Halakha and Reality – Lesson 1
This transcript was produced automatically using artificial intelligence. There may be inaccuracies in the transcribed content and in speaker identification.
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Table of Contents
- Rashi’s first comment on the Torah and the justification for opening with Genesis
- “To whom He saw fit,” “the Book of the Upright,” and a moral justification for the choice of Israel
- Commandment, command, and the distinction between imperative verses and descriptive verses
- Truth-falsehood claims, declarative statements, and imperative statements
- Maimonides, the eighth principle, and decree as a unifying term
- Negation of obligation versus warning, and the example of “she shall not go out as the slaves go out”
- Jewish law and reality, the naturalistic fallacy, and bridge principles
- The example from Bava Batra 5a: “A person does not repay within the term”
- Questions at the end: obeying the High Court, women’s immersion, and desire for food versus desire for women
Summary
General Overview
The text opens with Rashi’s first comment on the Torah in the name of Rabbi Yitzhak, who assumes that the Torah is primarily about commandments, and therefore apparently should have begun with “This month shall be for you,” and Rashi answers that Genesis is needed in order to justify giving the Land of Israel to Israel in the face of the nations’ claim, because “He declared to His people the power of His works.” The author argues that the formal answer—that the Creator owns the world—is not sufficient on its own, and suggests that the continuing narrative of Genesis also morally justifies the choice of Israel through “the Book of the Upright” and the portrayal of the Patriarchs as upright people. From there he moves to clarifying the concept of command: a commandment is not a utilitarian or evaluative statement but an obligation. On that basis he builds a logical-linguistic distinction between declarative statements and imperative statements, uses Maimonides in the eighth principle to show that a “negation of obligation” is not a warning, and concludes with a thesis about the relationship between Jewish law and reality: Jewish law depends on facts, but is not derived from them alone; rather, it operates through “bridge principles,” which are the essence of the Torah, as illustrated in the Talmudic passage about “a person does not repay within the term” in Bava Batra.
Rashi’s first comment on the Torah and the justification for opening with Genesis
Rabbi Yitzhak states that the Torah should only have begun with “This month shall be for you,” as the first commandment that Israel was commanded. Rashi explains that opening with Genesis is meant to answer the nations of the world, who will say, “You are robbers,” regarding the conquest of the lands of the seven nations, and Israel replies that the entire earth belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He: “He created it and gave it to whom He saw fit,” and by His will He took it from them and gave it to us. The author emphasizes that Rabbi Yitzhak’s question assumes that the Torah is supposed to focus on commandments, and that every part that is not a commandment requires justification, while Rashi’s answer gives justification only for the first “five quarters,” so it still leaves room for additional explanations for the rest of the non-halakhic sections.
“To whom He saw fit,” “the Book of the Upright,” and a moral justification for the choice of Israel
The author argues that Rashi’s answer could have sufficed with just the chapters of creation in order to show that the Holy One, blessed be He, is the owner of the world, so an explanation is needed for why the whole book of Genesis and the beginning of Exodus are included before “This month shall be for you.” He suggests that the expression “to whom He saw fit” hints to the fact that Genesis is called by the Sages “the Book of the Upright,” and the Netziv, in his introduction, explains that it is called this because it is the book of the upright and describes the Patriarchs, who walked in the upright path and even possessed natural uprightness before the giving of the Torah. The author connects this to Rabbi Kook’s pair of concepts, “upright and conquering,” and explains that in this way the narrative is not only a proof of formal power but also a presentation of a moral justification for the land being given to a people founded on pillars of uprightness, so that Rashi’s answer can explain the whole path up to the portion of Bo.
Commandment, command, and the distinction between imperative verses and descriptive verses
The author asks whether a command such as Sabbath observance means conveying information about spiritual or social benefit, and he determines that a commandment is not a description of benefit but a binding demand of “I need to do this.” He illustrates that the verse “Now the man Moses was exceedingly humble, more than any person on the face of the earth” is not a commandment, even though it may teach that humility is positive, because it is written in descriptive form and not in imperative form; if it had said “Be humble,” it would have been a positive commandment. He gives the example of a traffic light in order to distinguish between “it makes sense” or “it’s worthwhile” and obligation, and concludes that the halakhic part of the Torah is distinguished first and foremost by the language of command—do and do not do—whereas moral lessons learned from descriptions are not identical to obeying a command.
Truth-falsehood claims, declarative statements, and imperative statements
The author brings Aristotle, who defines a claim as a sentence to which one can attach a truth value of true or false, and distinguishes between sentences that are not claims, such as questions, and declarative statements that describe facts which can be examined and compared to reality. Opposed to declarative statements are imperative statements, to which true or false cannot be attached, because they do not describe a state of affairs but obligate action or abstention. He illustrates this with the distinction between “According to Israeli law it is forbidden to steal,” which is a declarative statement describing a norm in the law book, and “It is forbidden to steal,” which is a statement that also contains the assumption that the norm is binding on the addressee, and he emphasizes that a command becomes a command only when the norm is relevant and binding on the one who hears it.
Maimonides, the eighth principle, and decree as a unifying term
The author moves to Maimonides in the Book of Commandments and explains that the principles are rules for counting the commandments, most of which deal with sorting and classification rather than the question of whether something is Torah-level or rabbinic. In the eighth principle, Maimonides states that it is not proper to count a “negation of obligation” together with a warning, and defines a warning as part of a command instructing one to do or not to do something. Maimonides explains that Arabic lacks a term that groups together command and warning, and so one of those terms is used in place of the whole, whereas in Hebrew the inclusive term is “decree,” and the Sages call every commandment, whether positive or negative, “the king’s decree.” The author adds that Maimonides’ linguistic discussion shows how a lexical lack can limit one’s grasp of the distinction between positive and negative commandments, and he brings examples of the Pirahã tribe, which counts “one, two, many,” and of the Eskimo concepts for snow, to illustrate how language affects the precision of conceptual distinction.
Negation of obligation versus warning, and the example of “she shall not go out as the slaves go out”
Maimonides defines “negation of obligation” as negating a predicate of a subject without any element of command at all, such as “So-and-so did not eat last night,” and stresses that “there is no scent of command in it.” The author explains that Maimonides’ novelty lies in normative cases that look halakhic but are not commands, such as the verse “she shall not go out as the slaves go out,” which teaches that a Canaanite maidservant does not go free through the loss of extremities as a slave does; this is a negation of a law, not a warning. Maimonides argues that the author of Halakhot Gedolot counted this as a commandment by mistake, because the verse does not obligate or prohibit an action but defines where a law applies and where it does not apply, and therefore it is not counted among the commandments even though it appears on the halakhic plane.
Jewish law and reality, the naturalistic fallacy, and bridge principles
The author links the distinction between halakhic and non-halakhic to the distinction between declarative statements about reality and imperative statements about Jewish law, and presents this as an introduction to a series on Jewish law and reality. He states that Jewish law is connected to facts because a halakhic decisor or religious court must determine reality before applying a law, but Jewish law is not derived from facts alone because one cannot derive an “ought” from an “is,” according to David Hume’s distinction between ought and is, and he calls this the naturalistic fallacy. He explains that deriving normative judgments from facts requires a “bridge principle,” such as the assumption that “everything with many colors is beautiful” in order to move from “there are many colors” to “this is beautiful,” and he presents the Torah as the system of bridge principles that connects facts to directives.
The example from Bava Batra 5a: “A person does not repay within the term”
The author brings the Talmudic passage in Bava Batra 5a in the laws of plaintiff and defendant, where a borrower who claims he repaid within the term is not believed because of the presumption that “a person does not repay within the term.” He argues that if reality changes and people do in fact repay within the term for cultural or economic reasons, it would be unthinkable to rule against reality just because there is an “explicit Talmudic passage,” and therefore the passage should not be discarded but rather its novelty should be understood. He defines the Torah’s innovation not as the psychological fact about people’s tendencies, but as the bridge principle that allows one to use a factual presumption in order to shift the burden of proof and transfer the obligation of proof to the defendant even though he is in possession, so that the facts and the conclusions can change while the bridge principle remains. He concludes that the “Torah” is neither the factual assumptions nor the conclusions that depend on them, but the principles that connect reality to norm, and adds that this logic also applies in morality, where principles remain in place but their application changes according to what causes a person pleasure or suffering.
Questions at the end: obeying the High Court, women’s immersion, and desire for food versus desire for women
In the question section, it was argued that there is no justification for Yuli Edelstein’s refusal with respect to the High Court’s ruling, and it was said that even if there is criticism of the intervention itself or of the interpretation of the law, once there is a binding ruling one must obey it, while distinguishing between a dispute over the substance of the law and rebellion against authority. In the discussion, the possibility of conscientious objection was raised only when a person is willing to bear the consequences and when it is not merely self-interest, and it was said that in the case under discussion the intervention was required on the grounds of separation of powers between the government and the Knesset. Later, a question was asked about women’s immersion during the coronavirus period, and it was said that a letter had been received from Rabbi Amsalem proposing immersion in drawn water in a pressing situation even without forty se’ah, and the author agreed in principle but recommended presenting it as “Rabbi Ilai’s ruling” for damage minimization rather than as a blanket permit. Finally, a question was asked why Haredi society is stricter about not postponing gratification in the area of forbidden looking than it is about obesity, and the answer given was that the stringency stems from the halakhic prohibition itself and not from a general principle of non-postponement of gratification, while emphasizing the principle of legality that “as long as it is not forbidden, it is permitted,” and distinguishing between the reasons for commandments and halakhic determinations.
Full Transcript
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] So I’m talking about Jewish law and reality, and I want to start with Rashi’s very first comment on the Torah. Rabbi Yitzchak said: The Torah should have begun only from “This month shall be for you,” which is the first commandment that Israel was commanded. So why did it begin with Genesis? Because of “He declared to His people the power of His works, in order to give them the inheritance of nations.” For if the nations of the world say to Israel, “You are robbers, because you conquered the lands of the seven nations,” they say to them: “The whole earth belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He. He created it and gave it to whomever was right in His eyes. By His will He gave it to them, and by His will He took it from them and gave it to us.”
So the question is: why, really, didn’t they begin with “This month shall be for you, the beginning of months”? Why begin with the book of Genesis? There’s roughly a chumash and a quarter that are unnecessary, and the answer is that it was necessary to tell the nations of the world—or really, to tell His people—the justification for why the Holy One, blessed be He, takes the Land of Israel and gives it to us, because He is the owner. He created the world, and whoever owns something has the right to do with what he created whatever he wants.
I’m using this only as a didactic opening for our topic. It’s not really the true point of departure, but I want to shed a bit of light on Rabbi Yitzchak’s question. Many times with things like this we rush quickly to the answer—let’s say, an answer that to my mind is rather questionable—but the question itself is an interesting one. Because Rabbi Yitzchak is basically assuming that if not for some special reason, the Torah should have started with the passage of “This month.” Why? So Rashi says here—and I’m emphasizing it—that this is “the first commandment that Israel was commanded.” In other words, the assumption is that the Torah was supposed to focus on commandments, and every part of the Torah that is not a commandment requires justification, requires explanation.
So in the question we already see some conception according to which the essence of the Torah—and by the way, even the root of the word Torah comes from instruction—the essence of Torah is the commandments, the halakhic part, the legal verses within the Torah. And the whole story around it—I assume the point is, well, what do I mean “I assume”? The question revolves around Genesis up until the passage of “This month,” up until the portion of Bo. But of course there are non-halakhic sections in the Torah after that too. So in the question we see that every section that is not a halakhic section needs justification. The answer offers an answer only for the first chumash and a quarter, meaning the other non-halakhic sections would need other explanations. But the question itself reveals to us the principle, and for us here that’s the important principle: basically, the commandments are the main substance of the Torah, and everything else is something that needs justification.
I’ll just say parenthetically, to complete the picture, that this question—actually, the answer, sorry, that Rashi proposes—doesn’t really explain not only the stories after the portion of Bo, but also everything that happens in Genesis and the beginning of Exodus after the creation story. After all, the answer basically says that the Holy One, blessed be He, had to show that He is the owner, and then He can give the land to whomever He wants. To show that the Holy One, blessed be He, is the owner, the first chapter of Genesis is enough. If you want, also the second chapter, fine, health and happiness. But that’s it. What about the rest of Genesis and the beginning of Exodus?
It seems to me—and again, I’m just saying this parenthetically to complete the discussion of this Rashi—it seems to me, I hope I’m right, I’m not sure, but this could be a good answer. I’m just not sure Rashi actually meant this. It says—and I’m emphasizing the phrase—“He created it and gave it to whomever was right in His eyes.” What does “whomever was right in His eyes” mean? The connotation that comes up here is that Genesis is called by the Sages “the Book of the Upright.” And the Netziv, in the introduction to his commentary, says it’s called the Book of the Upright because it is the book of upright people. Meaning: this book describes the Patriarchs, who were upright, meaning they followed the straight path.
Some attach this—and I think the Netziv himself also talks about this—to the fact that they had a kind of natural uprightness. Meaning, not only did they follow the rules of uprightness, they actually did so even before the giving of the Torah, before they were even given the rules of uprightness. Meaning they had some inner uprightness that they followed. In that sense, I think this is the pair of concepts of Rabbi Kook—what he calls upright and self-conquering. “Self-conquering” is someone who conquers his inclination and does the right thing, and “upright” is someone whose inclination itself leads him to do the right thing. In that sense, the Patriarchs were upright, and Genesis, which describes them, is called the Book of the Upright.
And so I think Rashi’s answer really does explain everything up until the portion of Bo, because that section—the narrative part of the Torah—has to give us an answer not only for God’s right to do what He wants with the Torah—formally, with the world, sorry. Formally, He created the world and He can do with it whatever He wants. But the fact that you can—that you have power—still doesn’t mean it’s justified. Or to put it differently: even if it is legally justified, that still doesn’t mean it is morally justified. And therefore, in order to justify it also on the moral plane, the Holy One, blessed be He, wanted to show why He gives it to the people of Israel, and the claim is that this is a people founded on pillars of uprightness. Let’s be optimistic—at least the Patriarchs were called upright—and because of that the land was promised to them and their descendants because of their uprightness. So Rashi’s answer gives a response to all of Genesis, not just the first two chapters. The first two chapters say that the Holy One, blessed be He, is the owner, and the rest of the chapters come to show why that owner chose to give the land specifically to this people: because the assumption is that it is given to those who walk in upright ways, or to upright people.
In any case, for our purposes, what matters here is that we learn from this Rashi that the essence of the Torah is the commandments. What distinguishes the commandments from the other parts of the Torah? First of all, even in what we might call the grammatical or logical-grammatical sense—what distinguishes them? Here I want to get a bit into the meaning of a commandment, or a command. What exactly is this thing? Or what is the relation between it and, say—I’ll formulate it this way:
When the Torah tells us, “Six days shall you labor, and on the seventh day you shall rest,” is it really trying to say that doing labor for six days is good, and resting on the seventh day is bad—sorry, and that resting on the seventh day is also good, and not resting on the seventh day is bad? Meaning, is it really just conveying information to us saying that if you rest, there is some spiritual or social benefit to it, however you want to interpret it, and if you don’t rest, then some kind of harm is caused? Is that the essence of the concept of command? Pretty clearly not. Apropos, these days we are very split between legal formalism and what is actually proper to do. That tension, it seems to me, is really accompanying our times right now. And here I think this really is the point at the center of the discussion.
Because to say that Sabbath observance is beneficial—and I say beneficial not in an interested, self-serving sense, but beneficial in a value sense, spiritually and ethically beneficial—that’s not a commandment. That is not the meaning of a commandment. A commandment does not come to tell me that observing the Sabbath is useful and good spiritually and ethically. Maybe it says that too; there is room to discuss that. But first and foremost, what it says is that I need to do it. That is the concept of a commandment. The basic meaning of a commandment is command. And therefore, if the Torah had said, look, whoever rests on the Sabbath repairs the worlds and attains this or that spiritual benefit, that would not have turned the thing into a commandment.
It says, “Now the man Moses was very humble, more than any person on the face of the earth.” Those verses are not commanding verses, even though we can understand from them that humility is something positive. As far as I know, nobody counts that verse as a commandment to be humble. Why not? Because first of all, on the grammatical level, that verse is not written in what, in grammatical contexts, is called the imperative tense. It is written in the tense of description. In this case it’s some kind of present, but it’s not a command. It describes something; it doesn’t command anything. If the verse had said, “Be humble,” that would be a positive commandment to be humble. But if the verse gives me the message that humility is something positive, that does not turn it into a command.
Maybe I’ll give an example from a plain legal context. Suppose there were traffic lights on the road. Green means go and red means stop—like the old comedy sketch, “On green you drive.” Now if the Knesset had not legislated the law that it is forbidden to go through a red light—I assume that’s a Knesset law, or maybe secondary legislation, but there is a law that forbids crossing on red. If that law didn’t exist, obviously there would still be logic in not crossing on red but only on green, because it’s dangerous. But the fact that it’s dangerous still doesn’t mean I’m obligated to do that. It only means that it makes sense to do it, that it is beneficial to do it, or that it’s good to do it. But it doesn’t mean that I must.
A command, in essence—the essence of a command—means something that tells me I must do something, or I am forbidden to do something, in the case of a negative command. Therefore, we can say—and now it’s already a matter of interpretation—that perhaps behind every command there is an assumption that what is demanded of me is something good in one sense or another, but that does not exhaust the essence of the command. That’s only an underlying assumption, if that. There are those who do not even assume that, and say there are no reasons for the commandments, that they are all royal decrees. So they don’t even assume that the commandments are something good in any sense. But still, from their point of view, it is a commandment. Why? Because on one thing everyone agrees—both those who think there are reasons for the commandments and those who think there are no reasons for the commandments—that the command obligates us to do it.
By contrast, the fact that something is good only means that it’s worthwhile doing, but there is no command. As long as the law forbidding crossing on red has not been enacted, nobody can come to me with a complaint if I crossed on red. They can say I’m stupid, they can say I’m wicked, they can say I’m endangering life, they can say anything—but they cannot say that I did something forbidden. Because as long as there is no command that commanded me not to cross, or to cross only on green or not to cross on red, there is no obligation. There is only a rationale for doing so—moral rationale, practical rationale—but there is no commandment.
So in short, the concept of command, first of all in the linguistic sense, is a verse that has to be written in the imperative form. Verses that are written as descriptions are not commandments. So if I return to Rashi, what distinguishes the halakhic part of the Torah from the non-halakhic part of the Torah is first of all the grammatical form in which the verse is written. If the verse is written in the imperative, then it is a commandment, either positive or negative. But if the verse describes something, then even though many moral or other lessons can be drawn from those descriptions, drawing lessons is not obeying a command. Those are two different things. So in short, the halakhic part of the Torah is the commands, the commandments.
What this really means—maybe we can even place it in a broader perspective—Aristotle defined a proposition as a sentence to which a truth value can be attached, either true or false. A sentence is a collection of words that has meaning. The basic unit of meaning is a sentence. Because a word has reference; it doesn’t have meaning in the full sense—it points to something. But a sentence claims something or says something. There are certain kinds of sentences about which I cannot say whether they are true or false. If I ask someone, “What time is it?” that is a sentence, it has meaning, it’s a question. I’m asking you what time it is. Nobody can say that this sentence is true or false. Why? Because it doesn’t make a claim. Only if you claim something can one say that the claim is false or true.
So the sentences Aristotle calls propositions are those sentences that can be related to in terms of truth or falsity. For example: it is dark outside now; there is a table in front of me; a lamp is lit here; or the lamp is not lit. That too is a proposition—in this case a false proposition, because it is lit—but it is a proposition because it asserts something. Once it asserts something, we can discuss whether it is true or false. A sentence that asserts nothing cannot be assigned a value, neither truth nor falsity. So the definition that distinguishes between a sentence and a proposition is that a proposition is a sentence to which a truth value can be assigned—true or false.
The standard sentences, the ordinary sentences, are declarative sentences, as distinct from imperative sentences. Here I return to the distinction I made at the beginning regarding commandments. Declarative sentences are sentences that declare something, describe some thing, tell me something. They describe what I said earlier: the table before me is white. Okay, that’s a declarative sentence. That sentence declares some fact, places some fact before me. Now I can discuss whether that fact is correct or incorrect, and therefore this declarative sentence is essentially a proposition.
The second type of sentence usually set in contrast to a declarative sentence is an imperative sentence. An imperative sentence says: do such-and-such, or don’t do such-and-such. An imperative sentence cannot be assigned a truth value of true or false. When someone tells me, “You must observe the Sabbath,” truth and falsity are simply not relevant here. Why? Because with a declarative sentence, when I want to check whether it is true or false, what I basically do is some kind of comparison. I look at the content of the sentence and compare it to the state of affairs in the world that the sentence describes.
So if I say that the table before me is white, in order to know whether the sentence is true or false—the proposition is true or false—I need to look and see whether this table is white. If it is white, then the proposition is true, and if it is some other color, then the proposition is false. So in fact determining truth or falsity regarding a proposition is done by comparison. Some philosophers would get angry at what I’m saying now—it’s a bit simplistic—but for our needs this will suffice. With a command, I have no way to test it. How can I test whether the command “Do not murder,” or the command “Remember the Sabbath day to sanctify it,” is true? In what sense is it true? It doesn’t describe anything, so I have nothing to look at in order to check whether it is true or false. There is no comparison—no act of comparison that I can perform in order to decide whether this thing is true or false. Therefore an imperative sentence is not a proposition, in the terminology I used earlier, because it cannot be assigned a truth value of true or false.
If we take a legal example: suppose I say, “It is forbidden to steal.” Now I’m not speaking in a religious context; say in a legal context. I say it is forbidden to steal. Well, it depends. If I mean to say that stealing is forbidden in some ethical sense, I don’t really have a simple way to judge whether that is true or false—at least not in the straightforward sense; in a moment I’ll qualify that a bit. If I claim, “According to Israeli law it is forbidden to steal,” that is not an imperative sentence but a declarative sentence. It is a sentence describing some item from Israeli law. In principle you can open the law book and check: if there is a law there that forbids stealing, then that proposition is true, and if there is no such law, then the proposition is false. So the proposition “The law book says that it is forbidden to steal,” or “According to Israeli law it is forbidden to steal,” is not a command but a declaration. It merely describes what is in the law book. In itself it still does not command me to do anything—unless of course I feel bound by what is written in the law book. But in itself it is merely a sentence that describes some item from the law book.
Therefore, this sentence is basically a declarative sentence, a descriptive sentence, a proposition. When I say, “It is forbidden to steal”—not that the law book says it is forbidden to steal, or that under Israeli law it is forbidden to steal. When I tell you, “It is forbidden to steal,” I am not speaking right now about a legal prohibition—not necessarily a halakhic prohibition either; the logic is the same. What I’ve told you is not only the proposition that the Israeli law book contains a prohibition on stealing. I said that too, but not only that. I also said something more: that the Israeli law book obligates you. Because if I say to some Australian fellow that the Israeli law book says it is forbidden to steal, he says okay, nice to meet you, that doesn’t obligate him—he’s not an Israeli citizen. Israeli law obligates Israeli citizens. Therefore I cannot say to an Australian citizen the legal statement “It is forbidden to steal,” unless I’m talking about Australian law. But if I mean forbidden under Israeli law, then it’s irrelevant. All I can do is give him the declarative sentence, the description that Israeli law contains a prohibition on stealing.
Meaning, when someone says to me as an Israeli citizen, “It is forbidden to steal,” two things are being said here. First, a fact or factual claim: that the law book says stealing is forbidden. Second, there is some assumption hidden behind this sentence, namely that what is written in the law book obligates you. And therefore without the second part, it isn’t a command. The first part is descriptive; it describes the existence of a norm, but it is still description. Once it turns that norm into a norm that is relevant to me, it becomes a command. And that is basically the essence of a command.
Now I want us to look for a moment at—I’m not going to address the chat in the middle because I simply can’t while speaking. I’d have to stop speaking and it’s not efficient. You can write there if you want, but we’ll talk about it after the class, whoever wants. So please forgive me for not addressing the chat.
Okay, I’m going to do some sharing again, and I’m moving into Maimonides’ eighth root, a very interesting root. I’ll remind those who don’t know: Maimonides, at the beginning of his Book of Commandments, prefaced the book with fourteen roots, and those roots are rules that determine exactly how commandments are counted, what gets included, what doesn’t, and so on. The roots are of various kinds. There are roots that define certain commandments as rabbinic commandments, and therefore they cannot be counted. Those are roots that depend on the authority of the commandment—meaning, a commandment isn’t counted because its authority is not Torah-level but only rabbinic. But most of the roots do not deal with the authority of the commandment, but with questions of classification and categorization. For example, if there are many details—like the four species—you don’t count that as four commandments but as one. Not because there isn’t a Torah-level obligation to take an etrog; obviously there is. So that root is not based on the authority of the commandment but on classification. If you have four details that combine into one commandment, it is counted as one commandment and not four, and so on.
In the eighth root there is a root which, within this classification between roots of authority and classificatory roots, is not completely clear where it belongs. It seems to me it belongs more on the side of roots of authority. But let’s read.
The eighth root: “It is not proper to count the negation of obligation together with a prohibition.” That’s the title of the root. There are things called “negation of obligation,” certain verses that Maimonides describes as negations of obligation, and it is incorrect to count them among the negative commandments. “Prohibitions” means negative commandments; a negation of obligation is not a prohibition. You cannot include it in the count of negative commandments.
Now Maimonides begins to describe what exactly a negation of obligation is. He says like this: Know that a prohibition is one of the two parts of a command. For you may command one who is commanded to do something or not to do it, as when you command him to eat and say to him “Eat,” or command him to keep away from eating and say to him “Do not eat.”
So a command has two parts, basically—in our language, positive commandments and negative commandments. You can command someone to do something or command him to refrain from doing something, to keep away from doing something. By the way, this is of course only a schematic description. Anyone who has been in the classes knows we’ve discussed this more than once: there are positive commandments that command refraining, and there are negative commandments that command action. This distinction between commanding refraining and commanding action does not overlap with the distinction between negative commandment and positive commandment. There is no overlap between the two things, but right now I’m ignoring that issue.
For example, there is a positive commandment to rest on the Sabbath. That commandment tells me to refrain, not to do. It tells me don’t do labor, but it says this in the language of a positive commandment: rest on the Sabbath. There is also “do not do any labor,” which is a negative commandment, but “rest on the Sabbath” is a positive commandment, and in the content of the commandment it is abstention—meaning, not to do some action. There are also negative commandments such as “Do not stand idly by your neighbor’s blood”—that is a negative commandment, but what it requires of me is to perform an act of rescue. When I see my friend drowning or in danger, I need to do something in order to save him. So this is a negative commandment that should seemingly command me not to do something, but no—the negative commandment actually instructs me to do something. Therefore the distinction between negative and positive does not overlap with the distinction between a command to act and a command to refrain from acting. In any case, Maimonides here intends only a schematic description. Maimonides of course was perfectly aware of this, so here it’s only schematic.
I continue. “And in the Arabic language there is no term that includes these two matters together.” Now this is a very interesting linguistic introduction. “And the scholars of logic have already mentioned this, and said as follows: As for command and prohibition, there is no term for them in the Arabic language that gathers them together.” That is, that brings them under one roof. “And we had to call both by the name of one of them, namely ‘command.’” In other words, there are positive commandments and negative commandments. In principle, “commandment” properly refers only to positive commandments. One commands me—that is, one says do something. A negative commandment isn’t really rightfully called a commandment; it’s something else, a prohibition if you like. But in Arabic—and remember, this work was originally written in Arabic; what we are reading is only a translation—there is no word in Arabic that gathers positive and negative commandments under one roof. There is no word like “decree,” say. Maimonides says it isn’t accurate, because “command” is a borrowed usage. In its true meaning, command applies to positive commandments. “Negative commandment” is not quite correct. And since there is no word in Arabic—soon we’ll get to Hebrew, but there is no word in Arabic that joins these two things—therefore they commonly call them positive commandments and negative commandments, “and we had to call both by the name of one of them, namely command,” as Maimonides says. “It has already become clear to you that prohibition is of the matter of command.” Maimonides says: it’s true there is no word that joins these two kinds together, but it is clear to us all that they are two species of the same genus. There is something shared by positive and negative commandments. He does not say what, but it is clear to us that prohibition is of the matter of command. It is not quite right to call it command, but it is not entirely alien either; it is no accident that we use the term command to describe prohibitions as well.
“And the well-known word in Arabic assigned to prohibition is the word ‘la.’” “La” here is not Hebrew “lo,” yes? “And this matter itself is undoubtedly found in every language, namely that one commands the commanded person to do a thing or not to do it.” So basically in every language there is some way of commanding one to do something and commanding one not to do something, but not in every language is there a shared term for both. Therefore one often uses a borrowed term like “commandment.”
“If so,” I continue reading, “it is clear that positive commandments and negative commandments are both full command, things that He commanded us to do and things from which He warned us from doing.” Again, He didn’t command us not to do them, but warned us against doing them. “And the name of the command to do them is positive commandment, and the name of that from which one is warned is negative commandment.”
Now notice: I remind you that this entire discussion is a translation from Arabic. When we read it in Hebrew, it sounds very strange; the translation here misses the point. Because when we read it in Hebrew, we don’t understand what he wants. You tell me that in Arabic there is no shared term, but in Hebrew there is—so why in Hebrew too are you calling them positive commandments and negative commandments? Use the shared term. After all, you’re telling me that “command” applies only to positive commandments, and in Arabic they borrowed it also for negative commandments. But in Hebrew you’re saying there is a concept—he hasn’t yet said what it is—but there is a shared concept. So why here do you use “positive commandments” and “negative commandments”? The answer is that if Maimonides had written this in Hebrew, it would not have been written this way. This is simply the translation. It was written in Arabic, and what is written there is positive commandments and those from which one is warned are negative commandments, because in Arabic you have to call them both “commandments.”
And now he comes to Hebrew. “And the term that includes them together in the Hebrew language is decree.” Yes—royal decrees. “And likewise the Sages called every commandment, whether positive or negative, a royal decree.” Meaning, Maimonides says that the Hebrew word that joins positive and negative commandments is gezeirah, decree. Therefore they really should have been called positive decrees and negative decrees. The terminology “positive commandments” and “negative commandments” is really a translation from Arabic. In Hebrew it is not correct to use this terminology, because the term “commandment” really belongs only to positive commandments and not to negative ones.
Now here I want to note something. It’s a very interesting point on the linguistic-philosophical level. A rather amateur linguist but very famous one named Whorf pointed this out, and afterward there were many discussions of the matter. Very often, when we do not have suitable terminology in a language, that imposes limits on our thinking as well. The example I’ve already given—also in the Petah Tikva class, I think more than once—is that I once read an article, in Nature or Science, I no longer remember, about sociologists or anthropologists who went to study a tribe in the forests of Brazil called the Pirahã tribe—I’m spelling it as it appears in Hebrew; I don’t remember exactly how it is in English.
That tribe belongs to a group of tribes around the world—there are other places where this exists—whose counting system is divided into three. In English it’s called a one-two-many system. That is, their counting system contains three elements: one, two, and many. What does one, two, and many mean? It means that if you show them five stones and ask how many stones there are, they say “many.” If you show them fifteen—many. Five hundred—many. For one or two they have separate words.
Now that article described in a very fascinating way—even though there were several conclusions there that I didn’t agree with, at least based on what they described—but it really was a fascinating description of the process they went through there. They started asking the people there all kinds of questions that to us seem really stupid. When you compare, say, three and one, and ask this tribesman where there is more, then of course he points to three, because that is many and that is one. Many is more than one. But when you ask him where there is more, three or four, he does not know how to answer. He doesn’t know what there is more of. This is many and that is many.
Now what is interesting, as far as I remember, is that if you place before him, say, three versus a hundred, then he does know how to answer. Meaning, he understands that there is such a concept as “more” even within this general concept called many. He understands that under “many”—under the enormous umbrella, yes—under that “many” there are all sorts of quantities, and there is more and less even under that concept. But his resolution is limited because of the words in the language. Meaning, he has the understanding—the basic understanding. He understands what “more” means even when we go beyond one and two. But he cannot answer the question of which is more between three and four, because he doesn’t have two words in the language to say that this is three and this is four.
And indeed, after they quickly taught them the next numerals there—three, four, five, six—they immediately succeeded in answering which is more, three or four, five or six, no problem, because the basic ability of course was there. What limited them was the lack of linguistic ability. In other words, their language didn’t enable them to make those fine distinctions. There were all sorts of claims there about what comes first, thought or language. I think it’s pretty clear that it goes back and forth, each influences the other. There the conclusions seemed to me a bit simplistic. But in principle it is clear that there is also an effect of language on thought, and not only the other way around.
The example always given in this context is the number of terms in Eskimo languages for snow. We may see two things like that and for us it’s just snow and snow, but the Eskimo would probably look at us as people who are simply blind: what, you don’t see that these are two different things? This is snow and this is slush. Meaning, it doesn’t look the same to him at all. And we don’t have words in the language, and so it is difficult for us as well to distinguish between those two concepts.
Why am I giving this introduction? Because let’s return for a moment to the distinction Maimonides makes here between positive and negative commandments. Positive and negative commandments have what Maimonides calls an ambivalent relation. On the one hand, they are not the same thing. It is not correct to call a negative commandment a “commandment”; it is only a borrowed use of the term commandment. On the other hand, Maimonides says—and he says this in the same sentence—they have something in common. There is something of the matter of command also in negative commandments.
Now in languages where there is no distinction—where there is no word that describes positive and negative commandments differently—then one of two things happens. If you understand that they have something in common, then you attach a borrowed word to them, and you call negative commandments also “commandments,” and you lose the ability to understand that these are two different things. You don’t understand at all, at first, what Maimonides is writing here, that it’s not the same thing. What do you mean it’s not the same thing? They are commandments. There is a commandment to observe the Sabbath, there is a commandment to honor parents, and there is a commandment not to eat pork. True, they are different commandments with different content, but the commanding dimension in them is the same thing, what’s the difference?
And I think most people among us, if you ask them, that’s the initial conception. The initial conception is that it’s basically the same thing. There is no principled, logical, linguistic difference between positive and negative commandments any more than there is between two different positive commandments that command different content. There is nothing essential about commanding no as opposed to commanding yes. Especially if we remember that there are negative commandments that can command me to act. Meaning, it’s not even a difference in the form of execution or fulfillment.
And therefore I’m saying that if we have this understanding—this tension—that on the one hand there is something shared by positive and negative commandments, but on the other hand they are not the same thing, they are two species under one genus. That’s usually how things are classified: the world is classified into genera, and under each genus there are various species, and so on. So we can say that positive and negative commandments are two species under one genus. The genus is decree, and the species are positive commandment and negative prohibition. These are two species under the genus decree.
Now this structure is a complete structure. Why? Because it describes both the fact that both fall under the same genus—there is a connection between them—but also the fact that they are two different species under the same genus. It’s not the same species. Meaning there are also differences between them. Now linguistic expressions can make it hard for us to grasp one or the other of these two aspects. Either we won’t grasp that there is any difference between the two things at all, or we won’t grasp that there is a connection between the two things. Maybe they are two completely different things. Someone could look at them and say, what’s the connection? Here they command you to do something, here they tell you not to do something, or prevent you from doing something. What is shared between those two things at all?
And the linguistic expressions—the linguistic expressions therefore—and Maimonides takes the trouble here to give some kind of introduction because he understands there is a linguistic-logical confusion here, and the limits of language often project onto an inability to grasp the essence that the language describes. We’ll soon see how he applies this in the root. But for that reason he devotes this fairly long paragraph to giving this linguistic introduction. Why is it important? Because Maimonides really understands that there is a subtle point here, and it is subtle in both directions. It is subtle also in the sense that there is, after all, something shared by positive commandments and negative commandments—they are not totally alien to one another—and on the other hand it is not exactly the same thing. There are differences too. It is not exactly the same thing to tell a person to do and to tell a person not to do.
I’ll just give you an example from modern legal systems—not only modern ones, but mainly modern. In principle there are no positive commandments. There are only negative commandments. Since a modern legal system in a democratic state at least is a system that does not tell you what to do; it only tells you what to avoid: don’t harm someone else. Of course, practically, as I said earlier, there certainly are legal commands in the Israeli legal system, for example. There is a command to serve in the army; there is a command to pay taxes; those seem to be positive commandments. But on the conceptual level they are really negative commandments. There is punishment for someone who does not pay taxes or does not serve in the army. There are no positive commandments; the legislator does not give reward to one who fulfills these things. It only has practical significance for punishment of one who does not fulfill them. Therefore in the essential sense, in law there are really no positive commandments; it is all negative commandments. Only some negative commandments expect me to perform something, like in Jewish law, and some negative commandments expect me to refrain from performing something. But both are two kinds of negative commandments. Because basically the essential aspect in them is the negative aspect: what happens if you do not do it? Then you are punished. The fact that you did do it—fine, you won’t get a prize for that. There is no positive commandment here.
Here’s an example: if a person lived in a world where there was only law, with no halakhic context at all, I can imagine a person who simply would not understand what a positive commandment is. He would understand only negative commandments. Again, negative commandments including those that tell you to do something, but in the sense that if you do not do it, you will be punished. But he would not understand the essential concept of a positive commandment. By the way, I think lawyers—I’ve spoken to several, incidentally—when I speak with them about this matter, I think they don’t really understand what a positive commandment is. They really identify a positive commandment with actual action. In Jewish law it is not like that, and the essence of a positive commandment has nothing to do with actual action versus refraining from action. And I think this mistake stems precisely from the fact that in their world there is no such thing. All there is are only negative commandments, some of which tell you to do, like taxes and army service, and some of which tell you not to do, like not going through a red light.
So linguistic limitations often dictate some lack of understanding of the contents that language describes. And now that is basically what was important for our purposes, but I’ll continue a bit more just so you can see what Maimonides does with it.
So now I’m reading just a little from the next paragraph. “However, negation of obligation is another matter.” Remember, the topic of the root is that negation of obligation is not counted among the commandments. “Negation of obligation is another matter, and that is when you negate a predicate of a subject, and it has nothing at all of the matter of command.” Meaning, what distinguishes negation of obligation? That it has no connection to command.
Now notice—command, the text was written in Arabic. It’s very important to be aware of that, because when he says “it has nothing of the matter of command,” a correct translator really should have translated here “it has nothing of the matter of decree,” not “command.” Since he is really speaking about negative commandments. And what he wants to say is that negation of obligation is not a negative commandment. But how does he say that in Arabic? In Arabic there is no word for it, so he says, “it has nothing at all of the matter of command.” The correct Hebrew translation should have been “it has nothing at all of the matter of decree,” or “of the matter of prohibition,” if you like.
“As when you say: so-and-so did not eat last night; so-and-so did not drink wine; Reuven is not Shimon’s father; and the like. All these are negation of obligation; there is not a trace of command in them.” What does that mean? If I say, so-and-so did not eat dinner last night, then I said “not.” Is that “not” a command? No, it negates. You negate a predicate of a subject. So-and-so did not eat dinner. Okay? So basically, in the language I started with—and here I’m closing the circle—this is a declarative sentence, not an imperative sentence. And if so, it does not belong to the world of commandments. You cannot count such a verse or sentence as a commandment—not as a positive commandment, obviously, but also not as a negative commandment, because the “not” is not a prohibitive “do not.” It simply comes to negate a predicate of a subject. That’s all. It is not descriptive? No—it is “not” in declaration, not “not” in command. “All these are negation of obligation; there is not a trace of command in them.”
Now that is of course trivial. It’s trivial because what exactly would we expect to count if it says so-and-so did not eat last night? What would you expect to count among the commandments? Suppose I were not alert to Maimonides’ distinction between negation of obligation and prohibition—how could I interpret such a thing as a prohibition? What does “so-and-so did not eat last night” mean? It describes something. No one would ever think to count that among the commandments. Maimonides means to say—he continues here with more linguistic introductions, about the relation between command and future tense. He claims that in every language command is expressed in the language of the future. I’m not sure; I’m not proficient enough in languages. But command and future are similar grammatical forms.
But here, let’s just take one example briefly. “And this escaped our predecessors,” he means the Behag, “to the point that he counted ‘She shall not go out as the male slaves go out,’ and he did not know that this is negation, not prohibition.” Now “She shall not go out as the male slaves go out” is not already a sentence like “Reuven did not eat dinner last night,” right? Why not? Because “Reuven did not eat dinner last night” is the description of a fact. It doesn’t matter whether it’s a positive fact or a negative fact, but facts do not enter the count of commandments, right? Because they are declarative sentences and not imperative sentences. That’s what I discussed at the beginning.
Maimonides made all these introductions in order to get to this sentence. What do we do with a verse that says, “She shall not go out as the male slaves go out”? It is speaking about a Canaanite maidservant, who if the master damages one of her limbs, she does not go free, unlike a male slave. So Maimonides says such a thing is negation of obligation and not prohibition, and therefore it is not counted among the commandments. Here it is no longer trivial. “So-and-so did not eat dinner last night” is trivial—who would ever think to count that? But this sentence is a sentence connected to Jewish law. Basically it tells me that there is no emancipation through injury to limbs in the case of a Canaanite maidservant. So Maimonides’ claim is that this is negation of obligation and not prohibition, and therefore still it is not counted.
I won’t read it inside; I’ll just explain orally. What Maimonides is basically saying is that “She shall not go out as the male slaves go out” is not commanding you anything. What it tells you is that the law that exists for a male slave does not exist for a maidservant. That’s all. For a slave, when you instruct regarding emancipation through injury to limbs—if you injured him in some major limb, then he goes free—that’s a commandment: you have to set him free if you injured him. With a maidservant… with a maidservant they’re not telling you—there is no prohibition on setting her free, no obligation to set her free; they are saying that the law of emancipation through injury to limbs does not apply to her. It is the negation of a certain law in a certain circumstantial context. Meaning, that law does not exist regarding a maidservant. Therefore this thing commands nothing. There is nothing of command in it, and Maimonides calls it negation of obligation, and this thing is not counted among the commandments. You will not find in Maimonides a commandment stating that a Canaanite maidservant does not go free through injury to limbs. By the way, in the Behag it is counted among the commandments. Therefore Maimonides says this escaped our predecessors—the Behag—who did count this as a commandment. And Maimonides says that is a mistake: this thing is negation of obligation and not prohibition.
What distinguishes this sentence from the sentence “So-and-so did not eat dinner last night”? The difference is that neither commands me anything. Both are negation of obligation, but there is still a difference. The claim that emancipation through injury to limbs does not apply to a maidservant is a claim that belongs to the normative plane. It is a claim whose subject matter is Jewish law. “So-and-so did not eat dinner last night” is a claim about life, describing some fact, a neutral fact. Therefore there isn’t even a first thought of putting it into the count of commandments.
This sentence, “She shall not go out as the male slaves go out,” is a sentence that categorically belongs to Jewish law. After all, it will appear in the Shulchan Arukh. The Shulchan Arukh will say that with regard to a maidservant the law of emancipation through injury to limbs does not apply. But it will not be a negative commandment. Why? Because it does not command me anything. It only defines where the law applies and where it does not apply. It neither commands nor forbids me anything. There is no prohibition on me setting her free. That’s not what it comes to prohibit. It comes to negate, lest you think there is an obligation here to set her free—no, there is no obligation here to set her free.
So the claim belongs categorically to the halakhic sphere, not to the factual sphere like “So-and-so did not eat dinner last night.” But even in the normative sphere there are claims—there are sentences—that do not command me anything, do not prohibit me, neither prohibition nor positive command, and therefore they are not counted. And this now returns us and illuminates in an additional light the map that Maimonides described.
And now I connect this also to the introduction I gave. Maimonides is basically telling us that there are positive commandments and negative commandments, and they both belong to the same genus, what he calls decree in Hebrew, with positive commandment and prohibition—let’s now call them positive commandment and prohibition, because “positive commandment and negative commandment” is just the translation from Arabic. So really what should be here? A genus called decree, under which there are positive commandments and prohibitions. Okay? Now what does this structure really say? That prohibition and positive command share something. They are both decrees, but they are not the same thing.
Now why are they not the same thing? That’s pretty clear. One expects me to do something, a positive thing, and the other tells me to refrain. Right now I’m using this understanding of positive and negative commandments. But what do they share? What they share is that both are sentences that do not belong to the category of declarative sentences. Both, in the linguistic sense, are imperative sentences. Why? Because as opposed to a declarative sentence, an imperative sentence is not neutral. You can tell me “Murder is very bad.” “Murder is very bad” is a neutral description, because as far as I’m concerned it still doesn’t tell me whether I am obligated to do something about it or not. Maybe it’s a recommendation. Maybe if I decide I don’t want to do something bad then I won’t do it. But this thing is only a description. A description is a sentence with no color; it is neutral.
By contrast, a command is a sentence that says to you, is supposed to spur you, direct you in some direction. Push you to do, or stop you and tell you don’t do. It is not a neutral sentence, not a sentence you can just pass by and keep cheerfully humming as you continue. When you pass by it, it is supposed to do something to you. Either stop you or push you forward. Unlike a descriptive sentence, where okay, it said some fact—maybe I’ll draw conclusions from it, maybe not, but I don’t have to. In other words, what I do with it is up to me.
Therefore, what positive and negative commandments share is that both belong to the domain we call—and I don’t know whether this comes from Arabic, but it is accepted in Hebrew too—the domain of imperative sentences, as distinct from declarative sentences. And if I distinguished in the Torah between these two kinds of sentences at the outset, then of course when Rashi says “This month shall be for you the beginning of months,” and all the commandments are the essence of the Torah, he obviously means both positive and negative commandments. That is as distinct from declarative sentences that describe—events, describe who knows what, things that happened there, describe people—but they only describe. They are neutral sentences.
In analytic ethics and philosophy this distinction is called descriptive sentences and prescriptive sentences. Descriptive means they describe something. Descriptive sentences can also describe a norm. “According to Israeli law it is forbidden to steal.” That is still a neutral sentence. Neutral, because as far as I am concerned it still doesn’t say anything. Only if you add that this is Israeli law and it obligates me, then it becomes something prescriptive. Something I can’t just pass by and say okay, nice to know that fact, I’ve been enriched by one more fact, and move on. No—the fact tells me something that obligates me, either to do or not to do. That is basically this world of imperative or prescriptive sentences.
Now when we speak about Jewish law and reality, basically behind this distinction between Jewish law and reality sits the distinction I’ve discussed here. Therefore all this is a conceptual introduction to the topic of Jewish law and reality, which is the topic of this series. Because reality by its very nature is described by declarative sentences. Fine—there are declarative sentences, and even laws of physics are declarative sentences. They are sentences that describe the world, the physics of the world. Okay? Declarative sentences. They can be sophisticated, they can perhaps be disputed, one can argue about them, but fundamentally they are declarative sentences. They are sentences of which you can say true or false.
Jewish law, like ethics in the moral sense, or law, or the rules of basketball, or something like that, consists of sentences of a different type. These are not descriptive sentences but prescriptive sentences. They are sentences that command me or forbid me—yes, or warn or command. So the difference between Jewish law and reality—one of the differences, the linguistic difference—is the question of what kind of sentences governs each of these categories. In the category of facts, the type of sentence is declarative. In the halakhic category, the type of sentence is imperative. And if I return to the red traffic light, until there is a command, there is no law. Therefore one can tell me that going through a red light is dangerous, going through a red light is inconsiderate, it’s immoral—everything can be said to me. But all of that is still declarative language. Only from the moment a law was enacted forbidding crossing on red did it become a prescriptive sentence, a commanding sentence. I am assuming a certain premise here—yes, there is a dispute in legal theory between positivism and natural law. I’m assuming a positivist view for the moment.
Now the point I want to expand on at this stage, in light of what I’ve said, is that we need to understand two things: what the relation is between declarative sentences and imperative sentences, or between facts or reality and Jewish law. These are parallel questions—not identical, but parallel. And now that really takes us into the topic; until here it was all introduction.
So here again there is a double relation. On the one hand, every halakhic ruling deals with a given factual situation. Suppose a religious court or a rabbi has to decide a halakhic issue. At the first stage, he is supposed to ascertain reality. What are the facts? After I clarify the facts, I can apply the halakhic instruction to those circumstances. What does Jewish law say is permitted, required, or forbidden to do in those given circumstances? Therefore there is a close connection between Jewish law and reality. Jewish law always speaks about reality. There are halakhot for messianic times, or laws dealing with matters that are not realistic, and the Talmud already asks: what is the halakhic significance for messianic times? The Talmud asks: what practical difference does it make? Jewish law is always supposed to deal with factual circumstances—not only existing ones, but probably also circumstances that are applicable in practice. Sometimes one discusses impractical circumstances, but only in order to clarify the principle, and afterward to apply it in more realistic circumstances. So that is one connection between facts and Jewish law, or between reality and Jewish law.
The second connection goes the other way. Jewish law can never be derived from facts alone. This is what is called David Hume’s distinction between ought and is. Ought—what ought to be, the normative—and is, the existing. The is is the facts—what exists, what is true, what is here. The ought is what ought to be. You cannot derive ought from is. Following Moore in a later period, people often attach to this the label “the naturalistic fallacy.” Philosophical purists get very annoyed when it’s called that because it’s not exactly the same thing. The naturalistic fallacy is something a bit different, but for our purposes it doesn’t matter. We can call it the naturalistic fallacy—that’s the common term.
So the naturalistic fallacy basically tells me that normative claims, or the category of decrees—what Maimonides called it earlier—cannot be derived from facts. When I say “Murder is forbidden,” that is simply the result of what I described until now. When I say “Murder is forbidden,” can I derive that from the factual claim that murder causes suffering, say, to the family of the murdered person? Let’s say I murdered him painlessly, but his family still suffers, for example. Okay? And let’s say this really were the rational or, I don’t know, moral basis for the prohibition on murder. It probably isn’t the basis, but suppose it were. Still, even if it were the basis, that basis would not be enough. If I tell a person that murder causes suffering to these or those people, I still have not told him the sentence “Murder is forbidden.” The claim that murder is forbidden is a command, a norm, and it cannot be derived from declarative sentences alone. That is called the naturalistic fallacy.
When I say, “This picture has many colors in it, therefore this picture is beautiful,” that is an invalid argument at the logical level. Why? Not because many colors are not always beautiful—let’s even say I think they are. That’s not the problem. The problem is not aesthetics; the problem is logic. When I say there are many colors here, I described something. That is a declarative sentence: this picture has many colors in it. In order to determine that it is beautiful, I need to add another assumption: that what has many colors in it is beautiful. Right? Without that I cannot derive the conclusion that this picture is beautiful.
Now for our purposes, aesthetic judgment and ethical judgment have the same logic. Meaning, those two kinds of judgment—and also halakhic judgment and legal judgment—all kinds of judgment or norms cannot be derived from facts. Someone who derives judgments from facts is making a logical mistake. It cannot be; it is a fallacy. What is needed in order to derive judgment from a fact? You need to add a bridge principle. As I said earlier, for example, if the assumption is that this picture has many colors, how can I jump from that to the conclusion that the picture is beautiful? If I add the assumption that what has many colors is beautiful. What is the nature of this additional assumption? Is it factual? Is it normative? To which of the two categories does it belong? It turns out that it belongs to neither of them, but is a bridge principle. It is the principle that ties me from the facts to the norms.
I want to sharpen this point a bit more. I’ll bring an example that I also gave in previous classes in Petah Tikva. Let’s take the Talmud in Bava Batra 5a. The Talmud there discusses laws of claimant and defendant. A person borrowed 100 shekels from his friend, and now the lender comes and demands the borrower. He says: return the 100 shekels that I lent you. The borrower—this is an ordinary loan, where an unstipulated loan is for 30 days. The claim came after a week, okay? He lent it to me a week ago, and after a week he comes and says please bring back the money. I could tell him: wait another three weeks, because an unstipulated loan is 30 days. But I didn’t tell him that. I told him: what do you want? I already returned it to you yesterday. I already repaid you.
The Talmud says I am not believed. Why? Because there is a presumption that a person does not repay within the term. If you say you repaid within the term, you are apparently lying—or at least the burden of proof is on you—because a person generally does not repay before he is obligated to. Yes? An assessment of reality. Okay.
Now suppose we come to another period or another place where the factual assessment has changed. People do repay within the term. I don’t know—because of cultural reasons or economic reasons of one kind or another. For example, in a place where there is a heter iska, so in effect you pay interest. Maybe it’s not called interest, but it’s basically interest. Halakhically maybe it’s not called interest, but in principle you’re paying interest. So obviously if money suddenly falls into your hands and you can repay the loan, there will be quite a few people who say okay, I can, like with a mortgage, pay off the mortgage so as not to accumulate or have to pay the expected interest if I keep holding it. Under such circumstances, it is entirely reasonable if a person comes and says I repaid, even if it’s within the term. Right?
Now I don’t think there would be any halakhic authority who would imagine that if I live under circumstances where people do repay within the term, then because the Talmud says that a person is not believed to say “I repaid within the term,” we therefore would not accept that claim. An explicit Talmud! I don’t think there is any judge or decisor who would say such a thing. Why? Because it is obvious that the Talmud spoke about certain circumstances that prevailed then. But if at another time or place different circumstances prevail, then adapt your conduct accordingly.
Now the big question is: as a result, am I supposed to cut Bava Batra 5a out and throw it into the Cairo Geniza, because the passage is unnecessary? Right? There is nothing to learn from it—it’s no longer relevant to us, reality is different and therefore the ruling of the passage is no longer relevant. I argue no. Why? And here this returns me to what we said earlier.
I argue that what the passage comes to teach me is not the fact that people are not inclined to repay before the due date. That is a psychological fact. Go to the psychology department or just look around and get an impression and arrive at a conclusion about what people tend to do and what is likely or unlikely. The Talmud does not come to teach me facts. The Talmud comes to teach me the rule that says that if there is some presumption or other, then one may use it to extract money, which is a major novelty. Because according to—the Torah says “by the testimony of two witnesses shall a matter be established.” And if you want to extract money from me, the burden of proof is on you: one who seeks to extract from another bears the burden of proof. In principle you are supposed to bring two witnesses. With fewer than two witnesses you cannot extract money.
Now notice: here the lender is claiming money from me, and I say to him, “I repaid.” Who is in possession? Who is the extractor? The lender is the extractor and I am the one in possession. In principle the burden of proof should have been on him. And here suddenly they tell me no: you claim that you repaid within the term? Prove it. The burden of proof is on you even though you are in possession. Why? Because there is a presumption against you. The presumption is that people do not repay within the term. What you are saying is not plausible. Okay? Therefore the burden of proof flips, and now you are the one who will have to bring evidence or witnesses that you repaid within the term.
That is the novelty of the passage. The novelty of the passage is not the fact that people are not inclined to repay within the term. The novelty of the passage is that if there is some fact—and I don’t care which fact, facts can change, check this however one checks psychological facts—but given a fact, once you concluded that the relevant prevailing fact here is this fact, that can reverse the legal burden of proof, and can place the burden of proof on the defendant instead of the plaintiff. That is a novelty in Jewish law, not a novelty in facts.
And that brings me back to what I said earlier. Meaning, the halakhic ruling issued in Bava Batra is a ruling that speaks about facts. If the facts are that a person does not repay within the term, the halakhic rule relevant to that matter says that if you claim to have repaid within the term, the burden of proof is on you. This demonstrates the first connection between Jewish law and facts: that Jewish law always applies to certain factual circumstances.
On the other hand, the circumstances themselves have no sanctity. They can change. That is not Torah. So what is? The circumstances also do not dictate the Jewish law. What dictates the Jewish law? What dictates the Jewish law is the bridge principle. And this really means the following: the assumption is that a person does not repay within the term. I’m now laying this out in a logical structure. The assumption is that a person does not repay within the term. The bridge principle says that if there is such an assumption, it creates a presumption, and that presumption can reverse the burden of proof. Conclusion: when a person claims “I repaid within the term,” given that in this environment people do not repay within the term, the burden of proof shifts to him. That is the conclusion.
So I have an assumption that is factual: people do not repay within the term. I have a bridge principle that says: if you have such a factual assumption, you may use it in the laws of claimant and defendant. The conclusion: the burden of proof is on the one who says “I repaid within the term.” Which of these three components is Torah? The assumption, the conclusion, or the bridge principle? I argue that it is neither the assumption nor the conclusion. The assumption is a fact, and the conclusion is the result of applying the bridge principle to the fact. Torah in its essence is the bridge principle. And therefore there is no need to throw Bava Batra 5a in the trash. Bava Batra 5a teaches me a lesson that is very important for me also today, because it teaches me that if there is some presumption, whatever the presumption may be—it changes by time and place—but after I have checked and reached a conclusion about what the relevant presumptions are, now the bridge principle comes and says that these presumptions can shift the burden of proof. They operate on the evidentiary playing field. And I learned that from the Talmud in Bava Batra.
Now what will the conclusion be? The conclusion will be that if I claim I repaid within the term, I will be believed. So it turns out that my assumption does not fit Bava Batra, because my assumption is that people do repay within the term, whereas there it says they do not. My conclusion also does not fit Bava Batra, because I say I am believed to claim I repaid within the term—that is, the judge says I am believed—and in Bava Batra it says I am not believed. So it doesn’t fit either in the assumption or in the conclusion. What does remain the same? The bridge principle. Because the same bridge principle, when it operates on a different factual situation, will yield a different conclusion. And the essence of Torah is only the bridge principles, not the assumptions and not the conclusions.
This is an important point, because in the end when I say that the naturalistic fallacy tells me that I cannot derive a normative conclusion from a fact, what do I need to add? I need to add the bridge principle that ties the facts to the judgment—whether aesthetic, ethical, halakhic, and so on. Torah—what is Torah? It is only the bridge principle. Torah is the bridge principle alone. Therefore when someone brings me the Talmud in Bava Batra and says, wait a second, a person is not believed to say he repaid within the term, and I rule that a person is believed—he claims he repaid within the term and I say he is believed—am I going against the Talmud? The answer is no. Because what the Talmud says is not the conclusion but the bridge principle. It is the Talmud’s bridge principle that I am following. I am acting exactly in accordance with it. It’s just that because the circumstances are different, the result is also different.
Therefore what I want to claim—and with this I’ll finish—is that in this gap between facts and halakhic determinations sit bridge principles. And Torah is the bridge principles, not the facts. And this brings me back to Rashi, and with this I’ll finish. We find that in the Talmud there is really a very similar characteristic to what we saw in Scripture, or in Rabbi Yitzchak’s difficulty on Scripture in Rashi. There too he assumed that the main thing is the norms and not the facts, and here too we see that the facts have no sanctity. The facts that the Talmud establishes can change, and I will assume the relevant facts, not the facts that appear in the Talmud.
So what is important? What is important is the normative determination of which norm applies to these facts. That is the essence of the Talmud and also the essence of the Torah. And that is, in short—or that is the initial summary—of the relationship between reality and Jewish law. Reality is factual claims; it is declarative sentences. Jewish law is imperative sentences. But the essence of Torah is the bridge that moves me from declarative claims, from declarative sentences—or factual claims, that’s a better way to say it—to imperative sentences. That bridge principle is what is called Torah. Or, by the way, that is true also of ethics; that is also what is called morality.
In morality too, at the principled level—say, I am not allowed to hit someone, right? That’s a moral principle. But if there is someone who is a masochist, and he very much likes being hit, I assume it would be permitted to hit him. Is that a different morality in such a place? No, I claim it is the same morality. Morality says one should do what is pleasant for a person and not do what causes him suffering. What is pleasant for a person and what causes him suffering may depend on time and place. And therefore moral principles too are built according to exactly the same logic. Moral principles too are only bridge principles. They are not the factual assumption and they are not the norms that apply to the facts, but rather the connection between the norms and the facts. That is really the moral principle—not the conclusion and not the assumption. And the same is true of the halakhic aspect. Maybe next time I’ll dig a bit more into this point before we continue.
I’ll stop here, and I’ll open the microphones. I’ll release the—first of all, let’s cancel the—one second. Okay, I’m now allowing everyone to unmute themselves, whoever wants. And I just ask, still leave it off by default; now it depends on you, not on me, and only whoever is speaking should open the microphone, because otherwise it will just be hard for us, hard to talk. So first of all maybe we’ll start with comments or questions relating to the class itself, and afterward if there are other things people want to discuss, that’s also possible. Okay?
[Speaker B] None? Okay. Excellent. First time, second time. Miki?
[Speaker C] Yes. Can you hear me? Yes, yes. Even the bridge principles can be debated, no? They’re not supposedly meant to be unequivocal? If this is Torah, then maybe they’re supposed to be unequivocal.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Torah is not something unequivocal, and it’s also not necessarily from the Holy One, blessed be He. But that’s what’s called Torah, the bridge principles. We’ll also talk a bit about the question of dispute and how rigid it is, but for now this introduction is just a conceptual introduction. Okay.
[Speaker D] Wait, can we ask questions unrelated to the class?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Okay, if we’re done with the class-related comments, then yes.
[Speaker D] Fine, so I’ll ask a question that relates to current events. There was that whole issue with Edelstein, that he basically didn’t comply with the Supreme Court ruling and all that. So I wanted to ask you: is it legitimate to refuse the Supreme Court, especially in that case, or is it simply forbidden to refuse, except in a case where there’s a black flag flying over the matter?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Well, you read my column on the site—I wrote about it. In my view there’s no justification whatsoever for refusal in a context like this. It’s all written in the ruling itself. I read it, and I completely agree with what’s written there. I don’t think I need to elaborate beyond what the judges wrote. There is a clear legal directive here, and I see no justification for refusal. I can understand someone—for example, they brought up on the site, in the discussion there, an example involving Rabbi Peretz once, I think, where he refused to register someone as Jewish even though the court required him to register him as Jewish, and then he resigned. Someone mentioned that; I don’t remember the story exactly right now. There too it’s problematic, but there I can understand it more, because you have some kind of, say, clear halakhic / of Jewish law prohibition—or at least in his eyes it was a clear halakhic / of Jewish law prohibition. I’m not sure it was a halakhic / of Jewish law prohibition. And therefore he says: I’m not willing to do it, and I resign—like conscientious objection. Conscientious objection is something that can also apply to officeholders, not only to private individuals, I think. Also to a commander in the army, not only to a soldier. If he receives some order that is not manifestly illegal—if it’s manifestly illegal, he must refuse. I’m talking about an order that is legal but violates his conscience. In that case there is legitimacy to refuse and bear the consequences. It’s just that, in my assessment, I don’t think Yuli Edelstein can really claim here that this was, from his standpoint, against a dictate of conscience. It was against his interests, in my estimation. And therefore in my view it was completely unjustified. It was a scandal, I’d even say.
[Speaker D] I’d just suggest, for the sake of good order, that if anyone has a question they should raise their hand so it won’t be…
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Okay, for now there still aren’t many people jumping in, so even if people interrupt, it’s not terrible.
[Speaker E] As a follow-up question, maybe just to what Oren asked—I didn’t really understand whether you were referring to the issue of resignation or to the very fact that he considered not complying and sort of dragged things out.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] He has the right to resign—let him resign. But first of all, when he resigns, in those two days after he resigned, he still remains Speaker of the Knesset until Friday. And as long as he is Speaker of the Knesset, the Supreme Court ruling is binding on him.
[Speaker C] Can I note something in that context for a second? It seems to me you were being asked this question as a rabbi. And not as your political opinion and so on. So the question is whether, in your view, your answer was as a rabbi, as a halakhic decisor, as someone speaking about morality, or not. Because I’ll point out that legally, Edelstein interpreted the law, of course, in his own favor—an interpretation that in my view was legitimate. So the question is whether an interpretation of the law, in the political game we’re seeing and where it leads, is connected to those kinds of moral standards, when I can give you a really purposive interpretation very much in his favor, in my opinion.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] I’ll tell you in two respects. First, this brings us right back to the class. Because I didn’t discuss this from the political angle at all. Even if I’m completely with Edelstein and against Blue and White, or against the conclusions of the Supreme Court and where the Supreme Court is leading—not the Court’s argument—I think these things need to be discussed independently of your political position. And the position I’m expressing here is detached from my political stance, at least as much as I’m able to examine myself. No one can be sure they’re not biased, but I tried to examine myself and I think I’m speaking here to the issue itself. I think that even if this interpretation was, in his eyes, a legitimate interpretation—in my eyes it’s absurd—but even if this interpretation was a legitimate interpretation in his eyes, the one who decides on the legal level is the Supreme Court. And therefore even if there is another interpretation, it doesn’t matter, because on the legal level the decisive ruling is the Supreme Court’s ruling. That too is part of the legal system. Questions of authority are also part of the legal system. So if this had to do with conscientious refusal, he would say: look, not because I interpret the law differently—I’m simply not willing to do this, like Rabbi Peretz with registration. I understand—a person resigns because he’s unwilling to perform an act that violates his conscience. But in my estimation—and again, he can always play innocent and say no—but in my estimation that wasn’t the case here. Here there were interests, not values that made him incapable of doing such a thing.
[Speaker C] But in that context, the element of justiciability also comes in—whether everything is justiciable or not. The Supreme Court often chooses not to intervene in political action; it’s very cautious. In this case, not only was it not cautious—it decided to intervene. Possibly for reasons, but for broader reasons that are not necessarily
[Speaker D] legal-interpretive reasons.
[Speaker C] No, what I’m trying to argue is that there weren’t necessarily good guys and bad guys here. There’s a whole complex of things here. The Supreme Court also had a broader public consideration—you can see it in the rulings too—and so did Yuli Edelstein and so on, meaning the political people. And I’m saying I don’t know whether you can transfer this into that categorical morality.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] It’s not categorical. I’m not talking about morality, I’m talking about law. On the legal level, what binds is what the Supreme Court determines. If the Knesset wanted the Court not to intervene, then let it legislate an override clause saying the Court can’t intervene. That’s all. As long as it hasn’t legislated that, and this is the Supreme Court’s interpretation, that’s what binds. That’s all. A fair or sensible legal-governing system is supposed to function that way.
[Speaker C] I thought you argued earlier, before the Supreme Court ruled, that what he did was illegal, wrong, and so on. In this case you’re saying you’re not insisting on that—you’re only saying that once the Supreme Court ruled, he was obligated to comply. That’s all you’re talking about.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] I’m making both claims.
[Speaker C] The first claim too? Then the first claim is—wait, in what sense do you have superiority in legal interpretation over others?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] That’s why I’m explaining—I’m making both claims. The first claim is simply that I agree with the position expressed by the Supreme Court and not with Yuli Edelstein’s position. Now, you can say that Yuli Edelstein has a different interpretation and I’m not a bigger legal expert than he is—that may be true. The second claim is a claim independent of the question of what you think on the merits: once the Supreme Court has ruled, that is the legally binding position.
[Speaker C] And I have a question—do you also have an opinion about the very fact of the Supreme Court’s intervention in this case? After all, sometimes it chooses not to intervene. What do you say about the intervention itself? Was there an obligation to intervene in this case? Meaning, there are cases of political action in which the Supreme Court refrains from intervening, and that too is legitimate; in this case was there indeed an obligation to intervene? Is that maybe the bridge principle—or not—whether there was an obligation to intervene?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] There are cases in which it restrains itself from intervening, and I criticize that. For example, when it refrains from disqualifying certain candidates, say from the Joint List—at least some of them—in my view that’s a scandal on the legal level. Fine. And then I have criticism of it in that area, and still, of course, what it determines is what binds, despite all my criticism that it’s a scandal in my eyes.
[Speaker B] Yes.
[Speaker E] Rabbi, why did you think that in this case they were allowed to intervene and that it was actually good that they intervened? Because on the face of it, from what I understood, at least on the formal level in terms of the Knesset rules, he’s the only one authorized to decide when the committee will be organized.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Look, that gets us into somewhat complicated legal questions, and I really am not a legal expert, so I’m not speaking here with authority. First of all, even on the legal level, that’s not precise, because legally there is a clause in the law that overrides provisions in the rules, and that’s written in the ruling as well. The clause in the law says that it has to be appointed by the establishment of the government—but “by the establishment of the government” is only an upper limit. It doesn’t mean it’s always reasonable to postpone it until then. And that’s the second point, which is a broader point. On the site too I referred to a lecture by Solberg on this matter. Solberg, of all people, is on the other side of the divide—or almost on the other side of the divide—and this is the question of reasonableness. The Supreme Court developed a doctrine that isn’t anchored in statutory law, but it developed a doctrine according to which it may intervene even in situations where the action is legal but very, very unreasonable. Which, by the way, is controversial—not everyone agrees that such intervention is legitimate, and there are debates there about the proper dosage—but that’s what the Supreme Court decided. Now, if the Knesset wants to prevent this—and by the way this is a policy of Rab…
[Speaker C] Wait, Itzik, for that he has to rely on a constitutional principle. If the constitutional principle says that, say, purposive interpretation…
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] The constitutional principle is the separation of powers between the executive and legislative branches, in our case.
[Speaker C] And there’s a custom that there’s a correlation between the Speaker of the Knesset and the government and the coalition, and that’s been the practice all along. The proof is that Benny Gantz now appointed Meir Cohen to be Speaker of the Knesset because he feared that a minority party—in which Blue and White became a minority party—what?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] That’s irrelevant. I’m not arguing about whether there should be a connection between the government and the Speaker of the Knesset, or between the coalition and the Speaker of the Knesset. I’m arguing the point that if sixty-one members of Knesset think not, then they should be allowed to vote on it. Maybe you’re right—so what? That’s why, in my view, this is separation of powers, not the approach of what you think. Within a framework of separation of powers, the Knesset—which is sovereign and in principle above the government, though of course not in our case—can decide that it wants a Speaker who goes with the coalition.
[Speaker C] Yes, but understand that the sixty-one themselves are also a kind of coup in the sense that…
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] There are sixty-one.
[Speaker C] No, it’s not that simple, because they’re taking the Joint List only for this specific matter. No, no, exactly there the Speaker of the Knesset can now use his ability to postpone the election, because they took the Joint List—in my opinion they took the Joint List only for this matter, when it’s clear the Joint List won’t be part of the coalition, meaning it won’t be—wait—it won’t be part of the governing majority, it won’t be part of… so what?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] But they’re not talking about a coalition. There’s a majority in the Knesset that wants to elect a Speaker now.
[Speaker C] Tell me, why was it so important to them to elect one?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Why do you think that’s a crime? That’s what the majority of the Knesset wants.
[Speaker C] Miki, that’s not how it is, absolutely not. Exactly like that. But look—what’s happening now is overwhelming evidence that what Edelstein did was so legitimate, in my view.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] In my view, absolutely not. But okay, we’re already drifting.
[Speaker C] You know why—sorry—why I deliberately argued with you about this right now? Because in my humble opinion, Oren raised the question at a level that turned it into some question of a halakhic ruling, a question in morality and so on, and I’m returning it to the political field.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] But I’m arguing that that’s not correct. As for the question of what the correct legal interpretation is, of course one can argue; I’m not an authorized legal interpreter. But he asked a different question. After the Supreme Court has already determined an interpretation, even if I oppose it and even if I agree with it, is it legitimate to refuse? My claim is no. Understand? On the substantive question I also disagree with you, but that’s not the question Oren asked.
[Speaker E] Rabbi, even if indeed, from his perspective, this can be seen as the beginning of a path—let’s call it a negative path—in terms of separation of powers?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] I didn’t understand—when?
[Speaker E] I mean, if from a conscientious, value-based perspective, this intervention—this specific Supreme Court ruling—basically leads us down a road he cannot be party to.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] And that’s what I said—he can always pretend and say that from his perspective this is like Rabbi Peretz registering gentiles as Jews and that it violates his conscience. I estimate that’s disingenuous, and therefore I don’t accept the legitimacy of this move. But if that really is the case, then fine—that’s conscientious refusal. I just wasn’t convinced that that was really the issue, because in my eyes it was the Supreme Court that was taking care of separation of powers here, not Edelstein. The Supreme Court acted here on behalf of separation of powers. That was the constitutional ground on which it argued this was unreasonable. What Dafna said earlier, that you need a constitutional ground—the constitutional ground was exactly that: separation of powers. But not between the government, between the court and the Knesset; rather between the government and the Knesset. And our situation, by the way, is scandalous in this respect. The Knesset has no real significance. The government completely controls the Knesset, and that is democratically improper in principle.
[Speaker E] And what’s the criterion for deciding that this is reasonable? I mean, who says that now is the point at which it is indeed reasonable to intervene or not? Why not another week? Why not five days earlier? I mean, on what basis is this? It sounds—at least it feels—not clean.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] You’re assuming that anything without a sharp criterion isn’t clean. I’ve got news for you: there is almost nothing in the world that has a sharp criterion. And therefore in the end—and by the way this is part of the subjects I’ll discuss later in this series—sometimes reasonableness considerations are the only way to interpret a legal principle, a constitutional principle. What can you do? There’s nothing to do—we don’t have sharp criteria. When you say—I talked about this in a conversation after the previous class—yes, when you carry out what’s called a targeted killing, yes, which usually isn’t all that targeted, then you eliminate a terrorist and along with him you eliminate uninvolved people, whether his family or whoever happens to be nearby. Now, if you eliminate one such person, it’s generally thought that this is still justified if that terrorist poses a substantial danger to Israeli civilians. I say okay, within the framework of defending our citizens, killing one of theirs is still legitimate. I assume we’d both agree that dropping an atom bomb that kills millions of people around that terrorist is not legitimate. Now tell me: from what number does it stop being legitimate? Can you tell me?
[Speaker E] The heap paradox.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Yes, exactly. Now the question is whether that means that if so, then it’s all just agendas. I argue no—it’s not agendas, not necessarily. That is, there are many things—not many, almost everything in the world—is a matter of weights, what I call proportionality, a concept I very much dislike, because many times it’s a fig leaf for really doing whatever you want—but sometimes, yes. Even a stopped clock shows the right time sometimes.
[Speaker C] But Miki, not necessarily is the consideration only proportional. Because suppose only one innocent person was killed, and he’s someone close to us. Then he’d receive an entirely different weight.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Aha—even better. So that makes it even less sharp. You’re only strengthening what I said.
[Speaker C] No, but the claim is that there isn’t some… you can’t determine it clearly.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Exactly. That’s exactly what I said—that I can’t determine it clearly. Right.
[Speaker C] No, but it’s not that the heap principle here means we sense there’s a lot or a little. No, there are many more considerations that determine whether we…
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] All those considerations together—weigh them all and decide whether it’s proportional or not. That’s exactly what I’m saying: there is no line.
[Speaker C] Using the term “proportional” turns it into something in the ethical, moral realm, and it doesn’t necessarily belong there.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] What do you mean? I didn’t understand. I’m saying—fine, now I’m asking, nobody is close to us, okay? Now I’m asking: how many people not close to us is it justified to kill? Do you have an answer? You say there are other situations where there are additional considerations. Even better—that means it’s even less unequivocal.
[Speaker C] But if there’s no answer, then what does that mean from your perspective? What do you think?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] That there is still an answer. Because decisions do in fact get made here and there. The chief of staff made a decision that even five is justified. Are you saying he basically did something arbitrary?
[Speaker C] No, I’m saying justified in whose eyes? By what standard? It’s not absolute at all.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] So do you judge him? Do you put him in prison because he has no sharp criterion and can’t justify what he did?
[Speaker C] Am I from our side, from the enemy’s side, from the side of the UN—whose? Am I from the UN?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] From the UN, from our side, from whatever side you want. If it’s proportional in your eyes, then he’s okay. That’s all. Even without a sharp criterion.
[Speaker E] So you’re saying it simply depends on the case, on whoever… to go back to the Supreme Court case, on whoever happens to be heading the Supreme Court right now—it simply depends on them.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Except for one word. Except for “happens.” It depends on them because they are the authorized body. But I’m not claiming it’s arbitrary. There’s logic behind it. I, for example, strongly identify with the Supreme Court in Edelstein’s case. But fine—it may be… I can accept that someone else doesn’t identify with it; he thinks that in a case like this it was wrong to intervene. I completely identify with what they did. Very good. So therefore my claim is: leave it aside—right now they are the authorized body, and since they determined it, that is what binds. That’s all, even if you disagree. Besides that, I also agree, so I claim it’s not random.
[Speaker E] What I meant by “in the case”…
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] “In the case” basically means it’s just random, it’s a lottery, and so the question is who happens to sit there. I’m saying no, that’s incorrect. It was a correct decision. About something random you can’t say correct or incorrect. If it’s random, it’s random—whatever came out, came out. I’m claiming that this can be judged in terms of right and wrong.
[Speaker E] No, but
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Without criteria. There are no criteria.
[Speaker E] But you’re claiming it doesn’t depend on who sits there at the present moment. In other words, there is some correctness that doesn’t depend on the discretion of those people at this present moment.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] I didn’t say that on the factual level everyone who sat there would have reached the same decision—I’m not sure. I am saying that the decision that was reached was correct.
[Speaker C] What do you mean “correct”? I didn’t understand—what do you mean by correct?
[Speaker E] I don’t understand either.
[Speaker C] What is correct? If Stein had been sitting there and Elron had been sitting there, there could have been a completely different decision—and would you also have said that it wasn’t correct? Or what would you have said about it?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] I would have said it was incorrect, and I would obey it.
[Speaker C] So first of all, it’s legitimate to say that a Supreme Court ruling is correct or incorrect.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] I said—of course it’s legitimate.
[Speaker C] Even though we empowered them to decide for us?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] What does that have to do with it? What, is it forbidden to say it’s not correct? You just have to obey.
[Speaker C] What does “not correct” mean? I didn’t understand—subjectively in your eyes? Not correct in what sense?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] In your eyes it’s not correct—that’s what you’re saying. What do you mean, subjectively in your eyes? You’re claiming it’s not correct. It’s completely legitimate to claim it’s not correct.
[Speaker C] But what we’re talking about is each person with his own position, and you’re saying this isn’t some principled thing on the level of…
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Of course it’s principled. It’s just that there can be disputes. In morality too there can be someone who thinks murder is permitted, so does that make saying “murder is forbidden” arbitrary? What does that have to do with anything?
[Speaker C] Let’s say someone now petitions the Supreme Court saying it’s impossible that the current Speaker of the Knesset should serve for three days—from today until Monday at six o’clock. Okay, what do you think about… what would the Supreme Court say about that? I don’t know. They don’t intervene—that’s not really unreasonable, it’s not incorrect.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] I haven’t thought about that. If I think about it, I’ll be able to answer you. I don’t know what they’d say; I can’t tell you what, in my opinion, it could be. What do you think? I don’t know—you’d have to think about it. I’m supposed to tell you what they’d say? I’m not a prophet.
[Speaker C] But I’m showing you that whatever the case may be, sometimes it’s also not good to intervene, because the political game is complex, problematic, it’s…
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] That’s not the discussion. I’m explaining to you again—that’s not the discussion. In my eyes it was very right to intervene, but that can be debated. I’m claiming that after the Supreme Court decided to intervene, there’s no justification whatsoever for refusal.
[Speaker C] But you know of another reason too? Maybe in order to preserve public trust, in order to preserve separation of powers with the court, so that this state doesn’t—that democracy doesn’t fall apart—for additional values beyond this specific decision.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Someone to whom it was important that democracy not fall apart should have obeyed without resigning, and democracy would not have fallen apart one bit less.
[Speaker C] You’re not talking about our Bibi.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] I’m talking about Bibi and also about Edelstein. Democracy…
[Speaker F] Excuse me, I’m Ezra, I want to jump in for a second. I have to say I’m really, really full of astonishment that citizens even have the audacity to come and say that when the Supreme Court issues a ruling, there is even a thought that one should not obey it.
[Speaker C] Wait, Dafna, one second—you’ve just done my work for me, because now it’s clear that Miki already won’t go completely smoothly with the Supreme Court. You challenged him so strongly with that decisiveness that in a moment you’ll hear Miki.
[Speaker F] But wait, I’ll tell you—on the issue of obedience there is no room for debate at all. Tomorrow a police officer stops me because I walked five hundred meters from home, and I explain to him, sir, this order is completely idiotic, and I begin explaining all the reasons. So what? So I’m allowed not to obey? Don’t I have to immediately go back? As long as you’re willing to bear the consequences, then… Excuse me, what do you mean? That’s something else, a different matter, although even then you won’t convince me that it’s conscientious. But I—but in practice you’re arriving at everywhere. I’m a lawyer, as it happens. Do you know how many rulings I walk away from absolutely furious at the judge and thinking he’s a complete idiot? So what? Should I tell my client not to comply? I don’t understand this whole discourse at all. Sitting here is a symbol of the state, a symbol of statesmanship, the deputy acting President of the State of Israel, and the Supreme Court, which is the highest authority currently accepted—nobody has overthrown them, nobody has stormed the court yet with a D9 bulldozer. They are still authorized to rule. So the Speaker of the Knesset stands there at the podium and explains. This is anarchy. And I don’t understand why you are all so eager to argue about obeying the law. I don’t understand it. You can absolutely debate whether the Supreme Court was right or wrong. As private individuals, say whatever you want. You want afterward to go protest or to bring about a legal change so that judges of this type won’t sit anymore? Fine, change the law. But once there is an order, the story is over. That’s it.
[Speaker E] No, but then basically you don’t agree with the notion of a manifestly illegal order? Because there’s no such thing—an order was given and one must obey.
[Speaker F] I agree with a manifestly illegal order when it is conscientious refusal and the person is going to pay the price. Because it could also be that the Supreme Court would come and say, sir, Edelstein, you have now committed insubordination. Aside from the fact that your immunity as a member of Knesset stands by your side in this case, but for insubordination you should now go to prison. But he wasn’t standing there ready to bear the consequences. Besides, he is also in a situation where, first of all, if he can’t bear it, very well, let him resign. But if his resignation means that for two days now the Knesset won’t function, then he needs to come and say, okay, I resign, but I hereby request that my deputy’s deputy sit in the Knesset and hold this session. I’m incapable of doing it.
[Speaker E] But wouldn’t he simply be willing to bear the result that the Supreme Court would tell him, okay, so you’ll go to prison—whatever it is?
[Speaker D] He can’t go to prison, he has immunity. What? He has immunity.
[Speaker E] No, I mean that okay, you’re saying that de facto in this case there are no consequences, but if there were consequences then he would accept them.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Part of the theory of conscientious refusal is the willingness to pay the price. Exactly. And if you don’t pay a price, then that conscientious refusal is problematic.
[Speaker F] Besides, there’s a difference with conscientious refusal: the consequences are only for you yourself. If you don’t want to go to the army, that’s between you and the army. Yuli Edelstein here didn’t engage in personal conscientious refusal. He engaged in refusal whose meaning was that the Knesset stops functioning. It’s not only between him and the Supreme Court.
[Speaker E] I don’t agree, because you harm the whole people when you choose not to enlist, not just yourself.
[Speaker F] No, you harm the whole people if now
[Speaker E] in that organism called the people.
[Speaker F] But I really raise a question into the air: where exactly have you all been regarding all kinds of rulings that truly constitute injustice, that harm populations, and harm some poor person who couldn’t properly present his case because he didn’t have a good lawyer? Where have you been for seventy years over rulings that are unjust? Why haven’t you insisted that those rulings not be carried out?
[Speaker E] There, that’s whataboutism. It’s not to the point.
[Speaker F] It’s exactly to the point. Where were you until now? Why did you remember only now?
[Speaker E] No, now we have a case that’s before us, and you’re also making a principled claim that one has to obey everything. There’s no such possibility as not obeying.
[Speaker F] No, file an appeal. By the way, Yuli Edelstein could have requested an additional hearing before a larger Supreme Court panel. He doesn’t like it? Okay, then take whatever steps you want and ask for a larger panel. The question is very principled. You five are not enough to give an answer; there are also panels of nine, so I’ll ask for a panel of nine. Then he is functioning within the rules of the game. But he coarsely violated the rules of the game. And right now we are exactly in the situation of “were it not for the fear of government, people would swallow one another alive”—that is exactly what will happen. And I’m telling you there was already a skit—I don’t know whether it was on Eretz Nehederet or someone else—that catches some woman, exactly in the example I gave you, where they come and tell her, what are you doing walking in the park now? It’s forbidden to walk in the park now. And she starts, all in joking language, starts giggling with him and saying, what do you mean? I know that in this park you can do this and that, and I don’t agree with this and that. And look—even Yuli Edelstein doesn’t agree.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Okay, let’s move on. It seems to me we’ve exhausted this political issue. The positions have been presented. Fine, there’s more here.
[Speaker F] It’s not a political issue. It’s a civil-legal issue.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] It’s part of the political issue—the attitude toward the Supreme Court.
[Speaker F] The reason of the Supreme Court, that’s true. And fortunately I’m with you on the point that they were justified in intervening. Good. By the way, Professor Friedman also agreed with that, and he is one of the very major opponents of Supreme Court intervention.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] It seems trivial to me. I don’t see what his problem would be—mine too, mine too. What else? Any more questions? More comments? Or other things? Then we’ll close. Rabbi?
[Speaker G] Yes. Hello, I just have a comment. The Rabbi said, when is it okay to throw an atom bomb if there are innocent people there—well, in the Talmud there’s a discussion about that, about an idolatrous city. Once there are fifty-one percent, it’s not exactly the heap paradox. Once there are fifty-one percent guilty people, then forty-nine percent are killed even though they’re innocent.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] No, no, no. The issue of an idolatrous city has nothing to do with the matter. The issue of an idolatrous city is not because they are harming or threatening someone. It’s not under the law of a pursuer.
[Speaker G] They harm society itself. What do you mean? They’re in a place that changes the whole atmosphere of the society they’re in. And there is permission to kill fifty-one percent even when they’re guilty?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] So in an idolatrous city you can kill everyone? Is that your halakhic ruling?
[Speaker G] At the moment there is—there was—there is an opinion in the Talmud that it never was and never will be; we know those opinions. And there’s one who says, Rabbi Yonatan: I was there and saw it.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] It was, it was, and it came into being—let’s go with the opinion that it was and came into being. But there are rules for what counts as an idolatrous city. Not every city you don’t like—you turn it into an idolatrous city and wipe everyone out.
[Speaker G] No, a city whose majority was led astray into idol worship,
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Whose majority was led astray into idol worship. Is that what’s happening with us? And this was said under the law of a pursuer, not under the laws of an idolatrous city. And by the way, the laws of a pursuer do allow harming even innocents. I wrote an article about that once too.
[Speaker G] But that’s not the question at all, so obviously in war you can definitely cause harm. The Rabbi said, from when is it possible? There’s no number. If someone tells me kill one person, or I’ll kill you, or kill the whole world—I can destroy the whole world without any question of numbers at all.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] No, you can’t.
[Speaker G] Why not? “What makes your blood redder?” The Talmud says, “What makes your blood redder?”
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] So the whole world will die because you won’t kill one person? Are you out of your mind?
[Speaker G] Does the Holy One, blessed be He, weigh people against numbers?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Certainly. What kind of question is that?
[Speaker G] Where? Where have we seen that?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] In Lot’s daughters. They slept with their father because they thought humanity had been wiped out. Do you know the halakhic permission for that?
[Speaker G] But that’s midrash, it’s not written there in the plain sense of the text.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] What? It’s the plain sense of the text, no midrash at all. The plain sense of the text is that they say no one is left, come let us preserve offspring from our father.
[Speaker G] No, they thought no one was left in the city itself. That doesn’t mean no one was left in the world.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] No, no one was left in the world.
[Speaker G] Not necessarily. They didn’t know that no one was left in the world.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] First of all, even if you’re right, then you only strengthen me even more. Then there’s no permission at all for what they did. Because there were people left in the world, only not in their city. So then why do the Sages praise them for what they did?
[Speaker G] A transgression for its own sake? I don’t know exactly what to say right now.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Well said—you do know exactly what to say: a transgression for its own sake. What do you mean? Of course there are considerations. If humanity has been wiped out, then all the rules are shattered. You don’t let all of humanity die in order to save one person. That’s madness.
[Speaker G] I didn’t say save one person. The Rabbi didn’t hear the question. Either I kill one person—the question is like this: some Nazi officer comes to me now and says, listen, either you kill someone or you kill a million.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] How? Kill one or kill a million? Or the trolley dilemma—if you kill one or kill a million with the trolley?
[Speaker G] No, to kill an innocent person or kill a hundred—actually, I can’t think of anything now. Fine, it’s not the same situation,
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] But it’s not—obviously there are.
[Speaker G] There’s that Talmudic discussion that if they singled out Sheva ben Bichri—if they said hand over Sheva ben Bichri, and if not we’ll kill all of you here—then if he is not guilty, you hand him over, and if he’s not this then you don’t hand him over.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] If he is—this is the Jerusalem Talmud in Terumot, and you can read about it in my article in Tehumin 25, and there I explain that matter well. It has nothing to do with our discussion. Fine. Those are not laws of preserving life; they are laws of sanctifying God’s name. So…
[Speaker G] Wait, so what comes out from the idolatrous city? We don’t kill a city whose majority was led astray into idol worship, and innocent people die?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] An idolatrous city is a different law. In an idolatrous city the Torah is speaking about those who were led astray into idol worship, and there are rules, and there too you don’t leave anything of their property. Do you think the law says not to leave any property also in a city of enemies? In every enemy city? Is that how you apply the laws of an idolatrous city?
[Speaker G] Entirely? No. There’s a dispute whether their property escapes or their property is lost.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] What do you mean? Forget escapes or is lost—they have property there. Now you have to destroy all of it, right? Leave nothing. Even if a mezuzah remains, you don’t leave anything in an idolatrous city. Right?
[Speaker G] That’s according to Rabbi Elazar, but it’s not ruled that way by Maimonides.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Now I’m asking you whether you apply that law to a city of enemies. There’s a law of an idolatrous city, no?
[Speaker G] If a city—if there is, the point here in my opinion is if there’s some threat. That’s exactly the issue when they fire rockets at us and now we need to act surgically in order to hit them. So if we act surgically, then we also—we too draw blood.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] You’re taking me to the opposite extreme, and that’s exactly what I explained. We don’t need surgery in the sense of making sure no innocent person is harmed. But that doesn’t mean you can drop an atom bomb on Gaza. There is some line of reasonableness between this law and that law. And going all the way in order to reduce things to absurdity is an incorrect argument. There’s no sharp line, and still there is more reasonable and less reasonable.
[Speaker C] Isn’t that Abraham’s argument with the Holy One, blessed be He, about Sodom?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Right, a good example.
[Speaker C] Can I just read one sentence, a short paragraph from an article by Ayelet Shaked that can be read on N12? Okay. “There is no doubt that one must comply with Supreme Court rulings,” wrote Knesset member and former Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked. “But one cannot ignore the decision, which involves humiliating the Speaker of the Knesset.” In a special column for N12 she explains why Supreme Court intervention in the decision about replacing the Speaker of the Knesset is exceptional, and how the political process is increasingly being controlled by the judicial system. And the rest—go and learn. Let’s go read the article she wrote.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Nice, enjoyable. I’m sure we’ll still exchange impressions about it. Yes. Okay, that’s it?
[Speaker H] Rabbi, a question, with your permission. Yes. Regarding the issue of women immersing in ritual baths during the coronavirus period—what is the Jewish law? What is the right thing to do?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] The truth is that just now I got an email—the day before yesterday or maybe three days ago—Rabbi Amsalem issued some ruling on this, in which he argues that in pressing circumstances, of course, when there is absolutely no way to immerse otherwise, one can immerse in drawn water, and even if there aren’t forty se’ah in it. He has various arguments. He asked me what I think; he perhaps wanted me to join him. So I told him I agree in principle with this ruling. I only told him that I think—and I recommended this to him, and he accepted the recommendation, he told me—that he shouldn’t write it as a permission but rather as the approach of Rabbi Ilai. Meaning, that it’s advice for minimizing damage, not a permission. Meaning, if someone can’t hold out without it, then at least let her do that. But not that it is permitted to do it. That may sound semantic, but it isn’t semantic. There is the approach of Rabbi Ilai, yes? “If a person sees that his inclination is overpowering him, let him go to a distant place, wear black, and do what his heart desires.” Basically what Rabbi Ilai is saying is: look, you’re forbidden to do this; I’m not giving you permission. But if the alternative is that you will fail in something even worse, then at least minimize the damage. And I told him that I think it’s more correct to present this permission in that way.
[Speaker G] Rabbi, I know that Rabbi Feinstein says that secular women who go to the swimming pool, and over there it’s basically drawn water, so in that sense they are rescued on the Torah level / of biblical origin. He doesn’t say it as a permission, so the idea is that if a woman goes and immerses in a bathtub or in things like that, which are not proper water, then she is rescued on the Torah level / of biblical origin, but there is still a rabbinic prohibition here.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Assuming, of course, that the whole body was in the water, and so on. But yes, this is a dispute among the medieval authorities (Rishonim). There are medieval authorities (Rishonim) who say that if the entire mikveh is drawn water, then it is invalid at the Torah level. But most of the medieval authorities (Rishonim), and the original major ones—Maimonides, the Shulchan Arukh—rule that it is not.
[Speaker G] He discusses there the question of whether all the children of secular people are children conceived in niddah or not, and he says that if she went
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] to the pool
[Speaker G] at that time and so on, then they are not children conceived in niddah, and so on.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Okay. I don’t know what the practical difference is, but fine, so be it.
[Speaker H] Is that not a commandment that comes through a transgression?
[Speaker G] If the Sages nullified it? What? He’s asking whether it isn’t a commandment that comes through a transgression, so a commandment that comes through a transgression when one violates a rabbinic prohibition. No, it’s like someone whose head and most of his body and his table are inside the sukkah—then they say to him, “You’ve never fulfilled the commandment of sukkah in your life.”
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] No, no—also regarding the sukkah, that’s a dispute between the Ran and Tosafot. But here it’s not relevant, because there you’re fulfilling the commandment in a way that is not according to the Sages’ ordinance. Here, though, afterward you’re simply doing some act after immersion; there is no commandment to immerse. After all, what exists is only a prohibition against having relations if you haven’t immersed. Now once you immersed at the Torah level, even if you didn’t immerse at the rabbinic level, the…
[Speaker G] Rabbi, I have one more question, something regarding someone here, I can’t see—hello.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Yes, yes, go ahead.
[Speaker G] Something regarding the attitude of Haredi society on this issue of delaying gratification. When we see that someone, say, can’t manage to guard his eyes and so on, then in Haredi society the norm is, you know, to pity him, to tell him it’s not okay, and so forth. I’m asking: what’s the relationship between that and a person who’s, say, overweight? Why doesn’t society treat with the same severity a person who can’t delay gratification from food and a person who can’t delay gratification in looking at a woman? Why isn’t it with the same severity? And my question is like what the Talmud asks in Yoma: whether the severity of what the Talmud says there—there was someone there who killed someone, and then the father said, remove him from the Temple courtyard—and then the Talmud asks whether the severity of the prohibition of bathing is more severe, and the prohibition regarding the purity of vessels still stands, or whether that prohibition is lighter and this one stands. My question is: why doesn’t Haredi society view the prohibition of food-lust the way it views lust for women? Is food-lust somewhere in the middle and lust for women is intensified, or is lust for women the real thing and food-lust is nothing?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] This isn’t forbidden, and that is forbidden, so what do you mean?
[Speaker G] What’s the comparison? Why? I don’t understand. I’m saying the opposite. First of all, the Chazon Ish says that gluttonous eating is the grandfather of all impurity. In our Torah there is an attitude toward this—the sin of eating. All the confusion of this world started from the sin of eating. The Torah also speaks about the case of the stubborn and rebellious son,
[Speaker B] a glutton and a drunkard, in whom
[Speaker G] you gave the power of lust, and then kill him. This whole issue of the prohibition of looking is not the plain meaning of the verse. “Do not stray after your hearts and after your eyes”—the Talmud says that’s a prohibition of heresy.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] It’s not the plain meaning of the verse. What I know is what Jewish law says, and what Jewish law says is that there is no prohibition against eating as much as you want.
[Speaker G] Why? The point here is that we go by the essence. Why doesn’t that destroy the soul like this does? He can’t delay—wait, I want to understand something essential here. Every act of not delaying gratification wreaks destruction on the soul. Why does looking at a woman wreak destruction on the soul because he can’t delay gratification from a woman, but when he can’t delay gratification from food, that doesn’t destroy the soul?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] You’re mixing apples and oranges. Looking at a woman—the problem is not that you’re not delaying gratification, but that you’re doing something forbidden. That’s all. There is also lack of delayed gratification here, but the severity of the matter is not because of that; it’s because it is forbidden.
[Speaker G] What does “forbidden” mean? Why? What’s the reason?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] It’s forbidden because the Torah said it’s forbidden.
[Speaker G] Maimonides says it’s because it leads to improper thoughts, and sinful thoughts are worse than the sin itself, and it destroys the soul. Fine. But eating a lot and getting fat—is that okay?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] We do not derive law from the reason of the verse, and certainly I don’t derive it from Maimonides’ reasons—they are highly questionable. So I don’t understand the relevance of all these homiletic interpretations. There is Jewish law, and Jewish law says this is forbidden and that is permitted, that’s all. “You shall be holy” means sanctify yourself even in what is permitted to you—that’s Nachmanides at the beginning of the portion of Kedoshim, and among other things he speaks about excessive eating. Excessive eating is something permitted. There is no halakhic prohibition.
[Speaker G] There’s no prohibition against craving food?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] No, of course not.
[Speaker G] Interesting. I don’t understand why, because I understand that it destroys the soul in exactly the same way.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] There’s a principle of legality. You know, in the legal world there is a principle of legality. The principle of legality says that for a citizen, anything not forbidden is permitted; and for the government, anything not explicitly permitted is forbidden. In the halakhic world it’s the same, except that in the halakhic world we’re all citizens. The legislators—the government—is the Holy One, blessed be He. So for us only the first side of the principle of legality exists. As long as it’s not forbidden, it’s permitted. That’s all. Bring me a source that it’s forbidden and then I’ll understand.
[Speaker G] I know that the Torah says that a stubborn and rebellious son, just from the fact that he’s chasing after food already at such an age—on the contrary, not only that, the Torah says kill him. Today, if you told someone that because he stole from his father half a log of wine and some amount of this and went to eat, kill him—they’d look at you like you’re crazy. But the Torah says he has already implanted in himself the power of lust, and in the end he will consume other people.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Why specifically a tartemar of meat? And why specifically at the age of twelve and a half? And why this? What? Is there some general principle?
[Speaker G] Because if at that age he’s already chasing after lusts, then who can foresee his end? That’s the… Meat there was considered food of lust; they won’t tell you—and not only that.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] We require the verse exactly as written—if those conditions are not fulfilled, we don’t execute a stubborn and rebellious son. Right. That’s it. So it says there is no halakhic principle like that.
[Speaker G] No, he is immersed in lust for food. He’s immersed in meat. Today, when people want to say about someone that he’s immersed in food-lust, they don’t say he cracks sunflower seeds all day. They say he’s immersed in wine and meat.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] We’re back again to the same point. So you’re basically suggesting that anyone immersed in food-lust should be killed, right? That’s basically what you’re suggesting.
[Speaker G] No, I’m saying that at least the outlook of Haredi society should be equal, like it is with that.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Don’t take me back there. I’m asking what you think: that anyone with food-lust is violating the law of the stubborn and rebellious son, so he should be stoned? That’s all.
[Speaker G] No, that’s not—it’s the Torah that says that. Again we’re getting into whether it ever happened or didn’t happen. The Torah says it.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Whether it happened or not doesn’t interest me. I’m asking you what should be done to him.
[Speaker G] Today we do nothing. Today we do nothing. But if there were a Sanhedrin, maybe—
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] I think that’s a very effective diet. Kill everyone who overeats and everything will be excellent.
[Speaker G] Not everyone. First of all, I’m not talking about that. Look, from age twelve—that’s what you’re suggesting, that’s how you interpret the section of the stubborn and rebellious son. Right, but that’s only half a year. Only half a year. I’m talking about adults—the adults who decide to get fat.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] But why only half a year? And why someone who eats not meat but soy, but is still satiated and gluttonous? Ask
[Speaker G] the Holy One, blessed be He. So what are you saying? That it’s not an issue of lust? That a person has implanted lust in himself?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] So why do they kill him, according to your view? “He is judged based on his end,” the Talmud says. I know? I don’t know. So?
[Speaker G] He implanted it in himself. How do we know that he is judged based on his end? If at that age he is already immersed in food-lust, then he will rob people.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] I don’t know how we know that he is judged based on his end. What I do know is that they would not kill him if the Torah had not written it. Once the Torah wrote it, then all kinds of reasons are offered for it. That’s all.
[Speaker G] So we really don’t know? So if they had someone to execute, then really they wouldn’t… they wouldn’t know the reason, the Sanhedrin? Only we don’t? It disappeared from them?
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Of course they know the reason, but they don’t execute because of the reason. We do not derive law from the reason of the verse.
[Speaker G] Fine. “We do not derive law from the reason of the verse” clashes head-on with Maimonides, who has the entire third section of the Guide of the Perplexed on the reasons for the commandments. He says it there. He writes it there. It doesn’t clash even by a garlic peel.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] What? It doesn’t clash even by a garlic peel. Why? The fact that we do not derive law from the reason of the verse does not mean that we do not explain the reasons for the commandments.
[Speaker G] No, so the Rabbi is basically saying that a commandment has no essence, no reason; we can’t understand it.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Listen, if you had been listening, you would know what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that “we do not derive law from the reason of the verse” does not mean that we do not
[Speaker G] explain the reasons for the commandments.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Rather? It means that we do not interpret the commandment according to its reasons. Halakhically, we do not conduct ourselves according to an interpretation of the reasons. You can explain all the reasons, and many medieval authorities (Rishonim) write this. Even according to Rabbi Yehuda, who does not derive law from the reason of the verse, one can explain the reasons for the commandments, and it is desirable to explain the reasons for the commandments—I am not sure that it is desirable, but that’s what many write. But that is not connected to the matter at hand. You cannot draw halakhic conclusions from that. That is what “we do not derive law from the reason of the verse” means. It has nothing to do with Maimonides in the third part of the Guide of the Perplexed. He too knows that we do not derive law from the reason of the verse, and that is also how he rules in Jewish law.
[Speaker G] Fine. Okay.
[Rabbi Michael Abraham] Okay. Good, so are we done? Thank you very much. Good night. Good night. See you.