Q&A: Questions About the Laws of Sorting on the Sabbath
Questions About the Laws of Sorting on the Sabbath
Question
Hello Honorable Rabbi,
I would like to ask several questions about the laws of sorting:
- Using a ladle to serve soup on the Sabbath:
When I serve soup with a ladle, and in the ladle there is a mixture of liquid (soup) and vegetables, and I want to reduce the amount of liquid a bit but still leave a significant amount of liquid in the ladle together with the vegetables, is it permitted to hold the ladle against the side of the pot so that some of the liquid drains out, thereby leaving less liquid in the ladle but still together with the vegetables?
Can it be argued that in such a case this is not “sorting,” since liquid still remains in the ladle, and that clearly shows that I do not intend to treat the liquid as “waste,” but rather as part of the overall serving?
- Relying on lenient opinions in extenuating circumstances:
I understand that there are opinions in Jewish law (even if they are not the main opinions) that hold that there is no prohibition of sorting with liquids.
In a case of extenuating circumstances, is it possible to rely on those opinions? For example, if we are guests at the home of Sabbath-observant friends who are not expert in the details of the laws of sorting, and I notice that they are doing something that is considered “sorting” according to the accepted view, but I know that if I point it out to them they will not change their behavior and may even be hurt.
In such a case, given the value I place on being hosted by friends and preserving their dignity, can one in that situation rely on the lenient opinions that there is no prohibition of sorting with liquids?
Answer
See the overview here: https://ph.yhb.org.il/01-11-12/ He forbids it (see around note 13 and in the note itself). I’m not completely sure I agree, but I’m not sure. With large pieces he is lenient: https://ph.yhb.org.il/01-11-13/
I don’t know what exactly you mean by sorting with liquids. But if there is a lenient opinion, there is room to be lenient. From your perspective, they are relying on it and you are respecting that. It’s not that you are doing the prohibition, but they are, so if they have what to rely on, why comment?
Discussion on Answer
You didn’t quote the passage I had in mind. He writes there that if soup remains in the ladle, one should not pour it back into the pot, because from his perspective it is waste. Seemingly he forbids what you asked about. I’m not sure whether he is talking about soup that remains in the ladle when there are also vegetables in it, in which case that is exactly your prohibition, or whether he is talking about soup alone; but in that case I don’t see any sorting at all. As for the prohibition itself, I’m not sure I agree.
As for sorting in liquid, you are talking about a solid inside a liquid, like vegetables in soup. I didn’t understand what you meant. In any case, I answered.
I feel like a baal teshuva with respect to the laws of sorting, and at a relatively older age I began improving in this area.
The people close to me are not careful about these laws, and some time ago I read all the laws of sorting in Peninei Halakha and also researched online, but many points are still unclear to me.
I want to check that I fully understood your answers:
1. In your opinion, in the case of reducing the soup while both vegetables and soup remain in the ladle, this is not sorting and it is permitted.
2. Regarding returning the spoonful, where Peninei Halakha writes:
“He should not pour the extra soup from the ladle back into the pot”
The Rabbi wrote:
“As for the prohibition itself, I’m not sure I agree.”
So in practice, do you permit it and would you pour the liquid back?
Or because you are uncertain, would you refrain from doing so out of doubt?
Personally, I didn’t understand Rabbi Melamed’s ruling. Almost every time we pour soup from the ladle into a bowl, something remains in the ladle. It seems strange to me that you can’t return it to the soup.
And I also want to thank the Rabbi personally for answering every question.
I asked several questions and learned a great deal from the Rabbi’s answers and from searching the responsa on the site.
In addition, I’m fascinated by the Rabbi’s YouTube series
“Innovation and Tradition”
I’ve gone through most of the lectures.
I wrote that I’m not sure about it. But this is rabbinic sorting, and there is room to be lenient.
As for returning soup from the ladle to the pot, I explained that I’m not sure he meant that. Indeed, it doesn’t seem that there should be a problem with it.
Thank you to the Rabbi for the response
I read the laws of sorting in Peninei Halakha.
I understand Peninei Halakha differently from the Rabbi (Michael Abraham).
Peninei Halakha writes:
“But he may lift the ladle out of the soup while it is close to the side [of the pot], in such a way that only the vegetables and noodles come up in the ladle, because he is not doing this in the manner of sorting with a utensil, but in the manner of taking the food.”
I understood from what is written here that as long as the ladle is inside the pot, it is permitted to tilt it a little in order to remove the water.
(Rabbi Melamed didn’t write to tilt it, but as I understand it, as long as the ladle is inside the pot one can strain it more.
Maybe I simply didn’t understand.)
Did I miss something?
Also, my question is a bit different from the case Rabbi Melamed describes, because in Peninei Halakha, as I understand it, he is dealing with a case where one wants only the vegetables, whereas in my case one takes out a lot of soup with vegetables and afterward dilutes the amount of soup in the ladle a bit by holding it against the side.
So that in the end there is soup and vegetables, but with a smaller amount of soup.
Is there perhaps room to be even more lenient and argue that even after the ladle is outside the pot, it is permitted to return it to the pot and hold it against the side in order to reduce the soup, so that a small amount of soup remains together with vegetables, but with less soup?
As for sorting in liquid, here is what is written on the Kosharot website at the following link:
https://www.kosharot.co.il/index2.php?id=42017&lang=HEB
Under the section “Sorting in Liquid”:
“Some say there is no sorting in liquid, and some say there is sorting in liquid.”
I really identify with the Rabbi’s practical approach and with what he wrote:
“But if there is a lenient opinion, there is room to be lenient. From your perspective, they are relying on it and you are respecting that. It’s not that you are doing the prohibition, but they are.”
I think that’s correct, and it is proper to try as much as possible to find reasons to eat at someone else’s home, as long as it stays within reasonably acceptable halakhic bounds.