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Q&A: Question About Studies

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This is an English translation (via GPT-5.4). Read the original Hebrew version.

Question About Studies

Question

Hello,
Let’s take 2 scenarios involving Reuven, a 23-year-old who is intelligent and talented.
In the first scenario, Reuven studied in the regular way in elementary school, middle school, and high school, and did 5-unit matriculation tracks in mathematics, biology, chemistry, and physics, with an average grade of 90.
In the second scenario, for various reasons, Reuven did not invest much in high school and didn’t really study, and he did 3 units in mathematics and majored in theater. But at age 20, for various reasons, he completed the 5-unit studies in mathematics, biology, chemistry, and physics in one year, or a little more, and now 3 years have passed and he is 23.
So in summary, the difference is that in the first version Reuven studied “slowly” over the course of years, while in the second version he learned everything within one year.
Now, after a few years at age 23 (or even immediately after the concentrated period of study), is there any difference between them in any respect—depth, knowledge, breadth, insights, or anything else—or are they more or less exactly the same?
Thank you (and I hope the question is clear).

Answer

I can’t say anything general. There is something to slow absorption, but it depends on the person. Beyond that, the cost of investing all that time, which may perhaps contribute to that slower absorption, can itself be problematic (the waste of time in school is absolutely terrible. School is mainly babysitting). 

Discussion on Answer

Yishai (2022-06-30)

Indeed. Therefore, in my humble opinion, it is preferable to move to the format of a junior yeshiva.

Michi (2022-06-30)

I used to think so too, but nowadays I’m uncertain about it. It is certainly good for some students (those who will study seriously and won’t be harmed by that focus). But it isn’t suitable for everyone.

Y.D. (2022-06-30)

Teachers who come from the field (and are not slaves of the Teachers’ Union) think differently:

הטרגדיה הגדולה של הוראת המתמטיקה

אפשר, אבל קשה

Y.D. (2022-06-30)

In practice, the Haredim do not succeed in closing the gaps in English and drop out at high rates from the serious professions in academia.

Yishai (2022-06-30)

Y.D.,
How old are your children? Did you send them to a regular yeshiva high school?
By the way, when I said junior yeshiva, I meant a place like Gamzu (the junior yeshiva in Sha’alvim), where whoever wants can do matriculation exams, but there are no unnecessary hours in the schedule that just waste time (from what I understood about the place). Ask any average 12th-grader about wasting time in a yeshiva high school. Wasting time is something that I think exists in most yeshiva high schools (and really in every high school). In addition, there is the issue that sacred studies are learned at a lower level in a yeshiva high school. Meaning, they both waste time on secular studies and also don’t study sacred subjects at a high level.

Michi (2022-06-30)

A long and complicated story, and now they are adults. One of them studied in Gamzu.

Y.D. (2022-06-30)

I don’t yet have boys of yeshiva-high-school age. We’ll think about it when the time comes. On the other hand, that doesn’t mean you have to make do with what the system offers. I know one Jew, very wise, whose sons in high-school age are involved in programming on the one hand, and on the other hand study the daily Talmud page. In Haredi and Hardal eyes maybe that isn’t considered much. In my opinion it is not little. It gives them breadth in Talmud that perhaps, when they reach higher yeshiva, will allow them to devote themselves to analysis calmly and from a place of familiarity with the Talmud. There is power in breadth of Talmud.
In the end it depends on you—on your investment in them, and also on their own enjoyment of learning. I have met young men for whom I felt sorry that they got stuck in junior yeshiva, and I have met young men who already in junior yeshiva made the impression on me of being serious scholars. From my experience, this stands in inverse correlation to how much the parent is himself a religious functionary. דווקא the children of parents who are religious functionaries (yeshiva teachers, educators) are very unfortunate in junior yeshivas, and it is precisely them that they stick into Talmud Torah schools and junior yeshivas without secular studies. Their escape route is in the army, but they arrive at the army with a low quality score and without a matriculation certificate. A shame. By contrast, the sons of serious programmers and engineers flourish in the Torah world. They have economic backing, and their parents’ seriousness gives them a standard of quality that they need to reach in the Torah world.

Y.D. (2022-06-30)

What I wrote about the need for structured building is true of yeshiva high schools too. A junior yeshiva like Gamzu does not provide a sufficiently serious matriculation certificate for someone who dreams of being a doctor or studying engineering at the Technion. There is importance to a structured education in order to reach achievements. On the Torah side this is painful, but that is already a broader problem in the religious public, which sometimes, in the name of the agenda of us versus them, prefers to take Religious Zionist yeshiva teachers who have not learned enough Torah instead of going with Haredi yeshiva teachers who come with a serious scholarly background.

K (2022-06-30)

Following the request of the esteemed Rabbi, may he live long, I am transferring the Q&A here:
I wanted to ask you an important question. Seemingly, there are very good arguments for the Haredi approach from the standpoint of wasted time and the possibility of making up the secular subjects afterward, as you mentioned in the Q&A—and as I see with my own eyes from people around me. And that is also how you acted in practice.
On the other hand, you wrote that nowadays you are uncertain about it.
I would be happy to hear what your view is today, and why!
P.S.
Obviously, I’m not talking about cases of people for whom specifically one kind of framework is suitable and the other framework would not suit them, in keeping with the idea that a person learns only from the place his heart desires.

K (2022-06-30)

Y.D.,
What is, in your view, the optimal mature adult? Let us assume by default that this is the person who has the greatest number of options and is at the highest religious level.
Personally, I think that nowadays we need to move the definition of that age from 18 to 25 (which is the age at which an average secular person is fit to work at full capacity, in the sense of age 18 in the words of the Sages).
And therefore I think that specifically the early years can be devoted to sacred subjects, aside from English and computers, which are things that for some people are hard to learn on their own. (Although the amount of hours one needs to invest in computers for 5 or 10 units is negligible compared to the need in school as we know it.) And at a young age it is easy specifically to invest in English, if there were a class in which they spoke only English.
And at around age 17 (first-year yeshiva high school) one could move to an alternative study framework of half analysis and half secular studies.
Exactly the opposite of the average Religious Zionist approach. It would take about two to three years to complete preparatory studies in the core subjects in a way that is not rushed or hasty.

Y.D. (2022-06-30)

K,
A person who studies Torah out of desire and not out of compulsion.

Yishai (2022-06-30)

In my humble opinion, the daily Talmud page is not enough.
You can also get a good matriculation certificate at Gamzu if someone is interested in that. In a university course I learned all the material for the physics matriculation exam, and at a somewhat higher level. That is, in one semester it is possible to finish the material for the physics matriculation exam. Someone who wants a matriculation exam in physics can study during recess and manage to finish. You really don’t need so many unnecessary classes for this (in any case, in the end people just watch YouTube videos).
As for taking Religious Zionist yeshiva teachers, I disagree with you. Sometimes they are looking for a figure who is more educational than scholarly, and of course there are also Religious Zionist scholars.

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