Q&A: If the Earlier Ones Were Like Donkeys …
If the Earlier Ones Were Like Donkeys …
Question
Hello Rabbi,
More than once we come across some report or other about famous people who, in their lives and after their deaths, served as model personalities worthy of emulation—and then suddenly accounts emerge from people in closer circles that shake the outline of that figure and illuminate its darker sides. In recent weeks there has been a minor storm around the new book by the writer Galia Oz, Something Disguised as Love, where she described an unhealthy relationship (to put it mildly) between herself and her father, the well-known writer Amos Oz.
These things raised for me, and for many others, quite a few questions—some specific and some more general.
I’d be glad to hear your opinion (even if only on some of them).
- In this particular case of violent treatment of children, does the Rabbi think that in that period (and even long afterward) awareness was fundamentally different from what it is today? In other words, it’s easy for us to be shocked and denounce such acts, while in that era almost every boy and girl got a taste of education with a staff of punishment (in one dose or another). Likewise, displays of affection that strangers would shower on any random child make us uncomfortable today as well. (It seems to me the Rabbi once gave an amusing description here about Paul Erdős, but that’s not the place to elaborate.)
- What degree of fairness is there in airing the dirty laundry of someone who, God forbid, is no longer alive and has no way to respond? Sometimes timing doesn’t allow it, or shame fades over the years and only later does the courage come. But sometimes there’s a feeling that people are simply waiting for an opportune moment, and it’s much more convenient for them to present their version when there’s no one left who can refute the claims.
- More generally, to what extent can one separate the deeds and exploits of the artist or creator, the man of letters, from his works or ideas—along the lines of “he ate the fruit and threw away the peel”?
Thank you very much.
Answer
- Obviously there are differences in norms between periods, but there are behaviors that were not normative even then. If one accepts Galia’s descriptions, then it seems this crossed the line even then. But it’s not clear whether her descriptions are accurate. People describe things in different ways, especially when it comes to childhood. Memories do not always reflect reality as it truly was. Sometimes these are interpretations and exaggerations; sometimes frustrations or even various mental illnesses underlie the matter. I have no idea what exactly is involved here, but I would be cautious about drawing conclusions about Amos Oz based on these descriptions.
- When a person has been hurt, he doesn’t exactly make calculations of fairness when he publicizes the matter. If he is taking the opportunity to tell lies, that is of course wrong, even if the target of the lies is still alive and well.
- There is no connection whatsoever. So I don’t understand these questions to begin with. Why do you assume that Amos Oz is supposed to be a moral exemplar in his personal life? The fact that he is a good writer—and even if one accepts his social-political rebukes—has not the slightest connection to his personal life. Claims should be discussed on their own merits, regardless of who makes them. So in my view, the whole discussion of his personal life is an irrelevant topic that is mainly of gossip interest, and perhaps also contains a bit of a personal lesson. No more than that.
Discussion on Answer
Of course there was also shame about telling parents, and even anyone who wasn’t ashamed—in that Hasidic group it was hushed up.
And again, to the best of my knowledge [from my brothers in later classes], this continued throughout the years.
At long last he passed away. [Some of his students are already grandfathers.] His whole Hasidic community knew who he was…
When he died, the Haredi websites filled up with eulogies about how devoted he was to children… and how close he was to the Rebbe… and other such virtues.
All the students who read it exploded…
But I thought you simply can’t trample on the dozens or hundreds of direct victims [especially when some of the acts were done in humiliating shame before the whole class… something you don’t forget until you go down to the grave].
I consulted a rabbi who is a Torah scholar, and one of my teachers in academia.
And he argued that I was wrong and that it shouldn’t be publicized. Because in the previous generation it was known in advance who would become a teacher: the town nebbish, the failure, or the adulterer who got thrown out of every possible place…
And therefore it was accepted and legitimate that miserable teachers would vent their urges on little children. So there was no need to publicize it and shame the family…
There’s a bug on the site that doesn’t let you send a response longer than a few sentences.
Maybe later I’ll send another shocking story that will give more perspective…
Publishing shocking and serious stories with absolutely no details is, pardon me, not serious. When there is no way for anyone to verify the story—and all the more so when you are not known to anyone—then it’s hard (for me) to treat the story as basically credible. On the substance: that rabbi who told you not to publish it, if such a person really exists and he was convinced the story was true, then in my opinion he is a pathetic person with completely twisted thinking. There is an obligation to publicize it in order to prevent such things from happening again, and if the story is true then the rest of the nebbishes should hear and tremble.
I was in the classroom when these things were done, in front of everyone—what is there to argue about?
And we also heard the same from the classes before us, and from the classes after us.
You can disagree with that rabbi-professor mentioned above, but he had the argument that when the world progresses [on the assumption and hope that today this is not legitimate], then you can judge according to the morality that was likely accepted at the time of the offense, and in the relevant place and community.
And not judge an act from then by the rules practiced today.
That distorts all proportion…
The comment-size limit (in the responsa section) can be dealt with by pressing the TAB key once or several times until the “Reply” button, which got covered up, is revealed again.
And as a mnemonic: just as the “decline of the generations” increases their capacity to absorb, so too the descent of the “tab” increases the capacity of the comment, as it is written: “Better to sit than to stand” 🙂
And now to the second case.
A Haredi young woman one day informed her family that she had to marry so-and-so, because she was pregnant by him.
Fine, they arranged a quick wedding.
Her father [the parents were divorced] was not to be invited and was forbidden from being informed.
She then had another child, and another.
The father [a baal teshuva with good intentions, but who has difficulty communicating normally with people] noticed that for a long period she wasn’t answering phone calls, and everyone was dodging him when he asked about her…
He looked into it and heard that she had gotten married and had children…
He started investigating.
Until he found out that his beloved daughter was spreading claims about him that he had done unspeakable things to her, and that was why she was cutting off contact…
He was beside himself, and his honor too…
After all, it was a vile slander…
On the other hand, nowadays it’s accepted to believe anyone who makes such a claim.
Luckily for him, he had a good friend—a famous rabbi, a spiritual supervisor in a yeshiva… [and he had almost finished a doctorate], a sharp man.
That rabbi of blessed memory told him:
Take my advice.
This will pursue you to the grave and even after.
If it’s important to you that the truth come out, spread the word throughout the family that you demand she go to the police and file a complaint. You’ll be investigated, it will get to court, and in court it will become clear that the whole thing is a bluff…
It’s unpleasant, but you have no other choice.
Luckily he did that.
He informed the whole family that he would not tolerate being slandered, and that he demanded a police complaint…
You’ll be surprised: as soon as she heard from the people around her that this was what would be required of her if she herself really believed that this was what had happened—and that until she did so she would be presumed to be bluffing—
she stopped making the claim.
And slowly, normal contact with the father resumed…
In the end she was hospitalized in a locked ward…
It became known that she suffered from… and…
So not every claim must be believed even while the person involved is still alive.
Sometimes we’re dealing with mental illness, and the lady tells herself all kinds of stories…
And maybe that helps her temporarily deny problems she has and she tries to bluff herself.
This story too I know very closely from within the family…
Of course, recently there was also something published about a respected rabbi at an ulpana, where one woman told Arabian Nights-style tales about him.
In court it was proven that none of it had happened and nothing of the sort had ever been. She even admitted in court that the stories were drawn from her fantasies…
But that one I don’t know personally.
The 2 stories I brought, I know personally, very very closely.
You don’t have to believe every story. Certainly not after the person being talked about can no longer defend himself… and probably there is also a different proportion for different behaviors across the span of generations…
Correction:
Across the span of generations.
In angry Yiddish it should be:
A Matter of the Ascent of the Generations
Regards,
The Academy of the Yiddish Language
It seems to me that the discussion here has been completely exhausted. Plain anonymous stories are of no use whatsoever.
I don’t know what was with that writer back then.
I just have 2 stories that maybe can give you some perspective.
Both are real, and I know them from very close personal experience.
1. A very famous teacher in a very famous Haredi elementary school passed away—to the joy of hundreds, maybe thousands, of his students.
And why joy? Very simple: he was a known sex offender. To the point that he couldn’t restrain himself, and he did severe things to children. Some of the acts were done in full view of the whole class, very publicly…
All of us kids knew about his deeds, and we accepted it as a decree of fate.