Q&A: Women in a Minyan
Women in a Minyan
Question
Hello Rabbi,
I saw your answers regarding women being called up to the Torah. In one of your remarks you write that you are in favor of women’s minyanim and that 10 women can form a minyan.
- You reference the fact that you already wrote your opinion on the subject. I couldn’t find a discussion of this on your site, so if there is one, my apologies. I’d be glad to get a link; if not, I’d appreciate it if you could elaborate, especially in relation to the statements of the Sages on this topic.
The only source in the rabbinic literature on this subject that I found is the view that one slave can join nine men, but not two slaves with eight men. (Rabbi Eliezer freed his slave.) And usually women and slaves are treated as analogous to one another.
2. And if possible, I’d like to sharpen the question regarding Barekhu before the Torah reading: would women recite it, given that it is a matter of sanctity?
3. And one more question on the subject: can one say that since a woman who does not acknowledge the obligation of Torah reading (say, she declares this explicitly, or one sees in synagogue that she sits outside), perhaps we could say—like in the laws of an eruv—that someone who does not recognize his or her obligation in a certain religious act cannot join as a member of the minyan to perform it (as with an eruv)? (Obviously there are many men like this too, and the question applies to them as well, except that unfortunately today anyone with a Y chromosome gets called up, even secular atheists—so no proof can be brought from common practice.)
Sabbath שלום
Answer
Can you give me a link to the answers you’re referring to?
I don’t recall writing an article about this. It may be somewhere on the site (I also had comments on an article that argued otherwise, and perhaps that’s what I meant).
If women count toward a minyan, then of course they can also say a matter of sanctity. As an aside, I’ll note that the whole issue of a matter of sanctity is a mystery to me. What exactly is forbidden about saying it with fewer than ten? Which prohibition does one violate? Am I forbidden to sanctify the Holy One, blessed be He, with one or two people? Suppose I simply want to tell my friends, “Bless the Lord, who is blessed forever and ever.” Is that forbidden? I know it is commonly assumed to be forbidden, but I truly do not understand it.
As for your last question, it seems obvious to me that someone who does not recognize the matter does not count toward the minyan—both regarding men and regarding women. Personally, I do try, as far as it is in my power, not to call such people up to the Torah (for the obligatory aliyot) and not to count them toward a minyan.
Discussion on Answer
When you pray alone, do you say Kedushah and Barekhu?
Michi “the Censor” Abraham
According to your view, would an Israelite be allowed to go up onto the priests’ platform?
Rabbi Michi, I do not say them—and from that it follows that…?
Ben-Aniyim,
It should say: according to my reasoning (not my settled view; I’m still considering it). Obviously. Is an Israelite actually forbidden to say the verses of this blessing? Of course not—just without the blessing beforehand.
Women’s minyanim should be forbidden because of danger.
Regarding a matter of sanctity:
“But women may make a zimmun for themselves, or slaves for themselves, provided that they do not make a zimmun with the divine name.”
And in the laws of prayer: “What is communal prayer? One person prays aloud and everyone listens. This is not done with fewer than ten adult free persons… Likewise one does not say Kedushah, nor read from the Torah and recite the blessings before and after it, nor read the haftarah from the Prophets, except in the presence of ten.”
To the honorable Rabbi Michael,
It seems to me that the matter is simple: the prohibition is because of what might be called “lack of respect,” along the lines of the prohibition against praying in inappropriate clothing, bareheaded, and so on.
And to explain a bit more: although there are certain blessings / prayers / forms of address that may also be said by an individual, that is because by their very nature they are the kind of address etc. that an individual would say.
By contrast, there are rituals that are inherently public; such are Kaddish and Kedushah, and as such they have additional requirements beyond the basic requirements of addressing God. Just as there are rules of proper conduct for a delegation appearing before a king—is it respectful to the king if a delegation of two people appears before him, when normal etiquette is not to appear with fewer than ten?
Is it respectful that, in order to make up for this lack, they bring little children?
And so on and so on.
That’s an interesting suggestion. Usually I understood it to be like a blessing in vain or uttering the divine name in vain. But the questions of source and scope still stand. Clearly there is no prohibition against telling my friend, “Come, let us bless the Lord who is blessed,” or saying the phrases of Kedushah. By the way, even regarding a blessing in vain, one can discuss it in the same way. It is clear that fundamentally there is no obstacle to saying the formula of a blessing to the Holy One, blessed be He, just like that. Fine—if we say it is a rabbinic prohibition, then they established such a prohibition (though it is still unclear to me what its scope is. Am I forbidden to say the text of the blessing just in order to bless the Holy One, blessed be He? I’m not sure). But according to the views that this is a Torah prohibition because of “You shall not take [the name of the Lord your God] in vain,” it is not clear to me what prohibition there is here.
I think it’s both, and that’s what I meant by defining these things as public ritual.
In the words of Maimonides: “What is communal prayer? One person prays aloud and everyone listens; and this is not done with fewer than ten adult free persons, and the prayer leader is one of them. Even if some of them have already prayed and fulfilled their obligation, they complete the ten for them, provided that the majority of the ten have not yet prayed. Likewise one does not say Kedushah, nor read from the Torah and recite the blessings before and after it, nor read the haftarah from the Prophets, except with ten.”
Since this is communal prayer, then certainly there is an aspect here of a blessing in vain, and all the other things relevant also in individual prayer. But in addition, as a second layer, there is the matter of publicness, and for all these things there must be a certain form. From the Talmud it appears that there is no resting of the Divine Presence with fewer than that. The question is why? And in my opinion (my personal opinion only, of course), one can hear that with fewer than that, it is not respectful to the King of the world.
I think you can say to your friend, “Come, let us bless the Lord,” just as a person says to his friend, “Look how beautiful / providential / etc. this is—say thank you!” And surely no one would imagine there is any problem with that. But once these things were established as the mode of public ritual, one no longer has permission to do that exact same thing on a different platform that does not meet the established rules.
To me this is similar to the prohibition against offering sacrifices on private altars, or to the need to introduce something new in a voluntary prayer.
Of course I am only writing my own opinion.
As for a blessing in vain—I don’t know. But I have in mind that once everyone was permitted to bless in whatever elegant language he chose, etc., until the generations declined and they established rules and fixed formulas. These matters are well known. So I ask: who holds that there is a Torah prohibition in this?
That is a well-known dispute among the medieval authorities. See, for example, Tosafot at the end of Rosh Hashanah (33a), as against Maimonides, Laws of Blessings 1:15, and Shulchan Arukh 215:4.
Hello Rabbi Michi,
“One does not recite the blessings surrounding the Shema responsively, and one does not go before the ark, and one does not raise the hands for the priestly blessing, and one does not read from the Torah, and one does not read the haftarah from the Prophets, and one does not perform the standing and sitting ceremony, and one does not say the mourners’ blessing and consolation of mourners, or the bridegrooms’ blessing, and one does not do a zimmun with the divine name with fewer than ten; and for land valuations—nine and a priest, and a person similarly” (Megillah 23b)
As for where it says it is forbidden to say it—I’m surprised that the Rabbi claims he does not understand this. As far as I understand, there really is no prohibition against saying it. The issue is the effectuation of the “sanctity” itself… Apparently this is explicit in the Geonim and the medieval authorities; could the Rabbi explain what he means?
Binyamin “the Censored” Gurlin