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Q&A: Why think the Torah is eternal?

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Why think the Torah is eternal?

Question

If the Torah describes a covenant between the Holy One, blessed be He, and Israel — “and if you indeed obey,” etc., the blessings and curses in the sections of Bechukotai and Ki Tavo — and today the Holy One, blessed be He, does not intervene in creation, then why think He intended that we should still keep the Torah today? After all, the Torah does not speak of a dry command with one-sided obligation, but of a covenant between two sides. So apparently the Holy One, blessed be He, intended the Torah only for the period in which all this mutuality exists (assuming that in the era of the prophets it really did exist).

Answer

Because that is what He told us. The Torah also says, “I will raise up for them a prophet from among their brethren,” and today He does not raise one up for us.

Discussion on Answer

Someone (2020-06-11)

Nowhere in the Torah does it say that it is eternal. True, there are expressions like “forever” and “an everlasting statute,” but that can be interpreted as meaning a very long time, like “and he shall serve him forever” regarding a Canaanite slave, where it means until the Jubilee. In Sefer Ha-Ikkarim (3:16), he elaborates in explaining that there is no proof in the Torah itself that it is eternal.
As for what the Rabbi brought from the verse “I will raise up a prophet,” etc., I did not understand what he meant. Where does it say here that there will be prophets forever and ever? The Holy One, blessed be He, only said that there would be prophets, and indeed there were prophets in Israel for a very long period.

Michi (2020-06-11)

The tradition says it is eternal.
I didn’t understand your claim. Am I supposed to bring proof that there must be prophets forever, otherwise there is no difficulty in my words, but you can claim that there must be involvement of the Holy One, blessed be He, forever and don’t need to bring proof?

The Last Decisor (2020-06-11)

What does “today the Holy One, blessed be He, does not intervene in creation” mean?
We observe the Sabbath because God rested on the seventh day, after He finished creation. Are you basically demanding that He stop His Sabbath rest and violate it for your sake?

The Last Decisor (2020-06-11)

As for the eternity of the Torah.
The Torah is not eternal. But the punishments that the Jewish people have taken, are taking, and will take for not keeping the Torah will not cease as long as we do not keep the Torah. That is indeed written in the Torah.

Someone (2020-06-11)

“I didn’t understand your claim. Am I supposed to bring proof that there must be prophets forever, otherwise there is no difficulty in my words, but you can claim that there must be involvement of the Holy One, blessed be He, forever and don’t need to bring proof?”

I didn’t understand a single word of our Rabbi’s remarks. I never claimed that “there must be involvement forever.” I claimed that since the Torah speaks about a state of involvement, and its commandments are given as a covenant between the Creator — who intervenes — and the created beings — who keep the commandments — then apparently it is intended only for this period in which the covenant exists between the two sides.
What does that have to do with the verse “I will raise up a prophet,” etc.? If anything, maybe one could learn from there that the Torah is intended only for the prophetic era, when there was divine involvement in creation.

Michi (2020-06-11)

So yes, you understood every word perfectly. That is exactly what I claimed: according to your view, everything in the Torah must be forever, or alternatively, once it stops there is no more religious obligation. I disagree.

Someone (2020-06-11)

I did not claim that everything has to be, etc.; certainly not some specific section in the Torah — that was the example from the verses about a prophet.
I am only claiming that since throughout the entire Torah (!) a covenant between two sides is presented, and not a one-sided obligation, then apparently the Holy One, blessed be He, did not intend to command us and disappear, but to make a covenant with us. And if we see that at a certain stage the covenant stopped — for after all, He no longer fulfills His part — then apparently He intended the Torah to be temporary and designated only for the period of divine involvement in creation.
There are more reasons to assume that the Torah was not intended to be eternal at all. According to Maimonides, who held that the commandments of the Torah were meant to bring human beings to abandon idol worship, there is certainly no reason to think that the Holy One, blessed be He, would require us to keep the commandments even when idols have almost disappeared from the world — certainly from the civilized world. I’m not talking about pagan tribes in the Far East. Apparently He intended the Torah to be temporary, until the civilized world abandoned idolatry. And now His goal has been achieved, and through Judaism — mainly via its daughters Christianity and Islam — idols have passed from the world.

The Last Decisor (2020-06-12)

The Torah is certainly eternal.
“And this is the Torah that Moses set before the children of Israel” — that is, so long as the various Hitlers do not succeed in their plot to destroy us, the Torah of Moses is before us.

w (2020-06-12)

There is a clear and simple difference: “I will raise up a prophet,” etc., indeed was fulfilled. To validate the verse, one prophet is enough for me. By contrast, the “conditions” that God gave to one who keeps His Torah are not fulfilled — “and I will give your rains in their season,” for example — because there is no individual providence, for instance. If so, a fundamental condition is missing here for fulfilling the contract of the Giver of the Torah. And accordingly it is difficult to understand what relevance Torah observance has today if its conditions, which are explicit in the verses, are not fulfilled.

The Last Decisor (2020-06-14)

Where did you see that “and I will give your rains in their season” is not being fulfilled?
In general, where did you see that anyone is keeping the Torah? Even the important Sabbatical year has been uprooted from the root.

w (2020-06-15)

I saw it in the view that individual providence has ceased.
I have seen many people keeping commandments.
The Sabbatical year was uprooted because the condition for the commandment is not fulfilled. So it was not uprooted; rather, it was not said in such a case. And precisely because of this I say that without fulfillment of the condition of “and I will give your rains,” which follows from there being no individual providence, then once the condition is void, the commandment is void. And since this condition applies to all the commandments — as is explained there in the verses — then when it is not fulfilled, all the commandments do not apply at all. And in your words, they have been uprooted from the root.

The Last Decisor (2020-06-15)

Where is it written that there is individual providence?
The Torah usually speaks at the level of the nation. “Your rains” is in the plural. If one person keeps commandments and the rest do not, that does not interest the Torah. The Jewish people matter.
In any case, the Sabbatical year was uprooted because the Jews cannot keep it, especially the remission of debts. In that, the Jews went after the ways of the nations.

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