacy he insists on is not a fallacy. Aviv’s description of the fallacy is as follows:

The principle X is always true except in case a. Why? Just because.

But again he sets up a straw man. One can certainly speak about the problematic nature of adding ad hoc assumptions or ad hoc exceptions (that prevent falsification). But these aren’t fallacies; they’re weak claims. Yet none of this is relevant to us, since in our case we’re not talking about adding an ad hoc assumption. Again Aviv confuses a claim with evidence, exactly as we saw above.

I explained that my claim—that God departs from the principle of causality—is based on indications and not on a mere assumption or conjecture. The argument is that denying it leads us to an infinite regress (I won’t re-enter that here; as noted, this is explained in my book The First Being, conversation two). Therefore this is a proof by elimination that there must be a link in the chain that is primary, i.e., does not require a prior cause.

The remaining objections

He then adds a few more objections to my argument itself, such as why I accept that God has no cause but the laws of nature or reality do need a cause. Later in the video he says that the universe, in fact, is for the most part not complex and ordered, and therefore overall does not have low entropy.

As I explained above, I don’t see a point in addressing these here, for several reasons: (1) Our discussion is not whether my argument’s conclusion is true but whether the argument is rational. (2) All these objections are answered in detail in my book above. Briefly: the first question I’ve answered many times here as well (regarding God I have an indication that He has no cause. That’s not a claim but a conclusion from an argument). Regarding the second, I explained in the book that I’m not dealing with the second law of thermodynamics, and therefore entropy was brought only to explain the notion of complexity and as an answer to his claim that complexity has no objective definition (only a comparative one). That’s simply a mistake he keeps repeating here; the very existence of the concept of entropy in our physics shows this. I also already addressed the question of the origin of the principle of causality in the column.

David Hume and ad hominem

Earlier I noted ad hominem, and at this stage Aviv blatantly commits this fallacy. The fact that David Hume lived many years ago says nothing about his positions. He claims that had Hume known modern scientific information, he would have changed his view of the principle of causality. That’s a shocking philosophical misunderstanding, but beyond that it’s ad hominem. First, he didn’t show how the new information is relevant (and not by chance—because it isn’t relevant to the philosophical discussion in any way), and he attacks not the claim but the person who made it. In my argument I did not rely on Hume personally, but on his argument (that causality is an a priori principle).

Continuing his remarks on Hume, he discusses gravity. He explains that if we don’t see it that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, since reality says that it exists. In what sense? We see the phenomena it produces. Well, it’s unpleasant to repeat that this is empiricism, not pragmatism. But to the point, there’s ambiguity, misunderstanding, and perhaps even contradiction in his words. The ambiguity (and perhaps contradiction) is that he shifts between arguments for the existence of gravitational force based on the phenomena it produces, and arguments that this force is only a description of motion and not an existing entity in itself. Either way, it leads to the conclusion that Aviv is mistaken. Why? Because if the claim that there’s a gravitational force is only a rephrasing of the claim that bodies have acceleration (since we see the acceleration but not the force), then Newton’s second law (the relation of force to acceleration) is a definition, not a law. I don’t know of a physicist who thinks that. Beyond that, the fact that physicists invest enormous resources and effort—and most of them do so with full confidence—in discovering the existence of gravitons, shows that they think the force of gravity is an existing entity and not merely a way of describing bodies’ motion. The assumption is that there is a force (or a field), and since there is no action at a distance, there must be particles that mediate that force from place to place. If it were only a description of motion, there would be no place to search for gravitons. Behold: when physicists speak of the existence of gravitational force they are speaking of something ontic, and this without having seen it. The phenomena we see with our eyes (motion and acceleration) lead us—by analysis that uses a priori principles as well—to the conclusion that there is a cause that produces those phenomena. Ring a bell? That’s a straightforward physico-causal argument.

Does the principle of causality operate “outside reality”?

Aviv claims that I apply the principle of causality outside reality. That’s only partly true. First and foremost I apply it to our reality. I claim that our reality must have a cause. Even if the cause is something outside our reality, the principle of causality is applied here to reality itself.

But beyond that, I don’t understand what “outside reality” means. That’s an expression Aviv coined; you didn’t hear it from me. He speaks of the existence of something that is “nothing,” and points to the nonsense in that. But I fully agree—that’s his nonsense (again he attacks a straw man), not mine. For me, God is part of reality, since I began by saying that when I speak of belief in God I’m talking about a factual claim. He’s not part of physical-material reality, but He exists. Therefore, by definition, I’m not applying anything outside reality. I’m certainly prepared to accept the existence of reality beyond physics, and indeed I’ll apply the principle of causality to it as well unless there’s a good (!) reason not to (as with God).

Paley’s argument

It’s odd to me that when coming to refute Paley’s argument Aviv spends long minutes repeating the same mistake I already explained to him in the debate and reiterated in the previous column. There is no difference between an artificial object and a natural object. Complexity always requires an explanation (i.e., a cause). That’s a simple statistical consideration. Yet with respect to a natural object we have a ready-made answer: God (and Aviv will say: nature; and then I’ll ask him whether that is an explanation or that he has no explanation). But regarding the complexity of an artificial object, it seems to us it’s not God, and therefore specifically about it we ask: so who is it? That’s the whole difference.

His mistake here rests on his earlier erroneous assumption that complexity is a matter of comparison, and therefore complexity as such does not require an explanation. We have seen that complexity has an objective definition (via entropy), and I claim that it certainly requires an explanation. This argument is statistical (it’s unlikely that a complex thing will arise by itself without a guiding hand), and therefore it is not tied specifically to experience (contrary to Aviv’s repeated assertion).

Regarding his claim that there are countless explanations for why Paley’s argument fails, I’ll merely note that I don’t know even a single such explanation, and as we’ve just seen, the explanation he offered here certainly isn’t one. In my view it’s an excellent argument, eminently rational, and in my book God Plays Dice I explained that it’s merely a popular garb for the physico-theological argument, and I also showed that those who attack it simply don’t understand it.

The timeline and causality: infinite regress

Before the end, Aviv returns again to the question of time and causality, proposing the possibility that time is infinite (and entirely compressed at the Big Bang singularity). I assume that in physics I understand a bit more than he does, but I won’t exploit that here because this argument is irrelevant. I don’t want to enter the apparent contradiction in this description: is the time axis of zero length or of infinite length? I know of the contraction of objects in space, but what is the meaning of contraction of space itself? Within what (or relative to what) is it contracting? And so too regarding time. These have possible explanations (intrinsic curvature in mathematics and physics), but that requires geometry and advanced measure theory, and I won’t go into it here.

What matters more for our purposes is what Aviv gains by proposing to compress the time axis to a point and by speaking of its infinite length that is compressed inside there. How is this supposed to refute my argument? He didn’t explain this, but I surmise he means the argument he briefly raised in the debate—that an infinite regress is not necessarily a fallacy because perhaps time is of infinite length. If the time axis is infinite, then in his view there’s no impediment to accepting an infinite explanatory chain.

But I answered that in the debate and in the column. I explained that, contrary to his assumption, time is not a necessary component in the causal relation. The problem with an explanatory regress of the infinite type is not tied to the length of the time axis. Moreover, I wrote that an infinite chain of causes can fit in finite time even without topological compressions, simply via a model in which each link in the causal chain lasts half as long as the one that follows it. That’s all. There’s no need here to invoke the Big Bang and modern physics. So if the problem were the time axis, it wouldn’t exist at all. If that were the problem, I would accept explanations involving an infinite regress. But none of this is relevant, because even if the time axis were infinite, that doesn’t help Aviv. The flaw in an infinite regress is not about how long the causal chain lasts, but that an explanatory regress presupposes an actual infinity, not a potential one. I explained this in my book The First Being, conversation two.

To be brief, I’ll explain it this way. To present an explanation for some phenomenon, you must begin at the beginning and progress up to the event you’re explaining. You cannot progress backward—i.e., present an initial explanation for the event, then another explanation for that explanation, and another for that explanation, and so on, proceeding backward to infinity. The reason is that if you present an explanation in that way, you have not presented an explanation. That’s exactly the “explanation” of ‘turtles all the way down.’ Think of walking along the X-axis leftward from the origin. You will not reach the end after infinite time. You will never get there, simply because there is nowhere to get to.

It’s easier to see it as follows. You cannot define mathematically the reverse process whereby one begins walking rightward from minus infinity and then, after infinite time, reaches the origin. That process is not well-defined mathematically, because its definition contains a point that is undefined (and does not exist). Think, for example, how you would compute the time it takes for our walker to reach the point X = –1000 km, or X = –253,451,997,2340 km? So it is for every point on the path. Our walker will never reach any point on that path; that is, there is no path here (a path is defined as a function X(t) that gives me position as a function of every point in time).[1] By contrast, the process of walking leftward is well-defined; it just has no end. The process of walking rightward from minus infinity is not defined at all because it cannot begin. Therefore an explanation in the form of an infinite chain is no explanation. But this is not the place to expand on this further.

[1] Incidentally, this is the mistake of the author of Chovot Ha-Levavot (“Duties of the Heart,” in the Gate of Unity) and other ancient philosophers, who brought an argument against the view of the world’s eternity from the claim that if the world were eternal, we would never have reached our present day.

Discussion

A’ (2023-08-24)

[Where can one read your article about the logic of quantum theory that you mentioned in your remarks?]

Michi (2023-08-24)

It has not yet been published. It is about to be published over the holidays in Rabbi Cherki’s bulletin (they commissioned the article from me).

Modi Ta’ani (2023-08-24)

Following this article, an idea occurred to me that I don’t know what it’s called: that there is really no difference between rationalism and empiricism. Just as we have five senses through which we learn about the world, we also have “a priori senses,” like a sense for mathematics and a sense for causality. Because we are accustomed (since Plato) to distinguishing between the world of matter and the world of ideas, we distinguish between these senses, but they all actually give us a view of the real world, and the distinction between rationalism and empiricism is therefore an illusion.

Michi (2023-08-24)

That idea is the subject of my books Two Carts and Truth and Stability.

Sho’el (2023-08-24)

Will it be uploaded to the site?

Nav0863 (2023-08-24)

The rabbi is basically distinguishing between the “what” and the “why.” The argument he presents assumes the “why” as part of the “what,” but there is no source for that in the “what.”
A point that came up in this framework toward the end of the debate was whether logical priority can exist without temporal priority. The rabbi argued that it can, since time is part of the “what,” whereas logic belongs to the realm of philosophy, that is, the “why.”

I wanted to ask the rabbi how, under this assumption, he explains the Gemara’s statement, “her bill of divorce and her hand come simultaneously.” After all, there the problematic aspect did not stem from the question of “when” (that is, the “what”) but from the question of “why,” and there we necessarily need to explain a logical causality that is mutually dependent.

It would seem that the Gemara’s words support Aviv’s view that there is no logical priority except within a temporal framework.

Thank you very much

A.Y.A (2023-08-24)

It is interesting that Rabbi Cherki commissions articles from someone whom he holds to have non-Jewish conceptions, and this requires consideration.

Michi (2023-08-24)

Everything goes up on the site. After publication.

Michi (2023-08-24)

I don’t know what he thinks about my views. In any case, the editor invited it, not him. Perhaps in coordination…

Michi (2023-08-24)

I didn’t understand your connections (philosophy and logic are “why,” and time is “what”).
As for “her bill of divorce and her hand,” see my lectures on this in the written lessons on Gittin. But as for your question, again, I didn’t understand it. The problem of “her bill of divorce and her hand” has nothing to do with time, and precisely because of that, the loop there really is problematic. There are two events there, each of which is the cause of the other and does not precede it in time but in essence. True, they say “her bill of divorce and her hand come simultaneously,” but that is a novelty, and that very novelty could not have been said if time had been involved here.

Modi Ta’ani (2023-08-25)

Are the books devoted to refuting this idea or supporting it? (I read the book’s Wikipedia page and didn’t reach a definite conclusion.)
If the latter is correct, that is very interesting, because in my view it confirms atheism, whereas in your view it confirms theism.

Michi (2023-08-25)

The latter.

Pinchas (2023-08-25)

I didn’t understand the plain meaning of the following sentence:
“The observation showed us that our mode of thought is mistaken, but not that logic is incorrect.”

Pinchas (2023-08-25)

Another question: when people speak about the curvature of space, the expansion of space, and the like (with regard to space), does anyone actually understand what is being discussed, or is it merely a mathematical trick and nothing more? Is human consciousness capable of understanding “space” that expands or contracts or curves? Relative to what?

Michi (2023-08-25)

No paradox of Zeno ever showed that a proven mathematical result is incorrect. On the contrary, it showed that the mathematics he used was incorrect, and indeed he had no proof for it. He assumed it because of his mode of thought, which was mistaken.

Michi (2023-08-25)

If by “understand” you mean “visualize,” then no. But there is understanding that is not connected to visual imagination.

Elran (2023-08-25)

Thank you very much, dear rabbi, for the article and for your investment in these important topics, which indeed occupy a broad place in public discourse today. Unfortunately, many rabbis have not had the wisdom to provide the public with experience, knowledge, and platforms for this kind of discussion (which is very, very necessary in our time).
So all that remains is truly to bless you: chayilkha le-oraita, and may your wellsprings spread outward, with God’s help.

Pinchas (2023-08-25)

I do not mean visual imagination specifically; the question is whether such a worldview is possible at all according to the concepts of reason familiar to us.

A (2023-08-26)

Could you please explain to me why the principle of causality is not something based on observation? Isn’t the claim that it seems reasonable to you to assume this principle because you see that in the world everything has a cause? If not, why does it seem reasonable to you to assume it? I am referring to the sentence I quoted below.

“Rationalism speaks about factual claims about the world (and logic is not that), and accepts the possibility that such claims may be a priori (that is, not on the basis of observation). These are claims like the principle of causality and the like.”

A (2023-08-26)

Another thing I don’t understand is how a rationalist can verify the knowledge he claims to have acquired rationalistically. The first question is whether this is certain knowledge or not. If it is knowledge with absolute certainty, I would be glad for an example of such knowledge and how one knows it is absolutely correct. If it is not certain, that is, there is some degree of uncertainty regarding this information, how does one assess that degree of certainty in a non-empirical way? If the answer is subjective probability, then I would ask: who cares?

Michi (2023-08-26)

There is mathematical understanding, and that is understanding in every sense.

Michi (2023-08-26)

The explanation is very simple: because there is no possibility of grounding it in observation. No observation can show you a causal relation, and certainly not the principle of causality. I do not see that everything in the world has a cause, and neither do you. Because it is impossible to see that. You cannot even see that a particular event has a cause. You impose that insight on what you see, but the insight is something that preceded the observation.

Michi (2023-08-26)

Nothing is certain, neither what arises from observation nor something known to me a priori. You have no way to assess degrees of certainty empirically. Any assessment of a degree of certainty, even regarding observation, is statistical—that is, the result of a priori tools.

A (2023-08-27)

I didn’t quite understand. If a theory predicts things and it turns out (empirically, of course) that it predicts correctly, then our uncertainty regarding the theory is reduced, no?

A (2023-08-27)

So what exactly led you to assume that everything has a cause?

Michi (2023-08-27)

Correct. And that itself is an a priori principle.

Michi (2023-08-27)

The understanding that everything has a cause.

nav0863 (2023-08-27)

That is precisely my difficulty. For even though “legal effectuation” is not an event extended in time, still the legal effect is the result of a prior cause. And there the hand is the cause of the bill of divorce—and vice versa. So how can it be possible for the two states to take effect together?

I think one is indeed forced to say that neither the hand nor the bill of divorce is the cause of the other, in the causal sense, but rather only a given state that requires a correlation of the two data points. And the Torah is the cause of the divorce, in that the Torah said that when the bill of divorce is given into her hand, from that point onward the state is that she is divorced.
I saw in the lessons on Gittin that the rabbi cited the Ketzot HaChoshen 331, “come simultaneously,” in a place where an act of acquisition is needed. Perhaps that is the basis of his words.

I saw the rabbi’s lessons, and in my opinion there is a page or more missing there.

Michi (2023-08-27)

I don’t understand the question, and it is also hard for me to discuss things at such intervals.

Ezra (2023-08-28)

I noticed that Aviv “apologizes” for his mistakes by saying he is not used to discourse with people at such a level. In my opinion, the debate shows the rational believer versus the non-rational atheist.
I also greatly enjoyed the columns that followed it. Thank you very much.

One small thing I didn’t understand in the remark about the mistake of the author of Duties of the Heart and other philosophers—what I saw was proof for their view that infinite regress is impossible in a concrete sense. Where is the mistake?

Michi (2023-08-28)

There are mistakes there in the definition of infinity, such as starting to walk rightward from minus infinity.

Ben Makhir (2023-08-28)

Could I get a more detailed explanation? I am now studying Emunot VeDe’ot of Rav Saadia Gaon, and as far as I understand, this is exactly what he argues—that if the world were eternal, we would never reach the present time, because it would not be defined.

Michi (2023-08-28)

I explained the point. I don’t know what more there is to elaborate here. If you want to study mathematics, this is not the place for it.

A (2023-08-29)

So if someone tells me that it’s raining outside and I go check and indeed it’s raining, then arriving at the conclusion that he was right is an a priori principle?

Even if so, that still does not answer the question of how one can obtain certainty in knowledge acquired a priori.

A (2023-08-29)

And how did you arrive at this understanding? Intuition? Innate knowledge?

Michi (2023-08-29)

Either you are not reading what I write, or I am failing to clarify my meaning. I will write it one last time:
1. There is no certainty about anything. Not for rationalists and not for empiricists.
2. It is impossible to confirm the principle of causality through observation. That is, not only is it not of observational origin, it also has no observational confirmation after the fact.

Gilad Hornik (2023-08-30)

In quantum mechanics there is the measurement problem, which is a logical problem as far as I know. Sabine Hossenfelder has a nice article about it: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjYjbeEoIOBAxXugP0HHZl5A90QFnoECCAQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Farxiv.org%2Fpdf%2F2206.10445&usg=AOvVaw0sKQgMbwJ2fmaT2iBs8UUn&opi=89978449

Michi (2023-08-30)

The question is what you define as a logical problem. Clearly it does not include a contradiction. But thanks for the reference. I will try to read it.

Gilad Hornik (2023-08-30)

The logical problem is that for every reasonable set (in my view) of metaphysical assumptions that I posit and with which I try to interpret quantum mechanics, I arrive at a contradiction. Of course the mathematics of quantum theory is not contradictory; the contradiction arises when I try to give it an interpretation within a metaphysics that I accept a priori. I once asked a professor at the Technion about this problem, “According to what you are saying, there is not one reality!” and he answered me, “Who told you reality is one?” Of course, a priori I am not willing to accept that we live in two realities.

Michi (2023-08-30)

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If you assume a metaphysics and on top of it add a logical layer, that chain is metaphysics, not logic.

Gilad Hornik (2023-08-30)

I agree in principle. I think there is still a gap here compared to other metaphysical problems. Quantum mechanics in its current form contradicts metaphysical assumptions so basic that we nevertheless do not give them up. Relativity also contradicted a metaphysical assumption (that we live in Euclidean space), but we abandoned that assumption.

Michi (2023-08-30)

That is clear. But not logic, since if there were a logical contradiction here, it would make quantum theory unscientific (it would have no predictions) and in fact also devoid of real content.

Sho’el (2023-09-04)

I could not understand why pragmatism does not answer the problem Aviv faces regarding the existence of causality:
A pragmatist claim would explain that I do not really think there is causality in the world; rather, when I perform a certain action, another occurrence happens along with it correspondingly. It may be that the relation is correlational and not causal, but that does not matter to me because it has worked for me until now and I enjoy the fruits of it. The use of the concept “cause” in ordinary or scientific language is merely a convenience for describing the phenomenon in which one occurrence is correlated with another occurrence.
On the other hand, I understand that acting in this way sounds like causal thinking in disguise, but then doesn’t that prove that causal thinking falls under the principle of falsification?
I can’t formulate the question precisely enough, but I am trying to say that if this behavior indicates causal thinking, then the very success of behavior that can only be explained as behavior based on causality and not on correlation already places it on the empirical plane and not in the sphere of a priori claims.
I assume I misunderstood something; I would be very happy for an explanation.
Thank you very much

Michi (2023-09-05)

That is Hume’s claim: that causality exists only in our own consciousness and not in the world. I disagree, but what does that have to do with our discussion? Still, the assumption that there is correlation even if not causality is a priori (if only because you are using induction from the past to the future). For our purposes it makes no difference.

Gilad Hornik (2023-09-10)

Perhaps one can still say something in favor of pragmatism from quantum mechanics. Since we arrive at a theory whose metaphysical conclusions some of us are unable to accept (“two realities,” “the influence of the future on the past,” “the intervention of consciousness in reality”), we are basically saying that at least at this stage rationalism is limited. On the one hand, we used rationalism to arrive at quantum mechanics (“causality,” “induction,” etc.). On the other hand, we are unable to accept a consistent rationalist picture when we combine rationalism with the empirical results. The conclusion is a recognition of the limits of rationalism regarding certain fields of metaphysics.

Michi (2023-09-19)

Yes

Yedai (2024-11-27)

Aviv Franko argued about your claim that from our world we infer that it is impossible for complex things to have arisen on their own, and he answered you that you are inferring from present reality to a reality we do not know, and that is a mistake—and you did not agree with him.

Seemingly, the Rambam in The Guide for the Perplexed argues like Aviv, when the Rambam does not agree with Plato’s view that there is primordial matter, because Plato does not believe in creation ex nihilo, since that is among the impossibilities even for the Creator. So the Rambam, who agrees with the principle of impossibility on the one hand, but believes in creation ex nihilo on the other, explains in Part II, chapter 17, and chapter 30, that one cannot infer from present reality, in which there is no creation ex nihilo (and creation ex nihilo seems among the impossibilities for the Creator), to the reality before creation.
Seemingly this is exactly what Aviv is arguing?

Michi (2024-11-27)

I do not deal with The Guide for the Perplexed, and even if he writes like Aviv, that does not really matter to me. Something slightly different emerges from your words. He is discussing God’s policy—whether impossibilities bind Him or not. But as stated, the discussion of the Rambam’s view is not really interesting from my perspective.

Yedai (2024-11-27)

So how do you answer Plato’s claim that creation ex nihilo cannot be, because it is impossible for him just like the other logical contradictions?

Michi (2024-11-27)

That it is not logically impossible.

Yedai (2024-11-27)

Is it basically possible also to argue, regarding Plato, who believes in a Creator of the world, that this itself is a logical impossibility—a creator without a creator?
(In any case, it is easier to digest than creation ex nihilo by some particular being, namely, a “creator”)?

Yedai (2024-11-30)

You wrote at the end of the article:
“It is easier to see this in the following way. One cannot define mathematically the reverse process in which one begins walking rightward from minus infinity, and then after an infinite amount of time reaches the origin. This is a mathematically undefined process, because its definition contains a point that is undefined (and does not exist). Think, for example, how you would calculate the time it takes our walker to reach the point X = minus 1000 km, or X = minus 253,451,997,2340 km. So it is with every point on that path. Our walker will never reach any point on that path, which means there is no path here (a path is defined as a function X(t) that gives me a position as a function of every point in time).[1] By contrast, the process of walking leftward is well defined; it just has no end. The process of walking rightward from minus infinity is not defined at all because it cannot begin. Therefore, an explanation in the form of an infinite chain is not an explanation. But this is not the place to expand on it further.
[1] Incidentally, this is the mistake of the author of Duties of the Heart (Gate of Unity) and other ancient philosophers, who brought proof against the notion of the world’s eternity from the fact that if the world were eternal then we would never arrive at our own day.”

I did not understand why the words of Duties of the Heart are a mistake. If the past really is infinite, then truly there should not be a present—and here we are. So that means the past is not infinite?

I would appreciate an explanation

Yedai (2024-12-01)

Rabbi Michi, why am I not worthy of an answer? Is the question out of place?
Believe me, before I troubled you I asked quite a few people, and they did not know how to answer.

Michi (2024-12-01)

You are repeating the argument of Duties of the Heart, and I explained היטב why he is mistaken. You did not write what is unclear to you in my explanation. Do you expect me to repeat it again?

Yedai (2024-12-01)

I am not exactly repeating it, but presenting the question differently, namely: so what if walking rightward/forward is defined (or what you called defined), but in practice it is infinite? So when I look now, in the present, backward at the past, then with the understanding that the past is infinite, there should not be the present that I am in, because the past should not end—it is infinite. Yet I am indeed in it, which proves that the past is not infinite, but rather there was a beginning to creation.

Please explain to me where my mistake and misunderstanding are.
(By the way, I also heard this claim from your student Yonatan the Deist in a debate he held against Teacher Laveh.)

Michi (2024-12-01)

I do not know who this supposed student of mine is. I did not have the privilege of knowing him.
You are repeating the argument exactly. Precisely. I explained what is wrong there.

Yedai (2024-12-02)

What you answered there, that this thing is possible, by means of a model in which each link in the causal chain lasts half the time of the one that comes after it—

So if I understand that you mean that an infinite past is possible in such a way that each point backward in time is less than the next point, as if our time now is not exactly the time that came before it—and of course this cannot be measured because it is minute on the level of infinity—is that correct?

But in any case, this model, like in the arrow paradox, is basically the sum of an infinite series that can converge to a finite result, and if it converges to a finite result, that is, it is bounded by a starting point and an ending point (like the arrow), then again this is a world that was created at some point. QED. Am I correct again?

If not, then only if you feel like explaining at a level that even someone who is not a doctor of physics can understand, if that is possible at all.

Bahya ibn Paquda (2024-12-02)

Okay, I understand.
I am apparently not worthy enough of a response.
So I turn to you in the name of the author of Duties of the Heart, whose words you rejected?

Michi (2024-12-02)

Today I was not near a computer. I did not answer at all. Later I will try to respond, perhaps tomorrow.

Michi (2024-12-02)

An infinite past is not possible. This sum is finite, except that it is described in infinitely many steps. The solution to the arrow paradox has nothing to do with an infinite series.

spooky9bbe460711 (2024-12-04)

This is Yonatan the Deist whom I mentioned above (who, thanks to you, left atheism)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgSe_ImL0D0

spooky9bbe460711 (2024-12-04)

Okay, thank you for responding, but allow me to reply, and I will speak only this once.
A—This is exactly what I am arguing: that if an infinite past is impossible, it follows that the world was created at some point, QED.

B—By the way, the “paradox” is not only with the arrow; it is with any object, since you can divide it into infinitely many halves and halves of halves—what you call infinitely many steps. But as stated, it has a starting point and an ending point, that is, creation.
And perhaps I would call it the infinity in space.
And from here I wanted to move to a third point as follows, and I would be glad if you would express your view about this understanding.

C—There is a difference between infinity in time and infinity in space. If infinity in time is something that according to reason cancels the concepts of past, present, and future as above, then with infinity in space, seemingly we must admit it, because our familiar world is limited in space and nevertheless exists within infinity, that is, beyond space. For does the world, the universe, have an end? And if we take one more step… So even if the world was created at some point, before that there was only He, the Creator, who is the place of the world even now. That is, the paradox of space that exists within “beyond space.” That walking left is undefined and right is defined belongs only to concepts of space, not to concepts of time, because in space “left” is before it was created and “right” is all the infinite expanse before us—
unless we say that space too has an end, only that the Creator made it so vast that we have no chance with any instrument in the world to reach it ever, and perhaps it is really continuing to expand.

D—It should be noted that a proof of creation by a Creator from the concept of time (Duties of the Heart) would not help against pantheism, because one could essentially answer that indeed our world, with the time in it, was created at some point, but before it there was already something eternal above time and space, from which our world developed—as in pantheism, where God is nature, is the world, and is infinite in space, but in time, since the creation of the world, is limited in time.

Michi (2024-12-04)

I understand that “only this once” is in the sense used by Abraham our father.
You are dealing with topics about which you lack basic understanding, and it is hard to give you a course in mathematics here. You are not even able to formulate the questions because the concepts are so unclear to you. I will try to explain one more time, and with this I will finish.

A—An infinite past is indeed possible, except that infinity is not an absolute magnitude like some number (one thousand, three, or a billion) but a potential limit. Therefore it is incorrect to conclude from this that the world was created at some point. The meaning of infinity is precisely that it was never created. It was always here.

B—You can divide any object into infinitely many parts. So what? How did you get here to the starting point of something? What does this have to do with our question?

C—Here I have nothing to say. This is a jumble of words without any meaning. I see no connection between one sentence and the next.

D—Pantheism is a contentless concept, and you can load into it whatever you want. But here you are dealing with a proof of creation by a Creator from the concept of time (Duties of the Heart), and there is no such thing, so there is no point in discussing it.

spooky9bbe460711 (2024-12-04)

Okay, thanks.

Grant me my soul with my question, which was not understood, and this will be the last time (in the model of an infinite chain…)

A—I think you did not understand my argument. I argued the opposite: an infinite past proves against the creation of the world, but since the past is not infinite, because here we are in the present, then yes, there is proof of the creation of the world.

B—That is just another example of the arrow paradox.

C—So what is your opinion about the infinity of space? Contribute and toss us a few words about this matter. It does not seem to fit with reason. Try a little to understand also those who do not know how to formulate themselves like philosophers, for I am heavy of mouth and heavy of tongue.

Please be a bit more generous in judging your fellow.

Michi (2024-12-04)

A—That is exactly what I understood, and that is what I answered.
I have no way to explain this at so profound a level of misunderstanding.

spooky9bbe460711 (2024-12-04)

Thank you (not that I understood).
In debates and articles you are very clear.
For some reason in the comments, it seems that the questioner does not quite understand your words, perhaps because of their brevity.

Michi (2024-12-04)

I don’t think it is a matter of brevity. It is unpleasant for me to say, but this is such a basic lack of understanding that courses are required for it. What you heard in the debates was probably material with regard to which your condition was better.

spooky9bbe460711 (2024-12-05)

Okay.
A—I enrolled today in a philosophy course (free online), but in any case, what is meant by the “potential limit” that you wrote, by means of which the concepts of past, present, and future are understandable in terms of infinity?

B—Also, if you would kindly explain to me something that makes no sense to reason:
If the universe is finite, what does that mean? If we were to take one more step beyond its boundary, what would happen?
And if the universe is not finite, is that something graspable by reason—that space would not be finite? Isn’t that some kind of contradiction? In any case, if you can explain?

Michi (2024-12-05)

A. That is always good. But I should note that philosophy has many fields, and the topics you dealt with here actually belong more to mathematics than to philosophy.
B. You assume that the universe is bounded by something that separates it from what is outside it. But here we are speaking of a different kind of limitation, an inherent one. The universe has finite volume, but it may still be that outside it there is nothing. Notice—not that there is no object there, but that there is no space there. It has no “outside” at all. One must understand that the limitation of the universe is a limitation of space itself, not a limitation of something within space.
I saw here that there is a video that might help (I haven’t watched it): https://davidson.weizmann.ac.il/online/maagarmada/astrophysics/%D7%9C%D7%90%D7%9F-%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%A4%D7%A9%D7%98-%D7%94%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%9D
In physics or mathematics, a distinction is made between finite and bounded. Think of the surface of a sphere. You walk on the surface and never reach an edge. So it is not bounded. But it is finite.

spooky9bbe460711 (2024-12-08)

Many thanks for your kindness.

A—Fine, I also enrolled in a mathematics course on that site.
Even so, I did not manage to arrive at what is said by our sages—to look at His creation and marvel at His power, etc.—because from the way I was raised (by the kindergarten teacher), this is all nothing for Him, may He be blessed; after all, He is omnipotent. And only after I drew close to your great and rational light did I understand that it is not at all certain that He is omnipotent (especially since it is not at all certain that there is such a concept as omnipotence; it is just nonsense), and quite literally, “Ascribe strength to God,” and “In all their troubles, He was troubled” (if of course He is with us, from Nachshon Wachsman and even before that).

In any case, דווקא now, after I reflected on what is above, what is below, what is before, and what is behind, I am able to understand His power, may He be blessed. I concluded and said: it would have been better for me had I not been created than having been created, and it would have been fitting for me not to have come into the world.

B—So until now I thought there were two things: one infinite and one finite. One I understood that I do not understand (the infinite), and now you have added pain upon our pain and thrown salt on our wounds. We are still distressed over the first things, and now you come and add also the latter. Did not the ancients decree and say, “Let us not add to it”? But with your permission I will not elaborate; I will only ask: what is the meaning of your words—and this is your holy expression—“the universe has finite volume, but it may still be that outside it there is nothing. Notice—not that there is no object there, but that there is no space there. It has no ‘outside’ at all.” Thus your golden words.

What is the meaning of “it may be that outside it there is nothing”? What does that mean? What would happen if an object wanted to move in that direction? (Would someone tell it: what are you going to do there? There is no exit?)

And what is the meaning of your further words, “you walk on the surface of a sphere”? Again—what would happen if I wanted to move upward? Would my head strike nothing or non-thing?

Are your words, Rabbi, not what you taught us to call “nonsense” (a miracle within a miracle, or an oxymoron in Aramaic)? And is this the lowest level you could descend to in order to explain to us little ones (and what would happen if you took one more step beyond the boundary…)?

As for that video you brought me, of course I thank you for your kindness, but it does not bring healing to my wound, and perhaps had you seen it you would not have sent it.

Michi (2024-12-08)

I explained this. Space itself is limited, not something within space. And from this it follows that there is no such thing as moving farther. There is no “farther” to move to.
When I gave you the example of a spherical surface, I was speaking about a two-dimensional creature. It does not see the third dimension at all, and therefore it cannot ask what would happen if it moved upward (perpendicular to the surface).
Let me sharpen the issue for you. You expect an explanation that will help you visualize these things. But that is exactly the point: in these claims one must not use visual imagination. This is a definition that we grasp only formally. Think of a four-dimensional universe. There is no mathematical problem in defining it, but we have no way to visualize it (one can make use of the transition from two to three dimensions and try to understand how the next transition to four might be possible. This is the book Flatland). Our visuality is limited to the tools of visual perception (three dimensions, etc.). And of this it was said, “A sage is preferable to a prophet,” meaning that intellectual apprehension is preferable to visual apprehension (see the Maharal’s introduction to Gevurot Hashem). Thus, for example, 2+3=5 in all worlds, however abstract they may be. Even if you cannot visually grasp what happens there, the mathematical and logical principles will still hold there.

spooky9bbe460711 (2024-12-12)

You thought too highly of me if you expected me to understand all that from the previous comment.
In any case, in the previous comment you gave the example of a person walking on the surface of a sphere. Presumably you gave specifically a sphere, because with something flat it would not apply. Yet here, from your last comment, it seems that this explanation would also apply to something flat. How so?

Michi (2024-12-12)

A sphere is easier to visualize, but it does not have to be a sphere. I think we have exhausted what can be done here.

Lior (2025-04-15)

Good evening. I could not understand how the rabbi does not reject the claim that the universe always existed. After all, we know this is not true. I tend to agree with the claim that if the world had existed for an infinite amount of time, we would not have reached this moment. Can you explain to me why I am mistaken?

Michi (2025-04-16)

I did not understand your first question.
Your second claim is mistaken, and I will try to explain it briefly. Think of Hilbert’s hotel, which has infinitely many rooms arranged in numerical order: room 1, 2, 3, 4… to infinity. Suppose they are all occupied. Now a person arrives and wants to enter one of the rooms. I add one room at the side and ask the tenant in room 1 to move into it. The tenant in room 2 moves to room 1, the tenant in room 3 moves to room 2, and so on. Do you think that in the end an empty room will remain?
From another angle: can I ask the tenant in room infinity to move one room to the left? What is the number of the room on the left? What is to the right of room infinity? Isn’t it the last one? If it is the last one, then the chain has an end.
Now think of a chain of rooms that starts from minus infinity up to minus 1. Can one put a tenant in room minus infinity, or start a transfer process from there rightward? Certainly not.
The meaning is that infinity is not a number like all the other numbers. Infinity signifies endless continuation. Hence there is no specific room whose number is infinity; rather, there are rooms all the time without end.
This is true of a discrete chain of rooms, and equally so of a continuous axis of positions like the axis of time or space. There is no point in time whose coordinate is minus infinity from which one can start any process.
Now you can understand that one cannot speak of a process that begins at minus infinity and advances rightward along the time axis. There is no such starting point. Your sentence, which speaks of a process beginning at minus infinity and asks when it will reach us, is nonsense wrapped in what only appears to be meaningful language.

Uri (2025-10-10)

Thank you very much for the article 🙏.
1. Is there some response by Aviv to the article that you know of?
Some kind of continuation of the discussion..
2. Would you continue the debate with him about God?
Or do you think that you disagree over empiricism and rationalism and there is no reason to keep arguing.. ?

Uri (2025-10-10)

Thank you very much for the article🙏
1. Is there some response from Aviv to the article, as far as you know?
2. Would you continue the debate with him?
Or do you disagree on the issue of the empirical versus the a priori regarding facts about the world..

Michi (2025-10-10)

1. I have no idea.
2. I do not see much value in it.

Leave a Reply

Back to top button