Q&A: Separation for Haredim
Separation for Haredim
Question
What do you think about separation for Haredim in academia? On the one hand, the Haredim argue that as a community they have the right to live the way they want, and that this should be respected. On the other hand, the general public says this harms equality for female lecturers. And that it could spill over into other places, like public transportation. And that there is no serious halakhic source for it. And that it’s basically trolling, because in the job market they work with women without any problem. So the question is: just because they say this, and we have an interest in it (helping the economy), should we respect it, or should liberal values prevail?
Answer
In my opinion, this should be respected. It does not seriously harm equality for female lecturers, since they can lecture to Haredi women or in the general settings. But even if there is some harm, a person has the right to study according to his values and beliefs. Of course, lecturers who oppose this do not have to teach in such frameworks. Of course, nothing needs to be done to build suitable systems for them. But they should be allowed to build them (under academic supervision).
Regarding liberal values, I’m speaking in their name. Liberal values indeed should prevail, and therefore Haredim should be allowed to study in accordance with their own understanding.
As for mixed workplaces, indeed there are difficulties with Haredi beliefs here (it can be reconciled, though only with some strain), but that is what they want. The same applies to difficulties with liberal values, which for some reason are forgotten and reversed when it comes to other groups (that are not liberal).
Discussion on Answer
Uriya,
I can agree to a small extent. But as for the second part, I think that’s in your head. Someone who looks at other women and desires them will find someone to look at.
I’m flooded with images, God have mercy (I work in content production, television, cinema, etc.), and I don’t feel it harms me. Besides that, it’s not clear to me why you think a religious person is flooded with images more than a Haredi one. It depends where he lives and works. A Haredi person can live in a coastal city and a religious person in Jerusalem. Even if there is a difference, it’s very slight.
I’ll go even further and argue—with a wildly unfair generalization, for the sake of the point—that in certain communities, Haredim are less modest than religious people. Because the emphasis is on turning modesty into dry rules, like socks and sleeve length, while the feeling is neglected, and therefore “modern Haredi women” can, within the limits of the dry law, dress immodestly. Whereas many religious women—recklessly without socks, God have mercy—are often dressed with genuine modesty.
David S.,
Glad you understood the beginning of what I said.
As for the data you brought up, I’m not a defender of the Haredi public, just a Jew who is impressed by the devotion and totality of a certain group within the Jewish people toward Torah—something that doesn’t exist in the group I belong to (and I studied at Mercaz HaRav). But it’s simply not true—go and see. A Haredi man observes “and you shall not stray” much more. First, because he grew up in a community that gives more importance and value to meticulous observance and fulfillment of Jewish law. Second, because that is the atmosphere and spirit in their community, so that even if a Haredi Jew is a bit spiritually rotten, the public atmosphere “holds” him in this regard (even if not perfectly).
And also, in my opinion you are very mistaken. If you don’t feel that immodest images harm you—forgive me, brother, but if so, then by your own account you are like a blind man bragging that he isn’t dazzled by the sun. Is that a virtue? It’s a weakness. So too here: if you aren’t dazzled by women’s beauty, that’s a sign your mechanisms of desire toward women have become worn out. And a man whose mechanisms are worn down like this—the last thing he can do is enjoy his wife. So I share in your pain, dear Jew ❤️.
And again, I’m not defending the Haredim. It’s just that from exposure to that community over the past two years, the penny dropped for me. True, they are not perfect, but they are the lesser evil. They are much closer to Torah than we are, and you and I are the proof of that. A Jewish man doesn’t work in an office with half-dressed women in the summer like I do, and certainly not in cinema and being exposed to content from the fiftieth gate. We are the fruit and product of the religious-secular society hybrid.
It hurts, from a hurting heart. Sorry. I’d appreciate a substantive response.
Uriya,
I don’t know what kind of “go and see” you did and what you found. From the little data there is on the subject, the picture you paint does not emerge.
I’m going to write some harsh data, so let me stress beforehand: I do not mean to generalize, and the overwhelming majority of individuals in the Haredi community have nothing to do with the data below. Besides that, it also has certain virtues in this area, and of course it deserves some credit for modesty. And the comparison is with the religious public, not the secular one, regarding whom my views (on the issue of modesty) are quite negative. Regarding the Haredi public, I mainly objected to your praise; I didn’t rush to condemn. So here goes:
The Haredi public is the largest consumer of prostitution—as a matter of fact. And a jungle of sexual offenses—which is not based on data (or maybe it is; not that I’ve heard of such data). Maybe that’s just an image tied to other problems in how they deal with criminals. Either way, in my own “go and see,” I did not encounter any especially impressive level of “and you shall not stray” that I hadn’t seen before.
As for erosion, there’s no doubt it exists and plays a major role; I almost wrote that myself. There is some negative element in it, but not as you describe. I really liked your analogy of the blind man, but it’s not accurate. If the erosion of the threshold from stimulating images were total to the point of blindness, the world would look completely different. You can take this much further than promiscuity in the streets—ultimately, many Haredim watch pornography (I find it hard to believe the percentages are different from religious people), and despite the enormous destruction, you still seem to have gotten an impression of impressive “and you shall not stray.” (By the way, the destruction in pornography that comes from erosion is, in my opinion, tiny and negligible compared to the destruction in worldview among singles and the pointless gratification of physical need among men.)
I don’t want to get into such fine-grained detail, but I’ll put it this way: if the “erosion” I have really does cause me to desire my wife less, as you confidently claim, then without it I would desire her even more than I do now—and that would be dangerous.
I don’t want to act like you and draw conclusions about someone else, but in my opinion, if you feel your desire for your wife is dropping because of the women around you, I’d suggest trying to examine other avenues for improvement besides changing environment. Heaven forbid, I don’t think your case is especially unusual. In my opinion, this is the first symptom of a marriage in crisis, or just extreme boredom. And about that I wrote that in such a situation, the Haredi man too looks at the promiscuous women wearing a wig that’s too long, God have mercy.
As you wrote, erosion exists (and as stated, I’m not trying to claim there isn’t a trace of problematicity in it), but it usually doesn’t lead to blindness (except maybe among heavy pornography addicts), but rather to a change in the threshold of stimulation at a level that is within reason. After all, in the past they wore shawls, and a modern rebbetzin appearing in the days of the Second Temple would be considered a prostitute.
I have many reservations about what I’m writing, and I don’t have the strength to spell them all out. Everything is being said gently, and I’m talking about the differences between the Haredi and religious publics. I have a great deal of criticism of the promiscuity prevalent in the world, and I’d be sorry if I were taken as defending it. I already wrote that I agree to a small extent with what you said.
By the way, regarding what you wrote—that the Haredim are much closer to Torah—I disagree much more strongly, but I have no desire to get into that different discussion.
There are studies and data. See a brief overview here: https://www.ynet.co.il/judaism/article/rj1ybxwms
A good friend of mine who was a senior district court judge told me from his experience that there is definitely a very strong dominance of Haredim in sexual offenses.
By the way, it turns out this is true of religious people too, not only Haredim.
Here is the article itself: https://toravoda.org.il/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%94-%D7%A4%D7%92%D7%99%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%99-%D7%A4%D7%99%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%97-%D7%A2%D7%9D-%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%A8-%D7%9E%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%93%D7%9B%D7%9F-29-9-1.pdf
That fellow—actually, all my Haredi friends who do work, work with as much separation as possible. Their seriousness about modesty and avoiding mixing between men and women דווקא makes me feel appreciation and even envy. If only in our Religious Zionist community too the atmosphere around modesty and promiscuity would become more serious.
Personally, it’s not fun for me to work (in high-tech) with beautiful secular women in the office. It’s not really something I chose; it’s just that the community I grew up in didn’t raise awareness about this. It’s clear to me that a Haredi man has a stronger desire for his wife than I have for mine, because he isn’t flooded with images of other women the way a religious man—and certainly a secular one—is.