Q&A: Dependence on Time and Space
Dependence on Time and Space
Question
I saw an atheist who says he has a proof that God does not exist: everything in the world that exists depends on space and time. And God, by definition, does not depend on space and time. And even if you say that God does not depend on our space and time, but has His own space and time, then it turns out that either He is limited or He cannot exist.
I thought of an answer, that actually all matter does not depend on space and time; rather, all space and time depend on matter. Is that correct, or is there another answer to his question?
Answer
These are empty claims. Mere semantic tricks.
Do space and time themselves exist within the framework of space-time?
God can fail to depend on our space and time (I don’t understand what that sentence even means), and also not have His own space and time.
Discussion on Answer
What is God made of?
Anonymous, on the contrary: if they exist, then they do not exist inside space and time. And if they do not exist, then obviously you cannot say that everything that exists is within space and time.
A.,
Plastic.
This is a link to a video where he explains his view. I’d be happy if you would respond to this video.
Plastic? Nano-assemblers could take Him apart into atoms or molecules and rebuild Him as a beef steak. Too bad He would pollute space.
It doesn’t take much intelligence to understand that either you exist or God exists, and both cannot exist at the same time.
That is where the difference lies between the believer and the heretic.
The believer believes that God exists and that he himself does not exist.
The heretic believes that he himself exists. He will make God’s existence depend on how he defines his own existence.
Anonymous,
If you want, please formulate the argument and post it here, and we can discuss it.
https://mikyab.net/%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA/%D7%94%D7%AA%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%93%D7%93%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%A2%D7%9D-%D7%A9%D7%90%D7%9C%D7%94-%D7%90%D7%AA%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A1%D7%98%D7%99%D7%AA
Isn’t it correct to say that time and space are basically just the results of the movement of different kinds of matter, and if there is no matter then there is no time and space?
I meant, is that correct?
Rabbi, I didn’t understand something in the question.
Isn’t it rather strange to assume that it is impossible for there to be something outside space or time?
You’re basically assuming מראש that everything that can exist exists only within the framework of space and time, but where does that come from?
At most you can say that this is the position based on the familiar, but from there to claiming that this is necessary sounds like a bit of a leap, no?
In any case, are space and time just our description of things, or are they actual entities?
Because if everything within space and time is created, then according to the cosmological argument can one say that there exists a cause that is not part of space or time?
Or would the conclusion be that space and time created everything, but it is not clear whether they are entities, and even if they are, do they create things?
By the way, are souls part of space and time? There doesn’t seem to be any essential connection between them and place.
Only now did I understand your argument, Rabbi. Brilliant.
Thank you very much.
K, I completely agree. I don’t even understand the claim itself (what does it even mean at all?).
As for the question whether space-time exists or not, I addressed that above. I don’t know.
After I understood your argument, an objection occurred to me. Why can’t one say that this is like the causal argument (I don’t know the formal name; I mean the idea that the Holy One, blessed be He, is the cause of all causes): that everything has a cause except for one thing (the Holy One, blessed be He). So too, everything that exists depends on space and time except for space and time themselves.
No problem. But once there is one such thing, then it is no longer necessary that everything be like that. Maybe there is one more? (The Holy One, blessed be He.)
Why can’t you say the same thing about the causality claim? From the moment there is one thing without a cause, the world too could come into being without a cause.
I answered that in Mi-Barta and the First Existent. The world is made of things of the kind for which experience tells us that they have a cause.
Do you mean to say that space and time are concepts that do not exist? Sorry, I’m just a bit confused by the question.