On Theology and Sociopathy (Column 677)
Sorry to return once more to the same hackneyed point, but it really annoys me every single time. These days draw a lot of anger out of me and sharpen old points.
Rogel Alpher
A few weeks ago I saw a post by Rogel Alpher (my interlocutor from this debate), who—as is his way—vulgarly lays into believers and into God. But on second thought, to my great embarrassment I found myself agreeing with every word of his, except for the conclusion. First I’ll bring it here in full, so that you too can enjoy:
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Are missiles falling? It’s all because of the settlement of Moreshet A direct hit on a house in Moreshet A house hit by a rocket in Moreshet. “We need to do some soul-searching,” confessed the settlement’s spokeswoman, “and thank the Holy One, blessed be He, and improve our deeds some more, and thank some more. And more.” The settlement of Moreshet is to blame for Hezbollah’s missile attack on Sunday morning. Its residents’ wayward behavior brought it upon them. Exactly like Sodom and Gomorrah. But God decided to spare them at the last moment, to give them a chance. “We had a great miracle,” declared Orit Spitz, spokeswoman for the settlement located near “Rafael,” in an interview on Channel 14. “A great miracle,” she repeated and emphasized. “The damage here is enormous. Two 100-kilo missiles fell; enormous damage was caused to houses, to cars, to roads. But thank God… there are no casualties; everyone is fine.” Above her head, in the upper left corner of the screen, was the channel’s motto since the October 7 massacre: “With God’s help, together we will win.” Spitz expressed thinking typical of the fundamentalist and mass religious cult that has grown here, convinced that the settlement of Moreshet is located at the center of the universe. But why did God, the omnipotent, responsible for everything that happens to the residents of Moreshet, send via Hezbollah two heavy missiles toward them that merely frightened them and caused “enormous damage to houses, to cars, to roads”? Worthy of an investigation on “Uvda.” And if not on “Uvda,” then at least in Moreshet. “We already thought this morning about how the community will sit down or hold some kind of soul-searching, some kind of thanksgiving meal, something, some kind of rectification in the community,” explained Spitz. It wasn’t Nasrallah who decided to launch missiles that accidentally hit Moreshet. God decided to launch the missiles toward Moreshet so that its residents would do soul-searching and rectification. And perhaps even a “thanksgiving meal.” This is a meal in which the residents thank God for having launched two missiles at them to call them to order because they did what was evil in His eyes, yet He spared their lives, out of faith that they will internalize the message and mend their ways. This God is a violent, sadistic psychopath. According to the cult’s belief, Nasrallah is not Israel’s enemy, since he is only carrying out the will of the God of Israel, the omnipotent. God is the “enemy,” who is nothing but a cruel lover. In fact, there is no Arab or Iranian enemy. There is only God. “We need to do some soul-searching,” Spitz confessed, “and thank the Holy One, blessed be He, and improve our deeds some more, and thank some more. And more.” The cult members in Moreshet intend to thank God for the missiles. Blessed is He who brings missiles out of the land of Lebanon. “What empowering statements,” the studio host enthused, and recalled that “this settlement took a blow already at the beginning of the week, when they lost Captain Daniel Maimon, age 23, who fell in Rafah.” Spitz also referred to this, emphasizing that rectification in the community is required following “two difficult events within one week.” For Maimon, the sadistic, bloodthirsty God did not have mercy. And the settlement is preparing for a thanksgiving meal. Maimon also died because that is the will of God, as part of the re-education series He is giving to Moreshet. “Really salute them for these clear statements and this resilience,” the host praised. When the fighting intensifies, the statement empowers. Religious fundamentalists celebrate their dead saints on both sides of the Israel–Lebanon border. War as a theological event, not a military-strategic one. I, who only yesterday ate a ham and gouda sandwich and publicly say that God is a sociopath, am not required to do any rectification or thanksgiving. And for now God isn’t trying to kill me with missiles. But if He does try, I will immediately know whom to blame: the sinful residents of Moreshet. Because of them I too will have to die. |
I assume some of you got really angry reading this. So take a deep breath, and now try to think about it again. What exactly is wrong in what he wrote?
Dividing the tasks and the thank-yous
A common phenomenon in our circles is that we excitedly thank God for every salvation, but forget to blame Him for the trouble from which we were saved. We thank Him for coming out safely from a car accident, but don’t really blame Him for the accident itself. Regarding the accident—this is human responsibility; regarding the outcome—at least if it’s positive—that’s God. If it’s negative, then either it’s not God, or who can know His ways. The punctilious will say that everything is for the best and that a person must bless for the bad just as he blesses for the good. From now on, please recite Birkat HaGomel after you have died in a car accident.
All sorts of characters point to the miracles that befell us and our forefathers in the Iron Swords War, such as the renowned theologian Aryeh Deri. He declares without batting an eyelid (I’m copying the subheadline):
The Shas chairman broke a long silence, in an interview to the Shas house organ, and said on the anniversary of the war that “if we had faith that everything is for the best, today we are also beginning to understand it.” He explained the importance of promoting the draft-exemption law: “Every day of learning prevents days of battle.”
Or another exemplary sentence:
We are beginning to understand the magnitude of the miracles and wonders of this difficult year.
You don’t know whether to laugh or cry at this sociopathic detachment. Only now does Deri begin to understand the wondrous miracles that brought about the deaths, rapes, kidnappings—in fact the slaughter—of thousands of Israelis: soldiers, women, the elderly, and children. The wondrous miracle of the Holocaust that happened to us.
Dov Halbertal wrote about this beautifully:
| I have no doubt that Deri, the fundamentalist, would also see the Holocaust as a miracle. Because many more than 6,000,000 Jews could have been killed. Many more. The gas chambers—also a miracle. Because death there could have taken much longer. And the concentration camps? An even greater miracle. Because the fact that American Jews weren’t in the extermination camps—is that not a miracle?
And since there is no limit to Deri’s obtuseness—and his boot-lickers, the ministers and MKs in Shas—while soldiers fall to protect his pointless life, he speaks about not drafting yeshiva students. If I had to focus on the truly great miracle—and I say honestly, I can’t understand it—it’s how secular soldiers are willing to enlist, willing to be blinded, lose limbs, be bereaved, be buried in military cemeteries, when they hear words of arrogance and moral abysses like Deri’s. The miracle is how secular people are willing to die so that Deri can bathe in his jacuzzi, and his sons and grandsons and great-grandsons won’t serve in the army, and his Chief Rabbi will send all the Haredim abroad. The reality that there is a single secular soldier who is willing to enlist is a miracle even greater than the miracle of the Holocaust. |
Although this provocateur usually annoys me, this time he took the words right out of my mouth.
Indeed, for Deri and his colleagues a miracle occurred which, in my view, makes the Exodus and the splitting of the sea pale in comparison. True, thousands of Israelis are dead, kidnapped, suffering, and groaning—but as far as the Haredim are concerned, that happens in Africa too. What does that have to do with them? Their lives go on entirely as usual. Not a dog sharpened its tongue at the Haredim. There no one died, no one was kidnapped, there are no bereaved families, no reservist families with hundreds of reserve days a year (yes, yes, I know there are two Haredim who do serve in “Shachar Kachol,” and, oh yes, there’s also ZAKA), and the budgets keep flowing. The situation has never been better. Strawberries and cream.
Moreover, along with all this, the suckers (that is, all of us) allow him and the rest of the lowlifes with him to continue cynically exploiting all of us as never before, led by their rabbis, “greats,” and politicians—with the marvelous cooperation of the “Religious Zionism” party. I don’t know whether they and their leaders are more detached from their Zionism or from their religiosity. Meanwhile, of course, the Haredim don’t stop whining about persecution, forced conversion, and hatred of Haredim. They continue at full throttle to rob the public coffers, which themselves are suffering because of the situation, and in parallel work to pass the Rabbis Law (the “jobs law”) A, B, or C; the evasion laws (euphemistically: the Draft Law); the corruption of the Chief Rabbinate (or whatever remains there to corrupt—not much), the daycare law, and the rest of the Haredi robbery and parasitism laws. All this is being done while they themselves sit in a government that extends compulsory service and reserve duty, increases the tax burden on the public, and of course is the one assigning military tasks to the soldiers and to the families who send them to their deaths. But again, none of this, of course, pertains to them. The soldiers and the general public, to them, are foreign workers. In their feeling, all this is happening in Africa—what’s it got to do with them?! Right now, Yoav Ben-Tzur, may he live long, the Minister of Labor (for the non-Haredim) and Welfare (for the Haredim), is freezing daycare subsidies for everyone—including reservists, of course—since the law doesn’t allow him to rob the public till and funnel daycare subsidies to kollel students so they can continue shirking. So from his perspective, let everyone die in the army and let their families pay thousands of shekels they don’t have, until he can resume the plunder at leisure. Some shoot and cry, and some send them to die and then sit on their backs and rob them (see the cartoon in Column 655).
This is in fact an accurate description of the personality disorder called “sociopathy,” nowadays referred to as “Antisocial Personality Disorder.” In Wikipedia it is described thus:
Antisocial personality disorder (inEnglish: Antisocial Personality Disorder; inabbreviation ASPD) is apersonality disorder characterized by persistent patterns ofbehavior lackingempathy, impulsivity, violation of social norms, and aggressive behavior. The disorder is classified and diagnosed by the American Psychiatric Association (DSM) in Cluster B personality disorders, and also appears in the International Classification of Diseases (ICD) as Dissocial Personality Disorder.
In our case this is a diagnosis of public conduct and not necessarily of individuals (though some Haredi representatives clearly display these traits). Haredi society conducts itself sociopathically—straight out of the textbook. How does this malicious cynicism not cause people to take up arms in the streets, or at least refuse orders and not enlist?! To me that’s a greater miracle than what the maidservant saw at the sea. As the saying goes: Deri was right. Completely.
The nexus of sociopathy and theology
Why do I connect Haredi sociopathic parasitism and wickedness to the delusional theology I opened with? Because in my estimation these are two aspects of the same thing: detachment from common sense, from morality, and from the world around them. By their ideology the Haredim live in Noah’s Ark, and all the floodwaters outside that carry them on their palms and backs do not touch them. From their perspective, it’s happening in Africa. In their view, right now the verse “nations shall pasture your flocks” is being fulfilled upon them. The days of the Messiah have arrived, when the whole world works and supports them so they can continue in their crooked ways. Only advanced autism or a collective sociopathy such as exists in Haredi society can lead to such an egregious injustice and to obtuseness and cynicism unmatched by the worst of humankind. The Haredi, delusional ideology and theology, which sees everything that happens as the work of God and human beings as extras whose purpose is to ignore the world and all that is in it, leads to sociopathy. And yes, I know there are nice and good Haredim, and there are charitable enterprises, and various other things. That pertains to individuals. Haredi society as a collective is a distorted, parasitic, evil, and detached society—downright sociopathic. Truly inconceivable.
If you want a clear expression of the link between this sociopathic detachment and theology, here is an example. As is known, Goldknopf declared in the sukkah of Malchieli of Shas (if you ever wondered what a “band of wicked men” is) that we have a big bowl and everyone takes what he can. I am sure it never even occurred to him that anyone would be angered by such smug, detached—in fact sociopathic—words. Why would it occur to him? He lives, miraculously, in Noah’s Ark. What, has anyone here died? Is anyone here working to fill the bowl? Who performs the wondrous miracle of the bowl? Ah, that’s God, of course (thanks to the Rebbe of Gur, the head of his cult). None of this is related to him or to others who pay heavy prices for it. Everything is puppeteered from above. Behold sociopathic wickedness grounded in theology.
Leli Deri (a bereaved mother from the current war) wrote about this beautifully:
Who fills the bowl and what is it filled with? It is filled with the blood of my son and of hundreds who were killed, with the tears of my daughter-in-law and of so many widows and orphans, with the worries of parents who send one child, two, three—and you cannot just take. It’s not moral, it’s not Jewish, it’s not Torah-true.
It’s easy to miss the theological aspect. He truly doesn’t think there’s anyone here in this world who fills the bowl. To him it has simply been there since the six days of Creation. It’s here, and we’ll all take as much as we want and can, and of course we’ll thank God for His great goodness and for His daily miracles with us.
None of this, of course, stops him from carefully helping himself from the bowl. That part he doesn’t leave to God, nor to an angel or a seraph. God is responsible only for filling the bowl. Goldknopf is responsible for emptying it. He lives in his theological La-La-Land (what, there’s a housing crisis in Israel? As per Goldknopf’s famous bon mot upon being appointed Housing Minister, no less…), and this theology yields sociopathic and detached conduct. Haredi ideology sees the world as a kind of test for us, examining how much we manage to live detached from it and to think in a delusional and non-realistic manner even though it’s clearly nonsense. It’s all a test from God for the residents of the Haredi Noah’s Ark.
It’s important to understand that this theological thinking runs all the religious parties in Israel today—from their rabbis and “greats” to their politicians. Among the Haredi parties and rabbis it is entirely le-chatchila (by design), whereas in the Religious-Zionist parties, Ben-Gvir and Avi Maoz are ostensibly only assisting them (as the verse says: “and their helpers”). When it comes to shouldering the burden, they are not truly partners—only helping from the outside. But it is hard to break free from the theological link. After all, they share in the sociopathic theology that everything is in God’s hands and we are marionettes. Except that in their eccentric opinion, marionettes are required to be active (akin to the known Protestant paradox). This is an important point: sociopathically there seems to be a difference between Haredim and Hardalim (religious-nationalist Haredim), but when you look through theological lenses you discover a broader and more worrying picture. It isn’t just a political conjuncture. There is a theological root to the cooperation between these two groups.
A note on sociopathy and growing up
As is known, children don’t understand that resources are not unlimited, and that one must weigh costs and benefits at every step. The fact that tasks and goals must be allocated and that one thing comes at the expense of another is foreign to them. Children simply take what they can, and if they aren’t given, they get angry. After all, Mom and Dad can give them whatever they want, so if they don’t, they’re just mean and hate us. Children live in a sociopathic La-La-Land—but that is part of their necessary maturation process. The responsible adult’s role is to accompany them and ensure that this disappears with maturity. Among the Haredim this doesn’t happen. They got stuck in the sociopathy of childhood and never left it. Rabbi Tamir Granot, head of the Orot Shaul Hesder Yeshiva, a bereaved father and activist for drafting Haredim, said in a newspaper interview that he spoke with a very prominent Lithuanian-Haredi rabbi who told him that Haredi society are children in a kindergarten who conduct themselves childishly, and they need someone from the outside to save them from themselves (that rabbi, of course, will never dare say this out loud. And that’s part of the problem).
Note also that those among the Haredim who admit that the issues of conscription and sharing the burden are a problem—early and encouraging signs from a small Haredi minority—at the very same time expect the army to prepare itself and society to get properly ready for their coming, with God’s help, as heroes. They’re doing us a favor, and it’s conditional on our doing everything for them according to their demands, so that Heaven forbid they pay no price. It doesn’t matter that none of them shows the first signs of involvement or willingness to come beyond empty declarations. On the contrary, some of their leaders honestly proclaim that no Haredi will serve—even those who don’t study. In their view, even at the declarative level, the “adults” are the ones who must do everything so that the child will condescend to do something too. It never occurs to them that the task of preparing the army and the service frameworks for their arrival is first and foremost their task (especially since they are now in the government). The obligation to enlist is everyone’s; if they want special conditions, they should say thank you that people are willing to grant them—but at least let them take part in the matter. A child cannot understand such a thing. And a sociopathic adult can perhaps understand, but doesn’t really want to. Moreover, the army at present is not exactly eager for this, since everyone understands that even after all the preparations, very few, if any, will actually come to enlist, and even if they do, their contribution will be negligible (Haredi service today is mainly convenient vocational training for them, with a nice salary for the family). Who has the motivation to make such sweeping preparations that disrupt the entire military system, for a population for whom this is merely an excuse not to shoulder the burden, and that in all likelihood will not show up in the end.
Back to theology: is this only Deri’s theology?
Note that the writer of the passage above is Dov Halbertal and not Moshe (I saw someone attribute it to Moshe Halbertal). He is the Haredi “dos,” not his “Reform” brother. It seems he too understands there is no room for those hollow slogans about divine goodness and the miracles that happen to us day by day.
In my estimation there are many others who understand that you can’t say such nonsense out loud, but still in their hearts feel bound to these “principles of faith”: recognizing God’s goodness and His daily miracles for us. Many who see disasters (like the Holocaust?) as expressions of God’s goodness—since in their view everything is from above, but as is known no evil descends from above. Conclusion: there is no evil in the world at all. QED. Who can argue with such a syllogism?!
I don’t think Deri is truly exceptional in these deranged ideas. It cannot be denied that this is the prevailing mode of thought in religious circles of various hues. Which of us has not wondered why God took a relative in an accident, or thanked God for the “miracle” of recovery from an illness (but did not wonder about His role in the very creation of the illness), and the like. Except that unlike Deri, others whose heads are a little less full of what Deri’s head is full of—and who nonetheless understand there is also a surrounding society that bears the burden and suffers—have a bit more tact regarding what they say in public in such sensitive days (as a reminder, inside Noah’s Ark nothing at all is happening). But I think few dare to question this theological dogma itself (that everything is from God). Few are willing to admit that you cannot selectively assign events to Providence only when it suits you. If He does everything, then He also does the troubles and not just the salvations. Complaints should be directed to Him too, and not only thank-yous. If He is responsible for everything then truly nothing depends on us, and soldiers died because they had to die, and those who were saved were saved because they had to be saved. So who says the Nation-State Law was legislated against the Druze?! The dominant theology in Israel today is Druze fatalism. From Halbertal’s words it becomes clear that there are still “dosim” who—even if they’re somewhat eccentric—have not entirely lost the image of God that is logical and consistent thinking.
What about God’s goodness?
You’re surely wondering: fine, so what do you propose? After all, you too believe in God’s goodness (I’ve been asked about this more than once here on the site). How does that square with our present situation? I’ll briefly say a few things.
First, even if I believe something, I don’t tend to ignore facts that contradict it. Either I find a resolution, or I forgo the belief, or at least I leave it as a question. I certainly don’t present imaginary delusions as if they were facts, while ignoring many facts that contradict them, just to support that belief. I don’t refer to the Holocaust as a miracle and salvation from God, nor to the last year. I definitely try to let the facts get in my way from time to time.
Second, since I do indeed believe in God’s goodness, my conclusion is that He is apparently not involved in everything that happens here (at least in most cases—there is no ongoing involvement). I don’t attribute to Him either the good or the “more-good,” and I certainly don’t split hairs and make selective divisions of events—what is from Him and what is not. There are philosophical and logical reasons for this (because there cannot be divine involvement within the framework of nature, and we are all familiar with the ongoing operation of nature—we know there are laws of nature. See, for example, Column 214, 547, and the references there). Because of the clearly sociopathic results, it is indeed important to revisit and examine their theological roots and to consider adopting a different stance.
All this does raise hard questions, since a lack of divine involvement still needs to be reconciled with the assumption of His goodness. If He sees people suffering, why does He not intervene? I offered a possible, even if imperfect, answer to these questions elsewhere, and I won’t go back over it all here. I also explained there that despite everything said here, troubles and salvations can serve as triggers for self-examination and for thanksgiving to God. Self-examination—because human nature is such that when troubles befall a person, he is more willing to examine his ways. It is indeed an opportunity for self-examination, but only on the psychological plane. It is unlikely that such self-examination will save us from anything. And the thanksgiving to God is not for concrete divine involvement that produced the events in question, since most likely there was no such involvement. The thanksgiving is because such events give us an opportunity to give thanks for the creation of the world and its laws, which enable us to function within it in a reasonable way.
Be that as it may, one can think of different answers and different interpretations of the principles of faith we’ve grown used to, and one can also re-examine them. But ignoring facts and painting them pink just so they fit our detached assumptions is not a proper path. It is Orwellian brainwashing: if you repeat a mantra often enough, no matter how delusional, it eventually sinks in (“Ignorance is strength, slavery is freedom…”). Nor does it express fear of Heaven and faith, but rather detachment and an unwillingness to think. Such fear of Heaven—commandments performed by rote—is worthless. Just as the Torah study of a society that conducts itself so sociopathically is worthless. A lack of gratitude to those who do the good deed is nothing but sociopathic conduct that cynically, smugly, and wickedly ignores the surrounding society. That is not an expression of serving God and recognizing His goodness, but of living a detached and immoral lie. Of this the prophet says: “Why do I need the multitude of your sacrifices?!”
Discussion
Every word is worth its weight in gold. I was wondering exactly this, and I’m curious what the rabbi thinks: maybe, strategically, the secular public (or the opposition camp) in Israel should move to the position of a persecuted minority and act accordingly. Instead of developing expectations of returning to power, they should demand autonomies with liberal space, exemption from IDF service for women and men (if the Haredim can get it, then so can those who keep the state afloat and fund everyone here, as a minority), register startups abroad, etc., etc. What do you think? Maybe there’s no choice… let the corrupt keep ruling, but let them pay a price.
That is exactly what the Kaplan protest tried to do.
It’s just that, as with revolutions that fall in love with themselves and keep radicalizing nonstop, they shot themselves in the head.
Aside from the fact that I wouldn’t say these things about Religious Zionism, everything is correct and precise.
It’s unclear why they hang all the troubles on the One enthroned on high.
As if it had not been made clear to us what would happen if we behaved one way and what would happen if we behaved another.
And then it was also illustrated to us throughout history.
And illustrated more than three or four times.
Both in the Bible and no less in documented history.
It’s possible you forgot that the Haredim succeed at this because they hold the balance of power.
And if the opposition were truly interested in bringing about Haredi conscription, they could build an agreement with the coalition whereby, on questions of the draft and budgets, they would always serve as a counterweight to Haredi demands and thus take the sting out of them.
But the opposition doesn’t have even a single milligram of concern for the public and its difficulties, and everything they do stems from hatred of the other side.
And it’s true that regarding Haredi conduct, they are completely right.
Not clear. Even in biblical times, when you do admit (one hopes?) His full involvement, still the way of the wicked sometimes prospered, there were diseases, and people thanked God for healing, etc. The cosmetic solution of “today He does not supervise” solves nothing; it only postpones the need to deal with it and turns the question into a historical one. Your difficulties are valid even for the time when, by your own account, there was providence.
You didn’t write what exactly you disagree with in Rogel Alpher’s conclusion.
Regarding the Religious Zionism party, I identify with your theological criticism, but on the practical level I think there is something to be said in their defense. Since, in their view and in the view of wise and good people, the alternative to the current government is the disastrous leftist defeatism, at this stage we need to hold on to this government with our teeth despite the sorrow and pain over Haredi insolence. Smotrich explains this well in an interview with Makor Rishon:
https://www.makorrishon.co.il/news/793705/
Personally, I would add that I think there should be an option for exemption from the draft on religious grounds for men as well. If someone thinks the army is religious persecution, I have no interest in him being in the army. Militarily he won’t help me; let him go to hell on his own. Better that he be released and instead of playing the whole yeshiva-study game, he should go work. Service deferment for yeshiva students should not be connected to these people at all. I have no interest in being a repressive Russia here, and in fact even for Russia compulsory conscription only harmed the army.
In my opinion, in the current situation there is definitely justification for refusal to serve, and certainly for moving money abroad. What is happening now is a cynical robbery of all of us. This is unrelated to the question of the motives of the Kaplan people, which in my opinion is being presented in a distorted way. Obviously they want to bring Bibi down, but equality also genuinely matters to them. Among other things, bringing Bibi down is meant to achieve that. So this propaganda as though nothing interests them except bringing down Bibi is demagogic nonsense. It is true that the desire to bring him down causes them to do a lot of foolish things, as I have written here more than once.
I’ve explained this many times. See columns on divine involvement in the world. When there is prophecy and someone can tell me what comes from the Holy One, blessed be He, and what does not, I’ll be willing to accept distinctions between event A and event B. Obviously even there I could criticize people’s attitudes. But not prophets, because they know.
In my opinion, that is not the only thing driving them. There are inferiority feelings there toward the Haredim, and they don’t really dare confront them. These inferiority feelings are justified, since they share their theology, and the Haredim are better than they are by almost every parameter according to their own definitions.
And the disagreement with Rogel Alpher’s conclusion?
In my opinion, you’re mistaken.
And again, one has to distinguish between the standard protester and the instigators of this protest.
At least until October 7, if the Haredim had broken up the right-wing bloc, they would have gotten some fake draft law with the enlistment of a few fringe boys and Chabadniks, and the entire media would have bent over backward to praise the new draft model through the full range of propaganda tools. After October 7 this definitely became harder, though I wouldn’t be surprised if, should the Haredim decide they’ve had enough and cut over to the other bloc, you’d see a campaign here designed to whitewash it with some fake draft model.
The left is so power-hungry that it will give them whatever they want and use every means to whitewash it.
I didn’t understand what the problem is with the statement about Moreshet.
Hezbollah terrorists, by their own free choice, decided to fire advanced missiles at Moreshet, and the missiles indeed hit and exploded.
Whereas statistically such a missile strike leads in 99% of cases to mass casualties (say), in Moreshet no one was even scratched, and that is a statistical miracle.
Why did God intervene דווקא in the strike on Moreshet and not in the launch? True, that is a question that needs to be considered.
Not eat shrimp. The argument does not say there is no God and no point in serving Him, but rather that events here should not be attributed to Him.
You yourself write that this was relevant before October 7. We are after it, in case you haven’t noticed. The draft law itself was Benny Gantz’s, who today opposes it. But anyone who wants to slander the left (like the right) will always find a reason.
Then consider it and come back to me with an answer.
It’s nice that you’re vomiting out Rabbi Michael’s stock expressions. There was nothing extreme about the protest against the current government. Police officers weren’t injured, there was no violence against Bibi-ist Neanderthals, there was no incitement to violence against politicians—nothing. The only people who shot the protest in the head were people like you and Rabbi Michael, who decided it wasn’t comfortable enough for your backs to join the protest.
It seems to me that this time you made life easy for yourself (and forgive me for using that turn of phrase in these deranged days…). You chose as a convenient springboard the words of someone who, in my opinion too, is the most wicked and cynical politician since the six days of creation—Aryeh Deri—in order to present us with a theology centered on the question: if we thank the Holy One, blessed be He, for a miracle, why do we not also resent the disaster He brought upon us on that same occasion? In my view, this question is deeper only than the childish question, “Can God create a stone He cannot lift?” I am not trying to refute the rest of your remarks and conclusions about the Haredi public, because fairness obligates me to admit that I have no good arguments for doing so.
But as stated, there is no indication whatsoever that the left has stopped its enormous hatred of the right (the hatred of Bibi is only a cover for this), and I am one hundred percent sure that if we surrender to this campaign, the government will fall and a left-Haredi-Arab government will rise in which not a single Haredi will be drafted and not a single shekel will be cut from their budgets and privileges. And I wholeheartedly believe that then you too will keep silent.
And see what Nadav Shnerb wrote just this week about it:
“In the past week I saw several posts on what one might call the ‘alliance of those who serve.’ The proponents of this idea, if I understand them correctly, feel that the events of October 7 and the ongoing war ought to create a new political situation. This argument seems to me to stand on two legs:
A. The old disputes that tore the public apart in this country have become less relevant. In particular, willingness to cede territory to the Arabs has, in their opinion, declined, which neutralizes the main issue over which we have been wrangling for over 50 years.
B. On the other hand, the war and the terrible burden it imposes on those who serve, their families, and the public in general have heightened awareness that there are groups (namely, the Haredim) who bear none of the burden at all.
The conclusion arising from these two points is the need for a systemic overhaul and a transition to politics whose main issue is equality in bearing the burden, or in simple words: drafting the Haredim. Hence also slogans such as ‘With me in the platoon—with me in the party,’ and the like.
I think that:
1. Those expressing this idea, or at least some of them, are dear and important Jews with worthy intentions.
2. I hope they succeed in realizing their plans; may God be with them.
3. There is no chance whatsoever for these ideas, and in the current circumstances it would be a great mistake to abandon the bird in hand (a right-wing government with all its serious shortcomings) for the national reconciliation on the tree, which I am sure will fly from the tree the moment they approach it.
It is hard for me to write these things. For decades I have been a veteran opponent of Haredi politics, with military service heading the list of accusations. I have spoken, written, and published these views many times, and have gotten into quite a few bitter arguments because of them. All along I argued (I’ll attach in the comments some references to posts), broadly speaking, that all Haredim are Satmar and the differences between them are only in their willingness to change for the sake of manners or money; that there is no chance whatsoever they will of their own accord take any step toward a fair sharing of the burdens of citizenship; and that all the reports on various aspects of Haredi integration into society are effectively fraud until proven otherwise. In an alternative world I would pat myself on the back, bask in the fact that so many people had reached the same conclusions, and loudly join the new equality-in-the-burden campaign. Unfortunately, the past two years have greatly changed my assessment of reality, and accordingly my views regarding the possible political alternatives.
Using the Haredi problem as a scarecrow, as a vote pump that commits one to nothing, has for decades been the most tired political trick in the country—the horse ridden by Raful (‘your ballot is their draft order’), Ehud Barak (‘draft everyone’), and of course Tommy and Yair Lapid. Each in turn milked the ‘just a few more seats’ from the angry public; each in turn blurred, botched, or ignored the problem after being elected and diverted the political power to areas that actually lay close to his heart.
The people of the ‘alliance of those who serve’ believe that this time the situation is different, that this time there is real change, real anger, real consensus, which will lead to real results. I disagree. In my opinion this is just another maneuver, an attempt by the foxes of the Kaplan protest to lure the enthusiastic religious-Zionist crow into opening its beak in order to break into songs of Jewish unity and drop the cheese of power at their feet. On the day they get what they want—the power, which is the sole goal of the maneuver—they will return with full vigor to dealing with the issues that really interest them (foremost among them: handing out various kinds of dumplings to Sinwar’s freedom fighters), and I have no doubt they will not lift a finger in order to draft even a single Haredi.
As with certain parts of the hostages campaign, here too there is an attempt to lure Bambi’s mother into a trap by playing the crying voice of her son: they are trying to recruit the deepest, sincerest, most justified emotions in order to make a gullible public willingly put its neck into the noose. We must not yield to these manipulations.
The left in this country, like any public, is not made of one skin. Still, we have seen that what one may call the ‘elite complex’—academics, doctors, senior military men, media stars, the rich—has enormous power. In the past two years they succeeded in making a mockery of the elected government and turning the government into a circus, and it may be said that the voters of Gantz, Lapid, and the like largely follow them.
Within these elite groups, post-Jewish and post-Zionist people carry decisive weight. I personally believe that most of them are incapable of defending the idea of a Jewish state in the Land of Israel within any borders, but even if I am wrong, there is no doubt that in their eyes the Arabs are morally entirely right at least regarding the ‘territories’ in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. The words that slide so easily down their throats—occupation, apartheid, war crimes, and the like—leave no room for doubt.
There is no reason to believe they would not support withdrawing from the territories the moment their power made it possible. After all, it is inconceivable that they would willingly continue what they themselves see as a regime of oppression, occupation, and apartheid. True, there is a security risk that they too recognize. True, some of their representatives joined the Knesset’s declarative resolution against a Palestinian state. Still—only a fool would rely on that. It is clear to any sane person that on the day the question is truly on the table they will improvise some excuse about changed circumstances and international pressures, or swap the Palestinian state for a demilitarized area under the auspices of UN battalions from Ghana and the like. Look at their horror at pro-Israel figures in the Trump administration; look at their hysteria and shock at the idea of renewing Jewish settlement in the Gaza Strip; look at their enthusiasm for releasing murderers of Jews from prison (sorry, freedom fighters), the astonishing campaigns they mount on the issue, and you will understand everything.
The same applies to drafting the Haredim. I am not at all sure the subject interests them beyond its potential for bashing (justifiably!) the right-wing government. After all, if you think about it, drafting the Haredim would bring the state many soldiers, much power, much more social cohesion. The Arab parties vote every time against drafting the Haredim for exactly this reason, because they oppose these goals. And Schocken? And the protest leaders? Do you think they think differently? These people who sign calls to stop the war, petitions to foreign countries to impose an arms embargo on Israel—elites, Israel Prize laureates, former attorneys general, professors—do you really believe it matters to them that there be more soldiers in Golani? Another maneuvering division?
There are still left-wing Zionists, among them people who are fighting and risking themselves at this very moment, and I absolutely understand the feelings of those who feel comradeship with fellow soldiers and volunteer brotherhood, but it is very hard to imagine these people going out, a year or two from now, against the spirit blowing from the academic ivory towers and the strongholds of the legal system. We saw no significant reservations of this kind in the past two years, and someone who went through fire and water after people who talk about an ‘unconstitutional constitutional amendment’ is a person who cannot be trusted in anything. In order for an alliance between us and them even to enter the realm of thought—an alliance for which we may pay a heavy price—these friends must first and foremost separate themselves from the tents of the wicked in the same way their teachers in the previous generation kicked out the people of P.K.P. and Maki. The ball is in their court, and we are not the ones who will make that decision for them.”
A. I didn’t understand why the question of suffering proves that God does not intervene in what happens. Since divine logic is beyond our understanding, it would seem there is probably a good purpose in causing (or not preventing) suffering. When trouble comes upon a person, he is supposed to understand that the purpose of the trouble is for good, even if he does not understand how, and when he is saved from it, he thanks God that the good is also pleasant. That is the conception expressed in the blessings “the true Judge” and “He who is good and does good.” It is a logical and consistent conception, and it is not clear to me why you reject it.
B. The statement that the trouble was relatively small compared to what should have happened is not connected to faith at all, even if it is expressed in religious language. It is an optimistic way of relating to suffering, what is called looking at the glass half full. What angers you is the fact that the person who expressed it does not bear the burden of the suffering, but the optimistic outlook itself is good and beneficial, and is also expressed by people who have gone through the suffering themselves (for example: my grandfather always focused on the good that he managed to survive the Holocaust together with some of his family members and was not left alone. That did not contradict the pain over the loss of everyone else).
In the name of the one who said it:
“Troubles and deliverances can serve as a trigger for self-examination and for thanking the Holy One, blessed be He.”
But what do you think of the principled claim—if statistical miracles did in fact happen that helped us, is there no logic in saying they are from God even if there is no prophet who attests to them?
It seems to me that you made life too easy for yourself. Deri here was speaking to his audience and presenting a prevalent approach there. The fact that he is cynical and corrupt is unrelated to our discussion. The fact that his audience buys it means that this is a prevalent theology there even among innocent and decent people.
If miracles happened, then indeed there is logic in attributing them to the Holy One, blessed be He. But these “statistical miracles” are not miracles. This has already been discussed here to exhaustion.
These baseless hate-trolling remarks are not worth responding to.
A. Then why don’t they also thank Him for the massacre in October, and only for the “miracles”? Alternatively, what special miracles were there this year that do not occur every single moment? Who said the purpose of the trouble is for good? You assume that He is the one who caused it—an assumption without sense or basis.
B. This optimistic perspective is stupid even if it comes from someone who does bear the burden. You can be optimistic, and that’s excellent. But don’t base it on baseless fabrications about divine involvement.
People who were not breathing independently, connected to an oxygen tank, got stuck in road blockades—it wasn’t at all extreme because it happened to me, not to him. He, as is known, belongs to “other people.” There was indeed violence against people who got caught in the road blockades—
and there was clear incitement against Haredim and against “Kohelet.” There was a call by former head of Military Intelligence Malka to make life miserable for Likud Knesset members, and more.
But “Independently” sees only himself.
The broken clock, Dov Halbertal, showed the right time.
And regarding Rogel Alpher—I read on Wikipedia that he was involved in a project called “Young Psychopath,”
well, today he’s less young, but he hasn’t lost his touch.
I read newspapers (online) at least an hour a day and have been doing so for 15 years already (to my shame), and these are conclusions I reached independently. And there are many more like me who see reality this way, and in all likelihood the Knesset members from the right see it this way too. And that is probably also the main reason the Haredim are not drafted into the IDF. This is not sociopathy. It is probably an understanding of what is really going on beneath the surface. Without hatred. An understanding that one probably cannot trust the army leadership. After all, in the early days of the state, a non-negligible percentage of Haredim did enlist. And their worldview was no different then, and the Hazon Ish also strongly opposed the state. And even then they saw the yeshivot as Noah’s ark. But because of the memory of the Holocaust and its impact on the Haredi public, such that there was no one who had not lost relatives in the Holocaust, the community’s leaders did not forbid enlistment (though they did not encourage it either). But after all the wars against religion in the army, apparently the leaders of that public saw what I have only seen over the past four years. Apparently they already understood then (in their view) that this is probably not really the state of the Jews.
Just to correct Nadav Shnerb:
The Haredim are not Satmar.
Satmar has an ideology. They want no connection with the State of Israel in any aspect, neither its honey nor its sting; that’s their right. The average Lithuanian Haredi can quote you, with the pathos of a Midwestern Christian preacher, a selection of anti-Zionist slogans while sitting there in smug contentment at his job in some government office.
A. Regarding the massacre, one really does have to justify the judgment and bless “the true Judge,” whose meaning is the understanding that this trouble came justly, even though we do not know why.
Who said the purpose of the trouble is for good? If you wish, by reason; and if you wish, by Scripture. If you wish, by reason—if God is perfect goodness, then necessarily what happens (by His hand, or with His permission) is also part of that good; and if you wish, by Scripture—“The Rock, His work is perfect, for all His ways are justice; a God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is He.”
B. Why is an optimistic perspective stupid?
It really isn’t connected to divine involvement. Attributing it to involvement is merely a different formulation of the same idea—focusing on the parts that seem positive to us. (See Rabbenu Manoach on chapter 10 of Hilkhot Berakhot, halakhah 9, that when a miracle happens to a person, it may be coincidence and it may be providence, and the thanks to God are given because of the doubt.)
Woe to us.
All the more so when these words come from someone who once praised Aspergerism. Apparently they really did go too far.
Just to clarify. I still praise Aspergerism. But here we are speaking of moral Asperger’s, not Asperger’s toward people’s feelings and fixations. There is a difference between saying it is wrong to conduct oneself according to emotion and saying it is wrong to conduct oneself according to morality.
It really is infuriating.
Only the rabbi did them an undeserved kindness—diagnosing them with an illness—as if this were beyond their choice.
That’s the problem—the Haredim are human trash who choose their actions in full possession of their faculties!
You’ve gone overboard. I emphasized that in my opinion this is a diagnosis of the Haredi collective, and perhaps also of some of the individuals. Such a sweeping accusation is really not accurate. There are quite a few good people there, except that they are like captured infants trapped in a delusional and sick ideology. Unfortunately, most of them do not display independent thought and basic autonomy, but the circumstances (the captivity) contribute to that, and therefore it is not right to relate to all of them this way across the board.
If until now I thought otherwise, now in the daycare-affair and Minister Ben-Tzur it has become clear that the Haredim are also prepared to fight directly against the good of the state’s other citizens. Until now I thought the Haredim saw me (a religious reservist and former Haredi) as another person living alongside them, and that there was some kind of mutual regard between us. Now I understand that in their eyes I am dust. They have no problem taking my daycare money if only as political leverage. Simply taking my money hostage.
What the rabbi wrote is astonishing, but I completely disagree with the distinction between the individuals and the public. As time passes, and given the support their leaders receive, it becomes clear that a significant portion of this public is wicked and does not see the other citizens.
Of course, while taking our money, they also despise us, and this is known to anyone who has been there.
If the flame has caught among the great, what shall the broad public say?
And forgive me for being emotional; it seems to me that we are both angry.
Where is the problem with the claim that sometimes God wants to awaken us to prayer and mercy, but does so by way of a miracle, in that a blow that ostensibly should or could have killed did not in the end kill?
No problem at all. Except that this delusional thesis has nothing to do with the discussion. Even if it is true, one must blame Him for the trouble if one thanks Him for the deliverance, or vice versa.
The levels of delusion people reach in order to defend a baseless “thought system” have already been well demonstrated in communist writings. There is nothing really new here.
All countries do this—prevent the transfer of budgets in order to obtain a budget or another political objective. This is not unique to the Haredim. That is how the political system works.
The Haredim see the other citizens only after they see themselves, just like any other population. They also do not think they are taking your money, but rather getting their money back (except that technically this is not true).
There are no gaps in nature, but there are in human will. Wicked human beings chose (in a frenzy; at a certain point their choice ended, like addicts’) to murder, burn, and rape. And the Holy One, blessed be He, did not prevent them. There is definitely evil that comes down from above. At that same time, tens of thousands of terrorists in Lebanon were waiting for the order to attack Israel; *all* of Military Intelligence’s top brass claim that at least in part it would have materialized had they only joined in, and the massacre in the Gaza envelope would have paled in comparison. There is definitely a possibility that the Holy One toyed with their minds and did not allow them to act. Thank God. Why? I don’t know. I’m not Him. I only know that I was born at a point in history and someday I will go. Within that span of time, I hope to succeed in the mission of “and you shall do what is right and good” and “you shall be holy.” It’s quite challenging. Both of them.
Just to note that I do not necessarily think this, but I am certainly willing to accept the view that, assuming God is good, especially toward the chosen people, then one distinguishes: the trouble is to awaken us, and the deliverance is from mercy and love toward us. Where is the delusion here?? For the sake of the good God.
So why are the Kaplan people fighting against the establishment of a Haredi brigade? Why do the Arab public’s special privileges (National Insurance, balancing grants, “corrective” preference, and more) not bother them? Why is the Arab public not discussed at all? It should have been dealt with first, even before the Haredim. If people are afraid of a fifth column, and rightly so, then don’t take taxes from them and don’t provide services. How do the Haredim absorb all the attention? Why doesn’t that bother you? It makes no sense at all.
From what I can see, the Kaplan people want total rule, not any kind of equality. One only has to look into their eyes, blazing with fire and frenzy, to see it. Halutz, Ya’alon, Barak, etc. Truly wonderful people….
Nonsense. Give an example of withholding budget transfers in order to achieve some goal, and then we’ll examine whether it’s similar and what the proper attitude should be.
Equality matters to them?
Someone who served as the IDF’s Chief Education Officer called to “throw ‘Kohelet’ out of here.”
In the name of what equality is he speaking?
And if it’s “Brothers in Arms”—why didn’t they protest the disturbances of prayer in Tel Aviv on Yom Kippur?
Is this what you expect from your brothers?
Our teacher Michael will probably claim that even among the saints of Kaplan there are “weeds”—
but we haven’t heard the protest of the righteous among them.
I didn’t understand—the man is quoting Nadav Shnerb.
“Not worth responding to”?
“A man’s folly perverts his way, and his heart rages against the Lord.”
Three wise men sat there, saw all the signs of impending disaster—and did nothing!
They didn’t even declare alert status for the few forces that were in the field!
But the three are from our camp, from the Kaplan force—so the discussion must be diverted from those directly responsible
to the real culprits—the Haredim.
And all the rest is nonsense.
There is the luminary (everything began from a single point of light), which is the Creator of the world, and there is the light, where the light is the way by which the Creator created His world (emanated the light onto His world). That means that what happens to a person is not determined by the Creator in each immediate moment, but by the form in which He created all the worlds.
On earth the Creator established a system of laws for nature and a system of laws for man, which is the Torah. Since the Creator granted us intellect and a system of laws, then roughly everything written in the Torah are things that must be fulfilled. So if He created us and gave us the Torah, it necessarily follows that there is no reality in which the words of His Torah are not fulfilled. For example, when a person prays to his God, then by the laws He emanated upon us in His world—according to the Torah, in which His Torah is heard—it truly is heard and operates according to the laws He fixed. So when you turn to the Creator in prayer, the meaning is that you are not turning directly to the Creator but to the part that He emanated into the world, which is part of Him.
In 2019, the Democrats in the U.S. blocked passage of the budget because of their opposition to funding construction of the wall on the Mexican border. This shut down government offices for five weeks and caused broad disruptions to the economy. The same thing happened in 2013 when the Republicans opposed funding Obamacare.
Just as I thought—nonsensical comparisons.
I can’t believe one even has to explain to you the difference between opposing passage of a budget because of disagreement over the matter itself and the present case.
And this is without even getting into the background of this delusional story here, which was meant to help draft-dodgers.
Did you send the article to the reader R. Moshe Hillel Hirsch?
Now it’s my turn to apologize for returning to the subject of miracles—how is it that to prove that a miracle occurred you need the certification of a prophet, if to prove that a person is a prophet you need a miracle?
An open miracle that is against the laws of nature, or a miracle predicted in advance, is a miracle even without the testimony of a prophet. A “statistical miracle” could also just be chance. Therefore, you need a prophet to say that it is the handiwork of the Holy One, blessed be He.
And even if you were right, there is not necessarily a contradiction here. An established prophet can testify to the miracles of a new prophet. The chain begins with Moses or with the Holy One, blessed be He.
If the matter is predicted in advance, then that proves it. If someone predicts precisely the state of the stock market on every day of the coming month (without other false prophecies), then he is one heck of a prophet.
And even that doesn’t stop them from intervening in every field—from choosing a chief rabbi, to choosing the Tanakh curriculum supervisor, to deciding who will live where.
Stock-market prophecies are statistical, not events that contradict the laws of nature.
And in truth, according to quantum mechanics every event in nature has some probability in the wave function—it’s all just statistics.
Knowing many statistical events in advance is a miracle beyond the laws of nature.
In order to examine whether there was involvement of the Holy One, blessed be He, for our benefit in the events of October 7, I assume that at least one way is to examine all the possibilities in which the situation could have developed, and see whether the possibility that in fact occurred is a reasonable one, and whether it is to our benefit relative to the other possibilities. In the Holocaust it is clear that this was a negative thing and not a miracle, because the other plausible possibilities to which the situation in those years could have developed were clearly, for the most part, more positive.
I don’t really know what happened among our enemies on October 7, but I have heard claims that the situation could have been much worse—for example, if Hezbollah had decided to intervene, or if the attack had been carried out with fuller cooperation from Iran. Even if we had prevented this specific attack, the situation might have been worse, because it would not have brought to light Hamas’s insane plans that the IDF did not know about, and perhaps we would have gotten a much bigger blow later on.
I don’t know whether this analysis is correct, but in principle, if it is correct, and given that in everything dependent on our free choice (for example, the IDF’s conduct) there were many failures, is this outcome not preferable to most of the other alternatives, and therefore can one perhaps say that there was some degree of involvement of the Holy One, blessed be He, in selecting the least bad possibility given the situation?
A crooked criterion. It could have been more good and also more bad. So what does that say? Why does that show divine involvement? Whatever happens is always at some level of badness, with levels above it and below it.
Let us set aside for a moment the Hasidic-kabbalistic-midrashic theology according to which no evil descends from above, the curses are sublime blessings in disguise, etc.
Pharaoh decrees destruction upon the males; Jochebed places the infant Moses into an ark; the ark not only does not capsize, but comes straight into the hands of Pharaoh’s daughter, who adopts the child. In that case, can one say that the Holy One, blessed be He, simultaneously wanted to punish the people of Israel as a whole for some reason, but in the meantime chose to save Moses (because his family in particular was all right and because God destined him for the role of redeemer)? Were Moses’ parents allowed to offer a prayer of thanksgiving?
If equality mattered to them, they would hold demonstrations for army conscription not only in Mea Shearim but also in Umm al-Fahm. Because either way, we are all Israelis, we all have to share the burden—so what if Ahmed does not share the values of Zionism? We’ll re-educate him!
How can one know what is a miracle and what is a coincidence (or a ‘miracle within nature’)? Stalin murdered millions, including Jews, and died after staging the Doctors’ Trial, which was the opening signal for pogroms and the deportation of the Jews. Is that a miracle or a coincidence?
Well then, since I was not blessed with as much wisdom as you, I’d ask you to explain to me what the difference is, without bringing in personal opinions about the specific issue of drafting Haredim.
I didn’t understand the question. Everyone is allowed to offer a prayer of thanksgiving.
Actually, in the Torah we find that we thank God for bringing us out of Egypt even though He is the one who brought us there.
In short: “go complain to the craftsman who made me.”
So why are you grumbling against the ordinary Jew?
You measure the range of plausible possibilities given what could have happened, and check whether what happened is good relative to the other possibilities (that it would have made sense to occur). If we throw a die 10 times, a million things could happen, but if 10 sixes come up, we suspect there is something beyond luck. According to various people’s assessments of reality (I don’t know if they are right), among the plausible scenarios given the parameters that do not depend on the Holy One, blessed be He (the conduct of the IDF and the conduct of the enemies), the specific scenario that occurred was one of the better possible ones.
How can one fail to see personal divine providence right before one’s eyes!
The Sabbath protected the city | Everything shattered to pieces—what remained intact?
The eruv inspector on behalf of the city’s rabbis in Bnei Brak went this morning to the site of the strike on the border of Ramat Gan and Bnei Brak, on Ben-Gurion Street. The inspector arrived equipped with the relevant tools, because he knew clearly that ostensibly, given the force of the strike, the eruv wire must have been invalidated. But what he discovered before his eyes surprised him, and will surprise you too—the eruv remained completely intact in all its meticulous standards | Full details and documentation from the scene (Haredim)
| 11 | Kikar HaShabbat | 18 Heshvan | 19.11.24
Go to Uman; there you won’t have any questions…
If that’s what you think about the Kaplan people, then how would you explain, for example, the fact that at the beginning of the war, when the opposition was called upon to join a unity government, at first no party agreed to enter if Ben Gvir was in that government. In the end only Gantz entered, and even that with an ultimatum that Ben Gvir and Smotrich would not sit in the war cabinet. He had no problem at all with Deri sitting in that cabinet, despite the fact that the voters of Ben Gvir and Smotrich constitute the spearhead of the ground fighters who risk their lives the most and have the highest motivation among ground troops in particular and in Israeli society generally. In general, the percentage of combat soldiers and reservists among their voters is the highest in Israeli society. And all this on the basis of his worn-out claim (and that of the other opposition parties) that they are “messianic and extreme”…… (quite apart from the fact that they were the only ones who were right in their predictions throughout the years and the only ones who did not fall for the misconception…). He had no problem at all joining with the Haredim and even sitting with them in the cabinet. And this is Gantz, no less. Not to mention the other opposition parties. Even Yair Golan said, about a month ago, that he has no problem sitting with the Haredim, and he is the father of all Kaplanists. And it doesn’t seem to me that he would be willing to sit with Ben Gvir, given his intense hatred of him….
And there are more examples like this.
So how do you explain that?
So it seems to me that drafting the Haredim does not really interest them. Only power.
Q.E.D.
I really didn’t understand; that’s how all the holidays are. This is Jewish theology.
We celebrate that we left Egypt despite the fact that God brought us there, and likewise Purim, likewise Hanukkah, and so on and so forth.
Shock waves do not damage thin, flexible objects like a wire.
It’s insulting, from my perspective, to answer this bizarre question. It’s a collection of words that does not even manage to formulate an argument with premises related to the conclusion. So I suggest you go back and formulate an argument that has clear premises and a conclusion, preferably without propaganda. If I can discern some connection between the premises and the conclusion, I’ll try to respond.
When there are prophets who tell us what comes from Him and what does not, distinctions can be made.
The holidays, like the prayers, do not necessarily constitute thanking the Holy One, blessed be He, for specific involvement, as I have explained more than once.
And above all, even if the holidays were such cases, the fact that there is something puzzling in our tradition does not mean one may go on saying nonsense about every event that happens to us. Better to leave it as a question requiring further thought. Abraham also bound his son. Pinhas stabbed Zimri. The red heifer defiles the pure and purifies the impure. Do you think that from now on I am supposed to bind my children? Alternatively, praise those who do so? Am I from now on supposed to speak contradictory things?
Gantz is not interested in Smotrich’s and Ben Gvir’s voters, and he does not respect them even though they are fighting on the battlefield (in that he does not think their representatives are fit to be among the decision-makers concerning the war) because of their “messianism and extremism.” This, while it does not bother him that representatives of a public that does not enlist should sit at the center of decision-making about the war (Deri was in the cabinet). How can that be? Because what really matters to him is not equality among all who serve but imposing his own (defeatist) policy. The Haredim do not interfere with that. Smotrich and Ben Gvir do. And this is an example of what really matters to someone still considered moderate relative to Kaplan (as stated, Yair Golan thinks the same way as he does). A Palestinian state in Gaza the day after (or hostages, or surrender to American dictates, etc.) matters more than equality in the draft.
Good. Now here are two logical fallacies in your argument.
It may be that equality in sharing the burden matters to him very, very much (especially after October 7, and here is another fallacy of yours, that you are comparing cases before and after), but there are other things that matter to him as well—for example, that there not be messianism. You may dislike his attitude toward messianism, but your inference regarding his attitude toward equality in sharing the burden fails.
But Maimonides writes in Hilkhot Ta’aniyot that in times of distress one must cry out and sound the alarm and examine one’s deeds, and also (in Hilkhot Berakhot) that one who came out of danger blesses: ‘Who bestows good things upon the guilty, who has bestowed every goodness upon me’…
What intellectual dishonesty…… First of all, that event was after 7.10, as I remind you.
Second, this is exactly the disrespect I’m talking about. Smotrich’s voters: they are good enough to fight and die, but because they are messianic they have no place at the decision-making table. Equality means equality in everything, not only in enlistment. Otherwise it’s not equality, it’s subjugation. By contrast, the Haredim do not enlist at all, but one can let them sit at the table. Conclusion: if the left has the possibility of forming a government, it will once again sit with the Haredim and not draft anyone so that there will be no messianics in government.
So then we messianics are also allowed to sit with the Haredim and not draft anyone. And therefore all the cries from Kaplan that equality in the draft matters to them are a bluff. Because anti-“messianism” matters to them much more. After all, they cry out mainly about the Likud and about Smotrich, not about the Haredim….
All right, I’ve given up.
Deri also represents quite a lot of draftees. In the soldiers’ vote, Shas traditionally wins non-negligible support.
And as for the logic: all that emerges from Kaplan’s outcries is not that equality matters to them, but that it matters most to them.
And then Gantz—when it comes to a unity government and not just any government—excludes from the cabinet the representatives of the public that enlists the most. So apparently equality is not more important to him than power or dictating his policy…. And the Kaplan people are even more like Yair Golan than like Gantz.
Maybe he represents them, but not willingly… and it is not because of that that Gantz, His Excellency, is willing to let him sit in the cabinet….
Other than sending two flares at the prime minister’s house and calling for civil rebellion and refusal to serve, everything was fine.
Your criticism of the people of Moreshet does not seem right to me, nor does that of that wild fool from Haaretz. You are simply trying to force-sell your theology (like an excited child who thinks he has discovered some gimmick and rushes to sell it to everyone, then gets angry that there are no buyers in the audience he is trying to sell to).
They explicitly also said that the evil that happened to them was also from God. They simply understood that the good reality in which they had lived until then, and the fact that they are alive and breathing, is not something to be taken for granted (and it is not stable as a rock). This includes the very existence of the property in their hands. Therefore they confessed their sin (or that they had sinned in something), such that they were not worthy of God’s protection of their property from Nasrallah (who is indeed not specifically an enemy of Israel, but simply a harmful living creature that identified weakness in a person who came into its field of vision), and they also thanked Him for protecting their lives. You may say there is nothing to thank Him for because that is the judgment they deserved, but we are also supposed to give thanks for what we have, because that too is not self-evident, since the Holy One does not owe us even that. I can understand someone who is angry at the Holy One over someone he thinks was treated unjustly, like Job or any Holocaust survivor, but it is not absurd for someone who was saved to thank Him for his own personal rescue if he thinks he did not deserve it. There are things in the world that I have come to terms with as capable of being taken from me, even though it does not seem to me that I deserve that according to justice given my deeds, and I can curse God or come to Him with complaints (as Job did, and from his standpoint rightly), but it simply does not work and is not effective to fight God over it, but rather to give thanks for what there is and try to draw conclusions about what I am supposed to do with their loss. I have not come to terms equally with the loss of everything I have. There are certainly things that, if taken from me, I will probably curse God because of them—unless that very God helps me not to curse Him for it. That, incidentally, is in a certain sense a kind of summary of the Book of Job (in my humble opinion). You may say it is better to ignore His existence or to expect His help, but someone whose feeling is that God has helped him in the past and that his success was not accidental obviously will not be convinced by that, and rightly so.
Besides, it may very well be that from the perspective of the people of Moreshet, the likelihood (and probability?) that they would be harmed by the missiles that fell on them was greater than it appears to us (perhaps even much greater—far greater than the probability that no one would be hurt), but under special providence (a miracle) only their property was harmed and not life. So they thank Him for the good and bless for the evil (=justify God and search their deeds). One can see this as thanking God for warning them in advance about an illness they have before it causes them irreversible damage, like a dentist who warns of a certain damage to the teeth—a reversible damage—that occurred because of neglect, and this before much more severe damage happened (which may be irreversible). Here too the agent of the damage is the bacteria God created; in our case they are Nasrallah.
With respect to the Holocaust, we have a different feeling than the people of Moreshet had regarding the evil that happened to them. That is all. We do not feel some worse thing that could have happened, because American Jewry (and the other Jewish communities outside Europe at that time) had been formed decades before the Holocaust, and therefore we do not see in its continued existence despite the Holocaust a miracle. And this is without any connection to the statements of Deri or Goldknopf. At most, what you are really doing is directing against God the same complaints Job directed. Which is of course perfectly fine. But somehow, something convinced Job of the justice of God. It is not clear what, and Nahmanides in Sha’ar HaGemul writes that it is a secret. That is, it is something that has to be seen with the eyes, and no verbal explanation (which is relating it to the familiar) will satisfy the ordinary person.
And let the objective reader judge between us.
You are like the tiger and the lion that pounced on the poor lamb. Those Jews you quoted here present the ancient and traditional faith expressed in the Torah, the Prophets, the Writings, and the Sages. If in your eyes that is sociopathy or any other foreign-sounding word, then speak directly about the One who sent them down that path, not about some Knesset member or community-center director in the north.