Q&A: We ended up with a dishonest store manager…
We ended up with a dishonest store manager…
Question
A grocery store in a fairly remote and isolated place. The manager is plainly dishonest and suspected [and has been caught] in money matters, and also in kashrut matters, even very serious ones [non-kosher-for-Passover food during Passover was sold mixed together with what was supposed to be kosher for Passover, without updating the customers…], and other such deeds…
He is of course religious, with a kippah… and the place is a religious place… but that is the situation…
That manager decided to save on the cost of the bags themselves and announced that starting from a certain date, 10 agorot would be charged for every bag and the money would go to the poor.
A. It is not at all clear that he will actually give the money to the poor; he has already been caught stealing from the public… [and even refused to return it until I managed to force him… and it is not clear to me that he did return it…]
B. It is illegal [it does not meet the conditions of the Bags Law]
I turned to the relevant authorities, and as expected it is very complicated to file a complaint… There is enforcement against those who do not charge 10 agorot for bags, and that same body is also supposed to supervise those who charge 10 agorot for bags unlawfully. In practice: go here, file there, send an email to so-and-so who will forward it to someone else… In short, an inaccessible body that is failing in its job…
I noticed that the cashiers usually do not charge for the bags unless you tell them, “I took this many bags.”
And when I do not tell them, they do not charge.
Am I allowed to take bags for my groceries without telling them?
[From what I clarified with that non-functioning department, that is indeed the law. He should even be fined, except that the department is negligent in enforcement, but in their opinion it is clearly the law. And according to the law he is an outright thief, and the sale and purchase are on the basis of the law.] I would be glad for the Rabbi’s answer, many thanks.
Answer
I didn’t understand any of this.
Discussion on Answer
I don’t understand. The law requires charging 10 agorot per bag.
It requires it in certain places and under certain conditions [network size, certain areas], and forbids it under certain conditions.
He is in a situation where it is forbidden…
I checked with the unit responsible for the matter; the law is clear. The offense is prohibited for both sides, except that the enforcement unit is negligent and ineffective.
Bottom line: according to the law he is a complete thief.
[Even though he claims that he transfers the money to the poor, according to the law it is outright theft, since this is by compulsion and not a voluntary donation for whoever wishes.]
1. I did not find any prohibition in the law against selling bags. I saw there only a prohibition against giving them out for free.
2. In any case, even if there is such a prohibition, he is not a thief but a person who violates the law. That is not the same thing.
3. If you do not want to, then do not buy from him.
4. You can of course report him to the competent authorities and inform them that he is a lawbreaker (if he indeed is one).
5. I do not see any permission to steal from him.
Assuming the Rabbi is right about 2 [I too, in my humble opinion, thought that he was violating the law, and that is also what I was told by the legal body in charge of implementing and enforcing this law], why is he not a thief?
He charges what the law forbids him to charge…
Regarding 3, he won the tender [on the understanding that he would operate honestly and lawfully, and he is not doing that…] and he is the only one in the area…
4. The authorities tell me explicitly that he is a lawbreaker. But for some reason they are cumbersome about enforcement…
5. In the absence of enforcement, may a person take the law into his own hands?
I still do not understand how a person who sells bags for money has broken the law.
In any case, for someone to be a thief, he has to take money from someone without its being due to him. He is selling you a bag at cost price. The law forbids this, so he is violating the law. But he is not just taking money from you for nothing. You received something in exchange for it. (In any case, he can always say that the price of the products went up a bit for him because the bags are free.) If a person opens a store in a place where, according to the law, he is not permitted to, and he sells you bread, can you then not pay him?
In short, you cannot take the law into your own hands, because even if he is violating the law, that is not your law to enforce but the authorities’. Why should some random person come and steal money from him, unrelated to the fact that he is not even buying from him? He would be enforcing the authorities’ law on his own.
I do not know what the terms of the tender were (if there even was a tender. Does a grocery store have a tender?), but even if he won the tender unlawfully, again, that is not theft, and you are not the one who can act in such a case. That is not self-help; it belongs to the authorities. You can report it to them, and that is all.
A grocery store in a central city like Lod does not have a tender…
For some remote communities they have to make a tender so there will be one operator. And on the other hand, that there will indeed be only one [otherwise there will be several loss-making stores that do not function]. It is a matter of knowing the reality outside one’s own four cubits…
The manager charges 10 agorot [by force] for every bag contrary to the law. That is unlawful, but the law-enforcement authorities are far too cumbersome…
Am I allowed to take bags as needed without telling the lazy cashiers? [They do not look, and in many cases they simply forget to ask…]
At the end of the day, the purchase is on the basis of the law, and according to the law he is forbidden to charge and is an actual thief. [The claim “if you do not like it, go to another grocery store” is less relevant because there is no other one in the area.]
And likewise, am I allowed to count, for example, 100 bags for which he took money from me unlawfully, and put a product worth 10 shekels in my pocket without paying, in order to return the theft to myself?