Thanks. And does the Rabbi think it’s better to move there as early as possible, or it doesn’t make much difference? (From what it sounds like from the Rabbi, it sounds like it’s better to go there first, just making sure I didn’t misunderstand.) And is this true also in kollels, or specifically in yeshivas? (That also has practical relevance for the previous question.)

By the way, if there are fewer classes there, how do they give students the tools?

I don’t know how old you are, but from the age of a junior yeshiva onward it’s already preferable to be there. It gives you sharper and more solid tools. Of course I mean yeshivas, at the stage when one is acquiring tools. In kollel I don’t see great importance in the place. Once you’re formed, you learn the way you learn.
One of the advantages of learning in the Haredi world is that many of the tools are transmitted “through the air,” that is, through the discourse among people. Because Torah constitutes such an important component of all of life there, the learning in the study hall is much more significant than in the Religious Zionist world. People exchange experiences about what so-and-so said in resolving this or that difficulty, and what was answered to him, and so on. All this is mainly in the good yeshivas, of course, because even in the Haredi world there are quite a few yeshivas that are not at such a high level.
I repeat and emphasize that it’s important to come prepared and solid in your views, because it’s an ideological pressure cooker there (if they’ll even accept you to study there when you come with the aim of extracting learning tools without taking on the whole package deal).
And I’ll add that if this involves fights (with your parents, etc.), I would recommend avoiding it, or waiting until an older age (again, I don’t know your age). In my opinion it isn’t worth a quarrel and conflict.

מעתניאל למיר ובחזרה – יומן מסע – זמן אלול בישיבת מיר

I read it with great interest. Very interesting. I have quite a few comments, but it really is a fascinating point of view.
As for the learning, I don’t really know Mir well (I’m from Bnei Brak—Ponevezh and its daughters), but the description as though a Lithuanian yeshiva focuses on the commentators on Rashi and Tosafot (Maharsha, Pnei Yehoshua) is simply not correct. That probably depends on the yeshiva, and I assume that even in Mir it isn’t entirely correct.

Hello Yossi, if you’re interested in some inside advice from the depths of the Haredi “yeshiva world,” I invite you to contact me privately.
P.S. Rabbi Michi, it seems to me that Your Honor can’t properly represent the sides of the “doubt,” if only for the reason that your situation in terms of “personal status” was fundamentally different from the situation of most people who fall into Haredism, and that’s enough said.

Thanks everyone, I’ll think it over. By the way, I’ve already been in a post-high-school yeshiva for a few years… Hope it’s still relevant.
To Binyamin: thanks for the offer, but from a brief impression from your comments on the site, I think you’re carrying too much anger and resentment toward the Haredi world, and less actual substance. If you still have something to say, I’d be glad if you’d write it here (if possible without unnecessary disparagement, that would be better and would personally help me listen).

Yossi, everything I have to tell you (and people like you) personally is not meant for publication; the matters are entirely personal and go into great detail regarding the people you’ll come into contact with. If you make that terrible mistake, God forbid, always remember that regarding this Kohelet already said: “What is crooked cannot be made straight, and what is lacking cannot be counted.”

Rashi there says:

“‘What is crooked’—during his lifetime (before the fall into Haredism) he will not be able to correct it once he has died (after the fall into Haredism); whoever toiled on the eve of the Sabbath will eat on the Sabbath…”

“‘And what is lacking cannot be counted’—this is one who excluded himself from the number of the worthy (truly worthy, and not merely worthy in their opinion); he will not be counted with them in receiving their reward.”

May it be God’s will that the verse be fulfilled in you: “The Lord will guard you from all evil; He will guard your soul.” Binyamin

Hope it’s okay to jump into the thread and ask questions like this. They’re simply on the same topic.
I’m planning to study in a Religious Zionist yeshiva next year (I’m currently registered for the yeshiva where the Rabbi used to teach, but I still haven’t actually decided).
Which Religious Zionist yeshivas, in the Rabbi’s opinion, have lomdus at a very high level (not including Har Hamor and its daughters)? And even in them, is the level still lower than in good Haredi yeshivas (Mir, Hebron, Ponevezh)?

And I assume it would be better to consult the Rabbi about this through another medium (email?). If that’s possible from the Rabbi’s standpoint, I’d appreciate it.

And one more thing.
I don’t know Mir all that well, but of course in the article he is describing the learning method in the yeshiva led by Rabbi Asher Arieli, whose main focus is precision in the language of Rashi and Tosafot. Mir is unusual in this respect compared to most Lithuanian yeshivas.

I of course completely disagree with the claim that in Mir they learn commentators on Rashi and Tosafot. There’s a lot to expand on, but there are many styles in Mir, and in-depth engagement with the medieval authorities on the passage. Rabbi Finkel the younger teaches in a very in-depth “according to his own method” style, and Rabbi Rafael Shmuelevitz of blessed memory was a lamdan without brakes, not to mention the halakhic judge Rabbi Meir Shmuelevitz, his younger brother. About him their father Rabbi Chaim said that if he had invested in Rabbi Meir what he invested in Rabbi Rafael, no creature would have been able to stand in his presence. In short, the learning in Mir is far removed from Pnei Yehoshua, Maharsha, and Maharam on Tosafot. As for Rabbi Asher Arieli, I don’t know, because he teaches only in Yiddish, and someone who doesn’t speak the language can only be fed by rumors; I personally have none. (Rabbi Asher also used to teach in “the incinerator,” Tiferet Zvi, in Hebrew, but there in any case the level is more basic than Mir Yeshiva.) And in any case Mir is definitely not Hebron or Bnei Aharon, but it is very easy for an outsider tourist to adapt to. You can learn there whether you’re a slacker who watches movies in the dormitory bathrooms or whether you’re a cholent guy with boxes full of Chazon Ish. Even Binyamin Gurlin could find his destiny there 😉

Gil, please don’t forget to mention that near Mir there roam many cannabis dealers who offer their wares at a special discount to the “sons of Torah” who want to unwind and throw away their minds at the end of a day of idleness, and sometimes even in the middle of the day, thereby atoning for their souls and finding relief for all their ailments.

I hadn’t forgotten. And around the drug dealers circle traders in maidservants and prostitutes with discounts for yeshiva boys, of all kinds and colors, including dwarfs and slaves, and beyond them whole faculties of heretical philosophers, and right behind all this filth—once we’ve passed through the husks and this impenetrable cesspool of sludge—there dwells the light. And within it sits an enlightened man writing whatever comes into his head.

So in short, you don’t recommend Mir.
So what should a Religious Zionist do if he has no way of being accepted to another Haredi yeshiva? And I’m not talking about incinerators—at least not openly activist incinerators.
And again, sorry for barging in. Hope that’s okay.

Student,
You can call, but I’ll already tell you that I don’t know the yeshivas well. It’s hard for me to express a position about them. This is less a question about the level of the yeshivas than about the ability to derive from them the basic tools of lomdus. That’s not always the same thing. There can be a high level, but it doesn’t provide the basic tools. That’s what I meant when I wrote that it’s worthwhile to start in Haredi Lithuanian yeshivas, and afterward one can and should consider moving.

What should he do? Learn in a non-Haredi yeshiva and be diligent. In the end, the place is not what determines things. Greatness in Torah is not strongly dependent on the yeshiva where you studied, but mainly on you. The yeshiva can enrich, but in my view it’s really not critical.

Thank you.

Does the Rabbi know of specific yeshivas where this gap exists (meaning that even though they’re high-level, they don’t impart the basic tools)? Or should I just judge by the level and that’s it?

Rabbi Michi,
Following Hillel Nagen’s article, maybe it would be worth devoting a column to the differences between the Religious and Haredi yeshiva worlds, and more generally to the approach to Torah study in the two sectors? (Or maybe there was already such a column in the past?)
As a graduate of a Haredi yeshiva, in my opinion he correctly describes the differences between the sectors in relation to Torah and the general approach to learning. Later in the article, in the section analyzing Haredi (Torah-based) ideology, there are topics open to different interpretations. It would be interesting to hear your perspective on the differences.

With God’s help, 11 Iyar 5780

In order to enter Brisker analysis, you don’t need to sit on it all day. Most of the day should be devoted to fundamental and precise study of the plain meaning of the Talmud, and the parallel passages. Analysis of the passages will bring up the basic questions in the passage, questions with which the medieval and later authorities grapple.

After you’re already into the material and have mastery of the passage, its fine points and parallels, and of the major methods of the medieval authorities, then Brisker analysis comes and gives conceptualization (and in modern Hebrew: logical formalization 🙂 You can’t build a building without solid foundations.

Brisker analysis can also be absorbed through a fixed class or study partnership once or twice a week, and likewise through regular study of a book of novellae in the style dealing with the tractate being learned in the yeshiva. In its time (30–40 years ago) there was a class by Rabbi Shimon Fisher for the students of HaKotel Yeshiva every Friday at his home. Maybe the class still exists?

Wishing you success,
Shatz

L

Yossi, that was a general statement about all the yeshivas. Even those that are high-level do not impart tools like in the Haredi world. The reason is the greater intensity and stronger tradition there. As I said, I don’t know the yeshivas well enough to express a position or make comparisons.

Haredi, I’ll consider it.

Shatz, conceptualization is not logical formalization. They are nowhere near each other. I also don’t agree that one can acquire the basic foundations of Brisker analysis in an hour or two a day. This needs to be the main form of learning, at least in the first years in yeshiva.

Someone who has not acquired proper knowledge of the Talmud and its commentators—what exactly will he conceptualize?

With blessings, Shteigen needs learning [=Shatz]

There are books by Rabbi Eyal Reznikovitz of Yeruham Yeshiva that introduce the learner to Brisker analysis.

Thanks again very much:)
And I join Haredi’s request.

Now that the subject of conceptualization came up, does the Rabbi happen to have an article on it or some thread of some kind?

A great many of my articles and classes deal with conceptualizations. But I don’t have a general article on conceptualization itself.

And more generally, I’ll tell you that I very much do not recommend general introductory articles. The right way to enter the world of learning (in most fields) is simply to start learning the actual content, not to learn about it. Introductions are usually for experts, and they are really not the right way to enter a subject. I’m talking about principled and meaningful introductions, not general information about the subject.

Rabbi Eyal Reznikovitz of the hesder yeshiva in Yeruham published a series of books called “Kuntres Limud,” which introduce the learner in concise form to the world of Talmudic analytical study.

So far three books have appeared:

A. “Doubt, Clarification, and Decision”
B. “The Rules of the Commandments”
C. “Kingship and Government”

A review of A-B appears in Rabbi Dan Navon’s article, “The Nehama Leibowitz of the Gemara,” on the “Shabbat Supplement – Makor Rishon” website.

A review of C – Rabbi Yishai Engelman, “Your Pathway to Torah Study.”

“And give to the wise, and he will become wiser still.”

With blessings,
Shatz

I’ve already come across that travel diary in the past. As far as the gaps
in the level of learning between Mir and Otniel are concerned, with all due respect, he’s talking nonsense.
The best students or kollel men in Mir, Ponevezh, and the like will be at a level much higher
than the best young men or kollel men in Otniel.

Knows that he does not know,
And what about the best students in yeshivas like Yeruham, Har Etzion, or Merkaz? Are they too below the level of the best from Mir and Ponevezh?

With God’s help, 12 Iyar 5780

“The best students” may succeed more in learning on their own, like the Chazon Ish and Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv. The whole discussion should be ad hominem, according to the person seeking the advice: what will suit him better?

One may assume that in most cases, for a student who comes from the background of a yeshiva high school and a Religious Zionist atmosphere, a yeshiva that matches his background, mentality, and outlook—and will raise him bit by bit—will be more suitable. Entering without prior preparation into a site of fiery rockets of towering geniuses may, God forbid, lead to frustration instead of elevation.

In short:
It seems to me that it is preferable to go to a yeshiva that is a little above “the place where he is,” and not to “jump above your own navel.”

With blessings,
Shatz [= Shteigen walks slowly] 🙂

If one wants a Lithuanian yeshiva after all, perhaps try Netivot Olam in Bnei Brak (where Rabbi M. A. studied after the army), a yeshiva built for those who did not come from a Torah background.

Rabbi Shatz,
I agree, and therefore I’m starting in a Religious Zionist yeshiva. In any case, I think the prominent drawback in a significant portion of the Zionist yeshivas, and also in some of the good ones, is that they lack “summit air.” Growing in Torah when on the bench next to you sits an extraordinary diligent student with broad knowledge and sharp reasoning is not comparable to growing in a good yeshiva with diligent students at a relatively good level. In short, it simply doesn’t exist אצלנו (there may be yeshivas where it does. In Merkaz, for example, I felt differently than in the other yeshivas).
And the same applies to the maggidei shiur and the roshei mesivta. Also, not in all the good Zionist yeshivas are the rabbis first-rate lamdanim, at least relative to their counterparts in Ponevezh and the like.
That kind of contact (with students, kollel men, and rabbis) creates an ambitious atmosphere in the yeshiva, and also by itself pulls one upward.
And that’s what I feel is missing in the Zionist yeshivas.
(I wrote this a bit messily. I’m just a little busy. So sorry.)

Student,
I didn’t write my comments as an answer to your question.
As for your question, studying in a quality Haredi yeshiva will certainly advance
you much more than a knitted-kippah yeshiva in the style of Har Etzion or Yeruham.
True, not all Haredi yeshivas are high-level. There is a lot of mediocrity
there too. But an elite yeshiva sets a much higher standard.
That will be reflected in the outstanding students, in the middle layer, and likewise
the rabbis who teach the classes will be Torah scholars of far greater stature.

To Student—hello,

Adjacent (or at least not far) to some of the post-high-school yeshivas and hesder yeshivas, there is a kollel where the “lions of the group” themselves are trained for the rabbinate as judges—people who are outstanding lamdanim, full of broad knowledge and sharpness together with the ability to “bring the discussion to a halakhic conclusion.”

I recommend that you find such a kollel fellow and set up a study partnership with him once or several times a week, and with God’s help this will raise you in deep and straight analysis.

With blessings for success,
Shatz

The idea came to me from your mention of “summit air,” and I remembered the kollel in Psagot, from which some of the senior rabbinical judges in our land emerged.

As a student in a Haredi yeshiva, I can tell you that the better the yeshiva is, the more stigmas there are, almost without exception, and a guy who comes not from a Haredi background will be the baalebos of the class (the one who knows how Facebook works and on which channel Big Brother is broadcast), certainly among the elites, and there’s a high chance you’ll be socially rejected regardless of your learning level—certainly if you don’t hold all the right hashkafas (blind obedience to the great rabbis of the generation, providence over every tiniest thing that comes from God, the ideal that all men should be kollel men and all women are idiots, etc.). Personally I take a lot of heat for this even though I come from a Haredi background.

With blessings, Shatz”l (an incredibly cynical fool)

It seems to me that in Har Hamor they do know how to learn (but it’s boycotted here on the site for other reasons).

As far as I know, generally in the non-Haredi yeshivas people know the Haredi world, but the reverse is not common.
So I know the Haredi yeshiva world very, very well, and I know the religious world, including the yeshivas, fairly well.
So I’ll tell you this: in terms of atmosphere, it may be that there is more Torah among the Haredi yeshivas than the religious ones. In terms of level—not at all certain. And in my opinion, someone who comes from outside will be pained greatly by the enormous idleness that prevails in the yeshivas (the elite ones, and all the more so in yeshivas not considered such. Of course this is a generalization) and will be shocked by the gap between the declarations and the reality.
They talked about Otniel, so can someone show me a Haredi yeshiva book on the level of Neta Betokhenu?
I’d be happy to help anyone who wants, also to get in from the inside.

Y.D., I’m offended.
Do you really think I omitted Har Hamor because I disagree with them? I disagree with the Haredim too. Don’t tell anyone, but I even donate to Har Hamor and have for quite a few years, despite the disagreements. In my opinion it cannot be compared to the good Haredi yeshivas.

To Yossi, Student, and anyone interested: if you want advice from an insider Haredi yeshiva student (who grew up in a mixed Religious Zionist/Haredi family), contact my email natan417@gmail.com and I’ll get you a number.
I also have a way to get people into some of these yeshivas…

Thank you very much, I’ll contact you by email. I just didn’t understand whether the yeshiva student is you or a friend of yours..

Hello Rabbi,
You wrote here that the tools of learning are transmitted better in a Haredi yeshiva because it is more present in the discourse between people and Torah is a more important part of life.

There are a few things I’d be glad if you could expand on a bit:

What does it mean that Torah is a more important part of life—meaning, in what ways does this express itself differently from Zionist yeshivas?
Where is the discourse about the passages more evident than in a Zionist yeshiva? Because in Zionist yeshivas too there are quite a few people who keep talking about the passage over lunch or dinner—so what’s the difference? And if it’s true, how significant can that really be with respect to imparting learning tools?

This is a general impression, and it’s hard to spell out and justify here. In the air of a non-Haredi yeshiva, many other subjects are floating around as well. The future branches off in several directions. Excellence can be in additional areas. Not so in a Haredi yeshiva.

Does the Rabbi still donate to Har Hamor? Or has your attitude toward them changed in recent years?

No. No.