Q&A: Haredim vs. Religious Zionists
Haredim vs. Religious Zionists
Question
I saw data in several sources showing that the percentage of people who become less religious among Religious Zionists is significantly higher than their number in the Haredi public.
I assume that since you deal, among other things, with education, you know the data.
I wanted to know whether this does not prove that Haredi education, for all its flaws, gets the job done when it comes to keeping the children religious?
And despite this statistic, do you think that for other reasons it would still be preferable to educate children in Religious Zionist institutions?
Answer
This question has already been asked here several times. I’ll make a few brief remarks.
1. I’m not sure about the data. Haredi secularization is not discussed or presented anywhere. There is also quite a bit of hidden secularization of various kinds of people under coercion, who sociologically are Haredi but in essence are secular.
2. That is the situation now, but there is no guarantee what the future will be. The trend shows that this changes a lot. Remember that in the past everyone was “Haredi,” and all the secularization you see today came from them.
3. Even if you were completely right factually, I still would not send children to Haredi education because it is distorted. The moral and religious price of Haredi life is worth the risk of secularization. Certainly distorted religiosity versus doubtful but proper religiosity—the latter is preferable.
4. In more extreme wording, I would say you could ask the same question about Christians. If Christians succeed in preserving their Christianity, would that mean I should send my children to be educated by them? The Haredi religion is a different religion from mine.
5. Even Haredim do not use every possible means to prevent secularization. Maimonides says that someone who sees that he will not be able to overcome the impulse to speak slander should flee to caves and deserts. Does anyone do that? There is such a thing as normal life, and the Torah is meant to be lived in a normal world (the Torah was not given to the ministering angels), not in a cave, even if the price is that people commit transgressions. Therefore, preserving Torah does not require us to give up a normal world. In the spirit of “and live by them,” not die by them.
6. There is a dispute between Tosafot and Rashba (at least as the Beit Yosef understands it) whether one desecrates the Sabbath to save the soul just as one does to save the body. If someone’s son was seized for forced conversion, does one desecrate the Sabbath to save him or not? The idea that saving spiritual life is like saving bodily life is not simple. It may depend on the two interpretations in Yoma: “Desecrate one Sabbath for him [so that he may keep many Sabbaths]” or “and live by them.”
7. On the margins of my remarks I would add that the Haredim succeed (if they indeed do succeed) only thanks to the non-Haredi environment, which sustains them economically, militarily, medically, technologically, and even in providing answers to questions of faith and belief (which cannot be obtained among Haredim. I meet all those who do not get answers). Therefore the categorical imperative says that one must not be Haredi.
Discussion on Answer
That’s what I thought at first. I was mistaken.
Is it permissible to be dressed only like a Haredi, but to live one’s life as a Religious Zionist and as someone involved in the economy, culture, the army, etc.?
(It’s hard for me to change my clothing, since I grew up Haredi, but today I see things differently.)
I didn’t understand the question. What prohibition is there in that?
According to your view, a desecration of God's name.
Okay, that’s too indirect and too remote to count as an actual halakhic prohibition. The fact that people generalize about human beings based on their clothing is a fact, but I don’t think a person needs to change his clothing just because there are people who make generalizations. Beyond that, simply the fact that they suspect me of being a criminal is not a desecration of God's name. There are a million criminals, and now they suspect that I am one of them too. Why is that a desecration of God's name? What changed in the world and in the standing of God’s name because of that suspicion? The existence of those criminals is what constitutes a desecration of God's name.
Thank you for the detailed answer.
I assume that in point 5 you meant the Laws of Character Traits, chapter 6. Anyone who looks will see that Maimonides was not speaking about slander, but about a case where the people of the country are wicked, etc. And even there he wrote that one should sit alone in his house, and only if even in his own home they prevent him from keeping the commandments should he go off to deserts.
If the source is elsewhere, I’d be happy to read it.
Still, I’ll say that I do not accept your arguments, and in my humble opinion most of them are not convincing.
The main disagreement concerns point 4.
You view Haredism as a different religion; I view them as mistaken.
Point 7 is really precise.
It pains me greatly when I hear all the slander against the secular state and secular people, after they carry so much of the burden.
One more question, if I may.
Assuming that the Haredi public really does succeed in preserving the children, don’t you think it would be possible to educate a child in Haredi schooling and at the same time give him a home education that fosters independent thinking,
so that one could gain from both worlds? (Both a high chance that the child will follow the path of Torah and also enjoy the fruits of this world.)