A Tale of Two Conservative Conferences in Our City (Column 217)
With God's help
Usually, in Makor Rishon's Sabbath supplement one can find advertisements for conferences on subjects like experts in geography and Land of Israel studies discussing the cultivation of potsherds in the southern Judean Desert during the Middle Mamluk period. So for me it was refreshing to discover there an ad for a conference held on Thursday, 16 May, dealing with conservatism, namely the First Israeli Conservatism Conference (whose location, in that advertisement, was kept secret, presumably to ward off the evil eye). At the same time, I learned of another conference taking place on that very same day—much to the sorrow of conservative women—dealing with women in the Torah world, in memory of Rabbi Lichtenstein.[1] On second thought, perhaps there is no cause for concern, since conservatives will not be participating in the second conference, and vice versa. Both conferences stirred in me some somber reflections, chiefly about conservatism, and I thought to share them with you.
A Story with a Moral: The Frogs and the Milk Pail
There is a well-known folk tale about two frogs in a pail of milk, and here is the wording:
Two frogs fell into a pail of milk. The walls of the pail were slippery and could not be climbed. The frogs tried with all their might to jump and get out of the pail, but without success. The pail was too tall and the milk too deep. One of the frogs despaired, and after a short while stopped trying… and drowned. But the second frog did not give up—it pushed frantically with its hands and feet to keep its head above the milk and avoid drowning. Again and again it tried to spring and leap out. And then.. lo and behold… slowly a solid lump of butter began to form beneath its churning feet in the milk. With one jump the frog sprang up and escaped from the pail.
Surely you will not be surprised that, for me, this story evokes the opposite association. As I see it, there is one frog that simply climbs up and swims out, while the other tries to battle the milk with all its might and refuses to let the milk buoy it up. It pushes desperately with its hands and feet, and slowly the milk turns to butter. Our industrious little heroine, of course, gets stuck inside and dies.
For me, this inverted parable reflects a situation in which a person creates problems for himself where they do not really exist, and this entangles him in a search for solutions that itself kills him. And now back to our conferences.
The First Conference: Women in the Torah World
I understood that the questions to be examined in the third session of the study day concern mainly the role of the female spiritual guide and how it is to be integrated with the community rabbi. Let me provide some background for those unfortunate enough not to be sufficiently conversant. In recent years there has been a criminal tendency in some modern religious communities to place women in rabbinic roles (not as the rabbi's wives but as rabbis in their own right). But what can one do? Our tradition does not look kindly on this. As a solution, a new concept was invented: Maharat (= a leader in Jewish law, spirituality, and Torah), a position that can be held by a woman as well. It is a brilliant solution, since there is no problem appointing women to it because this office does not appear in the Shulchan Arukh (and therefore there is likewise no problem appointing women as ministers, Supreme Court justices, or prime ministers, and no one says a peep apart from a few oddballs from the ultra-conservative wing). From this, among other things, you can understand that there is already a Yeshivat Maharat in the United States that ordains Maharats. This idea, of course, arouses fierce opposition in the Orthodox leadership (from there they may eventually arrive at defining a woman as a rabbi, heaven forfend. Not for nothing did our sages of crystal-clear vision protest against them. And, as they foresaw with holy inspiration, indeed this is already almost happening in practice).
Very well, so for the moment we have defined Maharat (or, for the punctilious, Maharatit, so that it is clear that this is a woman. After all, a man too can be a leader in Jewish law, spirituality, and Torah. Equality, right?!). At the next stage, a discussion begins about integrating a Maharatit with a rabbi in the community (see the list of questions above). How will the responsibilities be divided, what will she do, what will his roles be, and so on. Only one option does not appear there among the questions for discussion: that there be no Maharatit but rather a woman rabbi without a rabbi beside her. That option does not even arise for theoretical discussion, although the "bold" option does arise that a Maharatit is nothing but a rabbi in disguise (provided they are careful that Rabbi Yosef Karo does not notice, God forbid).
What is especially amusing in this situation is that everyone knows where this is going. Everyone understands that all these people would like a woman to be able to serve as a rabbi, and everyone also understands that this is the right thing. And since these are rabbis and Torah scholars, I allow myself to assume that most of them also understand that there is no halakhic obstacle to this, apart from conservatism that lacks any real basis (and here we are already touching on the second conference, but I will keep you in suspense). But at the same time, everyone understands that the matter cannot be put openly on the table. Why? This is probably a combination of conservative instincts and confusion between them and Jewish law, and of course the "political" problems (it will not be accepted, it is still too early, and so on). Bottom line, the starting point is that we hold, as though it were a law given to Moses at Sinai (a law given to Moses at Sinai), that a woman is disqualified from the rabbinate, and so they look for bypasses. They have now found the brilliant bypass: Maharats. But the bypasses create problems of proper integration between this role and that of the community rabbi (for if there is no rabbi in the community, only a Maharatit, then there must also be a rabbi there). And thus we have arrived at the study day on women's leadership in the Torah world, which conducts discussions whose purpose is to solve this nonexistent problem.
All this is ostensibly conducted in an atmosphere of openness and liberalism, or religious innovation—an approach that at last gives women a place in spiritual leadership. But in fact there is a farce here, one played entirely on conservative turf. In other words, this is a discussion in the sociology of a conservative society: how it reconciles what it regards as right (that a woman should do whatever she wants and is able to do) with what is actually practiced (that a woman cannot be a rabbi), even though it is clear that this is senseless and has no validity (because there is no halakhic obstacle to a woman serving as a rabbi. See below). So they create, ex nihilo, funny titles and concepts like Maharatit. And now a learned discussion can begin about the integration between her and the rabbi, blah blah blah. A discussion that is wholly generated by the foolish constraints in which they themselves do not believe. Chad Gadya, Chad Gadya…
Are you beginning to see the frog and the butter? Instead of swimming straight up and out (that is, doing what is called for and what everyone thinks is right—appointing a woman as rabbi), these people get tangled in imaginary problems that they themselves created, thereby churning the milk into butter and choking in it. This obliges them to conduct absurd discussions that have nothing to do with Jewish law. How exactly will they determine the division of tasks there? Are there hints in Jewish law about the functions of a woman as leader of a community? This is a strategy session about how to appoint a woman as rabbi without letting Rabbi Yosef Karo know. For that purpose, one must define the new term Maharat and implement it in reality without stepping on anyone's toes. I will now explain this a bit more.
Is There Any Obstacle at All to Appointing a Woman as Rabbi?
Underlying all this is the question: what on earth is the problem here? The question of women's Torah study is apparently already behind us. Everyone understands that women can—and perhaps should—study Torah, each according to her level and dignity. So that is not what the discussion is about. Ostensibly, the question of positions of authority for women (entrusting offices that involve power) is what stands on the agenda. But doesn't it seem a bit strange, not to say bizarre and detached, when there are women prime ministers, ministers, and Supreme Court justices (including presidents of the Supreme Court), to discuss entrusting the supreme position of authority of the rabbi of the "Akhvat Moshe" community in the synagogue of Kfar Etrog to a woman? I have never heard rabbinic and halakhic discussions about appointing women to positions like Supreme Court justice or minister, but for a woman rabbi—sorry, a Maharatit—to serve a community requires conferences and deep, learned discussion.
These discussions resemble, in my eyes, the discussions that were conducted about women saying Kaddish. I opened my article on first- and second-order halakhic ruling with "learned" discussions dealing with women saying Kaddish. I pointed out there that these are discussions built in a very odd way. No one defines what halakhic problem is being addressed, and not by accident. There is no such problem. One could speak about a woman's voice is considered sexually immodest (a woman's voice being deemed sexually provocative), or about modesty. But relative to the accepted norms in our mixed communities, where women take part in every sphere of life and in the community as well, these discussions look completely detached and utterly implausible. We are already long past the question of a woman's voice, especially in this context (to the extent that there is any such problem in the synagogue at all). Questions of modesty in a woman's appearance before a congregation are, at most, a bad joke under our circumstances. And yet the discussion brings various sources this way and that, proofs and fine distinctions from the language of halakhic decisors for and against, when in fact there is no problem here to address at all. Once again, people drown in the butter that they themselves, through their rescue efforts, have churned.
I explained there that an orderly halakhic discussion should begin with an analysis of the question and identification of the halakhic components that are relevant to it: Torah commandments and prohibitions, rabbinic enactments or decrees, or customs and halakhic policy. After laying out the conceptual map, a discussion should open on each of the items and on their application to our case, and finally one should summarize what emerges from all this for the question at hand and conclude with a halakhic ruling. One cannot begin a discussion by bringing sources this way and that when there are no halakhic categories on the table at all. It is like discussing whether it is permitted to watch birds at the Hula Lake and bringing proofs from nuanced readings of the wording of halakhic decisors who saw birds in various places. What is missing here is the most basic infrastructure: what are the halakhic categories at issue? What exactly is there to discuss? As I wrote there, if I had to write a responsum on women saying Kaddish, it would be formulated roughly as follows: permitted, because there is no reason whatever to forbid it (non-issue). Afterwards one may perhaps speak about social meanings, recommend or oppose, but that is truly no longer a halakhic matter. Such disconnected halakhic responses can appear only when one relates to Jewish law at the second order, that is, when one relies on sources without analyzing the matter from its foundations.
Everything That Is Not Forbidden Is Permitted
In the legal world, the principle of legality is accepted, according to which, for the citizen, everything that is not forbidden is permitted (and with respect to the authorities, the reverse). The same is true in Jewish law: everything that is not forbidden is permitted. The burden of proof and of argument lies on the one who claims that a prohibition exists. He must explain on the basis of which categories he says so. Only after prohibitory categories are raised, if any, is there room to begin discussing whether to permit.
This is precisely the situation with respect to a woman serving as community rabbi. One may discuss women's Torah study, but that is already behind us. Assigning positions of authority to women is likewise something we are long past. So what exactly is being discussed here? What is the problem with a woman (who is suited to it in terms of personality and knowledge) serving as community rabbi? But among us, even in the most liberal communities (except one, among those I know), this is not even thinkable. The most liberal communities discuss the question of how to integrate a Maharatit with the rabbi's role, essentially how to square the circle, while the option of appointing a woman rabbi is not on the agenda at all. This is a result of second-order halakhic thinking: it is accepted that we do not appoint one, and we have no sources that permit appointing one, and that is that. But there is no problem here at all, so why are sources needed? It is simply beside the point.
Lack of Proportion
It is interesting to note that Professor David Halivni, one of the best-known Talmud scholars, left the Conservative movement over this issue. I have always wondered how he was willing to swallow everything else there, yet a banal matter like appointing women as rabbis was what broke him. I now saw in Wikipedia that similar criticism was indeed leveled at him (see note 1 there):
Moderate organizations like "Edah" rejected Halivni with the argument that he and his supporters did not express opposition to issues like permitting driving on the Sabbath or the effective nullification of many of the laws governing marital relations, yet they withdrew precisely over a borderline issue like women's ordination.
That reminds me of the well-known story about the Sha'agat Aryeh, who arrived in some community to serve as its rabbi and asked for the community record book (the place where all the customs practiced there are written down). They brought him the book, and he began copying the Ten Commandments into it. When they asked him what this meant, he explained that he was trying to ensure that people would be as careful about the Ten Commandments as they are about who says Kaddish and when.
There are quite a few serious problems in religious society, in Jewish law and in Torah worldview. There is secularization on worrying scales, and there are also difficult halakhic questions and serious hardships. It seems strange to me to devote a session to discussing the integration of a Maharatit's role with that of a community rabbi. I am sorry, but it sounds bizarre to me. It may be that this disconnection is one of the reasons for some of the problems I listed.
The Conservatism Conference
Here I come to the First Israeli Conservatism Conference. When I saw the heading, my initial reaction was a snicker. I do not know, but there is something stale and repellent, in my eyes, about conservatism as a matter of principle. It seems strange to me to hold a conference whose purpose is to advance an anachronistic endeavor, that is, to move forward toward the past. But on second thought I said to myself that, by the same token, innovation is not a value in my eyes either.
A person who adopts a certain position on the basis of substantive considerations, and it happens to come out conservative (matching what existed in the past), is not a conservative. The same is true of one who adopts, on the basis of substantive considerations, a new position—he is not an innovator. Conservatism and innovation as ideologies mean adopting conservative or innovative positions because they are such. What is called conservatism today (the economic and social right) is nothing but a collection of positions that fit what existed in the past, but the reasons for them are not necessarily conservative. One may claim that those positions are correct or more reasonable in themselves. But, as noted, that is not conservatism. Conservatism is arguing for them only because that is how things were in the past. But that is precisely where the problem lies.
A person ought to form a position according to what seems right to him. When two possibilities for action stand before me, or two ideological paths between which I must choose, what I am supposed to do is think and decide which of them is preferable in my eyes, whether conservative or innovative. It follows that both the conservative and the innovator are in fact using non-substantive considerations to form their positions. One chooses the conservative path because it is conservative, and the other chooses the innovative path because it is innovative. What they have in common is that they are not weighing the substantive considerations.
It seems to me that I once wrote here that a halakhic decisor should be neither conservative nor innovative and original. He should determine Jewish law according to the best of his understanding and according to what seems right to him. If he determines a halakhic position because it is conservative or because it is innovative, he betrays his role. This does not mean that there is no conservative or innovative decisor. Of course there is. My claim is that this consideration should not take part in the halakhic decision itself. Let researchers come, study the rulings of that decisor, and determine whether he is conservative or innovative. That is their job, but it has nothing to do with his own considerations.
The arguments in favor of conservatism are usually based on social stability and on the claim that the accumulated wisdom of generations is probably preferable to new ideas. But no one can seriously claim that these are sufficient criteria for adopting any position. At most, if I am in doubt, one may recommend on the basis of these considerations that I remain conservative.
In my book Emet VeLo Yatziv I defined fundamentalism as a conception that does not subject itself to the test of critical thought. A person who adopts a position not because of arguments on the merits but because of its general character and its relation to other positions is also a kind of fundamentalist. He adopts conservatism or innovation merely by virtue of their being such, just as the Muslim fundamentalist adopts the caliph's position, the New Age adherent that of the alien (with whom he communicates), the Hasid the position of his Rebbe, and so on—and all this only because the caliph/Rebbe/alien said so, without subjecting it to the test of critical thought.
Is There a Dispute Here?
In light of everything said thus far, I actually suspect that among the supporters of conservatism who participated in the conference there are no people who advocate adopting views merely because they fit what existed in the past (I shall call this fundamentalist conservatism). Those among them whom I know are clear-headed people, and therefore it is reasonable to assume that the term conservatism there appears in its clear-headed sense. Clear-headed conservatism serves to negate another notion: preferring the new and disparaging the old just because it is old. The goal of the clear-headed conservative is not to recommend the non-substantive adoption of positions, but mainly to oppose ideological innovation, that is, automatic disparagement of the old. He argues that it is worth examining the existing position too, and not necessarily adopting a new one. The old is not always stupid, he argues against the innovators.
If you look at the conference program, you will see that it is a collection of topics not necessarily related to one another. This would seemingly lead to the conclusion that it really is fundamentalist conservatism, for there is no principled reason why a person who believes in the ideas of a market economy must also oppose postmodernism and endorse a national and conservative culture. Only someone who clings to what was because it was in the past adopts all these positions as a package deal. But as I said, from my acquaintance with the people involved, it seems more likely to me that these are people who reached their conclusions on the different issues for substantive reasons, except that in the end they all found themselves in a situation in which the position that seemed right to them was the position that existed in the past, and thus the conservative movement, in whose framework the conference was held, came into being. As stated, my assumption is that this is clear-headed conservatism (which in fact is not really conservatism).
If we examine the other side of the coin, we will find that the situation there is similar as well. I do not know an intelligent person who advocates innovation for its own sake, that is, for whom the very newness of a position is a sufficient reason to adopt it. This is senseless fundamentalist innovation. A clear-headed innovator will tell you that his goal is to push back against conservative mental rigidity. He seeks to get people to consider new paths, and not always cling to the old. He will argue that conclusions should be formed in light of substantive considerations and that one should not recoil from something new. But our clear-headed conservative should agree to that as well.
If so, fundamentalist conservatism and fundamentalist innovation can indeed battle one another. But these are two rather foolish positions, and therefore not especially interesting to engage. By contrast, clear-headed conservatism and clear-headed innovation are actually saying the same thing, only in opposite words. Both propose examining each position on its own merits and not becoming fixated on the old or on the new—exactly what I, too, would propose. So now I wonder what the purpose of the First Israeli Conservatism Conference is: if indeed it is clear-headed conservatism, as I assume, then there is no principled difference between it and clear-headed innovation. It is hard for me to assume that the purpose of the conference is to say that in cases where we have no considerations for preferring an innovative or conservative position (= an intellectual or value-based tie), we should adopt a conservative position. Such cases are rather rare, if they exist at all, and are not really worth dedicating a conference to.
The unavoidable conclusion is that the purpose of the conference is to present clear-headed conservatism as an alternative to innovation. But clear-headed innovation is a position almost identical to clear-headed conservatism. Therefore it seems that the conference is meant to oppose unreflective innovation (that is, fundamentalist innovation). It is a conference whose whole point is to argue that one ought to consider the old positions and not automatically prefer the new ones. But by the same token, when the First Israeli Innovation Conference is eventually held, I assume it will present the opposite picture: its purpose will be to fight unreflective conservatism and present a clear-headed innovative position. That is, it will call upon us to consider new positions and not cling to old ones. But as I explained, these two are identical positions.
Either way, the conclusion is that one should be clear-headed—that is, one should weigh all the options seriously and on their merits, and not surrender to a priori, non-substantive dictates, whether innovative or conservative. In other words, one should not be a fundamentalist. It seems to me that there is no great novelty here (our sages already said this long ago: it is better to be young, healthy, handsome, rich, and wise than old, sick, ugly, poor, and stupid). But that does not help me understand why such a conference should be conducted under the banner of conservatism (or innovation). If one really wants to hold such a conference, the clear-headed conservatives and the clear-headed innovators could gather together and hold a conference in favor of clear-headedness and substantive judgment, and against uncritical fundamentalism. I am entirely in favor, though I must say that even this sounds a bit trivial. Of course, one can take various examples and point to different failures of thought concerning them, and propose clear-headed alternatives, ancient or new. Either way, I do not see the point of a conference on conservatism.
For some reason, the conference on conservatism arouses in me the same feelings as the discussion about integrating Maharats with a rabbi in the spiritual leadership of a community. Not only because both reflect a strange conservatism (clinging to the old only because it is old), but mainly because, on second thought, it is clear that both arouse a nonexistent problem, both invent a term (Maharatit, or conservatism) in order to sidestep it, and then both hold a conference to devise a way to solve it (what to do about the dreaded innovators, or how to integrate the Maharatit with the rabbi). These discussions are nothing but churning butter. What is there to discuss? Just swim upward and do what you all believe in.
[1] So as not to leave the page blank, I will comment on the designation "HaRaL" that has been increasingly bandied about in our circles. In my poverty of understanding, I do not see what is wrong with "Rabbi Lichtenstein". Were I not afraid, I would say that his students decided to memorialize him with the initials RaL, apparently in the hope of granting him a place in the pantheon of the transmitters of tradition, for he is no less than Rabbi Shagar, the Ran, the Rashba, and Maimonides (although one can distinguish, since in Rabbi Shagar's case that abbreviation was the family name he himself used). Forgive the pettiness, but I really do not like maneuvers of this sort. Rabbi Lichtenstein was an impressive enough figure even without subjecting him to public-relations tricks. It reminds me of those who insist on referring to some rabbi with the title "Rabbi" (Rabbi Kook, Rabbi Soloveitchik, Rabbi Shmuel Rozovsky, etc.) rather than simply using his name, in order to emphasize that every reader/listener is supposed to understand that this is the Rabbi (master of all Jewry), and none besides. Once again: Haredi public-relations tricks.
Discussion
Regarding the third session at Pastiz"l (the annual study day):
To the best of my understanding, what reached you was not what actually happened,
The conservatism presented at the conference was indeed cautious conservatism (I was there). And the reason that, in their view, justifies raising the conservative flag as a central substantive argument of humility and modesty before the wisdom of tradition and previous generations, is the unrestrained *non-cautious* innovative stance that is widespread today. It is presented as a response to postmodernism, which undermines ancient/natural social orders. In fact, conservative thought was like this from the beginning: Edmund Burke would not have troubled himself to write his foundational work were it not for the French Revolution.
I didn’t understand. There is HaRav, Rabbeinu, and the Rebbe. None of these are connected to “Haredi public-relations antics.” HaRav—there is only one, and of course that is Rav Kook. Rabbeinu—and there is none besides him—Rabbi Nachman. The Rebbe—the head of the Children of Israel, the Lubavitcher Rebbe (as an aside, I heard from Amos Hakham that “Rebbe” is also an acronym for: “evil in the eyes of the Lord”). In Chabad there is also divrei Elokim chayim called “Chassidus.” Chassidus = only Chabad. “Explained Chassidus,” and so on. The common denominator is an attempt to appropriate one figure or one method as the whole of everything.
TL;DR — as I understand it, the conservative movement is not the movement you presented. If I misunderstood the conservative movement, I will retract what I wrote here.
As I understand it, the doctrine of the conservative movement is not a romanticization of the past and of the sages of the past in particular, but rather the principle: “Do not rush to make drastic changes to what works.” That is, if the innovator’s claim is to move in direction x for a distance of 100 steps (toward a wholly good world, so called), the conservative’s claim would be: okay, if in your opinion this is the right direction, let’s try this direction, but let us move a shorter distance, for the sake of testing. If the situation improves, we will conclude that the direction is good and continue to move in it cautiously; otherwise we will not proceed in it. That way we both avoid major damage and ultimately reach the desired goal (or at least the one the innovator would have reached).
One could compare the conceptual difference to the learning method of gradient descent (sorry for the term from computer science), where the conservative’s learning-rate parameter would be relatively low, and the innovator’s would be high.
By the way, this point of view that I’m presenting adds to the discussion other interesting parallels, such as the question of “convergence to a local minimum,” which is a difficulty for the conservative approach. Anyone who wants to get to the bottom of what I mean is invited to skim the relevant Wikipedia page.)
If I understand correctly, then there is no such aspect of fundamentalism here as you described. No romanticization and no suspension of the critical faculty, but rather a cautious use of critical tools.
If your claim is only a semantic precision about their choice to use the word “conservative” (which is perhaps a bit loaded in the sense of “Why were the former days better than these?”), then it’s good that we move on to the next item on the agenda.
Perhaps you meant the Samaritan movement, and then I understand where the fundamentalist label suddenly came from… 🙂
As always, your somber reflections gladden the heart, and as the wise man said: there is no joy like the loosening of the strap.
The story about the Sha’agat Aryeh reminded me of the well-known saying that if the Rema had written in a gloss, “And the custom is not to steal,” no thief would be found among the congregation of Israel.
As for attaching the title “HaRav,” which you described as appropriation: in my humble opinion this is done in good faith. People who are in the orbit of a person of decisive influence truly and sincerely believe that there is none besides him.
When you’re not busy criticizing my book, you write quite nicely.
In the case of the jug and the frogs, the milk does not reach the rim of the jug, but only halfway up, so it’s impossible to swim out, and one can only jump out if it solidifies.
And by the way, this reminds me of a nice definition of conservatism that I heard: someone who said, “By nature I am a skeptic, except that I am skeptical even toward skepticism itself.”
Here is another frog story: a frog tried with all its might to catch flies with its tongue. The monkey was puzzled by this: “There is a banana tree here nearby, full of ripe and sweet bananas. Why is the frog trying to catch flies?!” The monkey concluded to himself: this frog is simply irrational…
And the moral: human beings are animals driven by various impulses, biological and/or psychological. Therefore, to claim that they are not rational is to miss their essence. Of course there is much logic when human beings who are anxious about change join together in order to try to halt trends of change, just as it is logical that human beings with opposite drives (or “opposite tendencies”) will want to promote innovation.
What interests conservatives is not which laws/system will bring maximal economic profit, but which path will bring them maximal psychological profit. (And that profit is obtained from conservatism, of course.)
Laughing at them may perhaps be an amusing hobby, but it misses the most basic principles according to which human beings operate.
An innocent question: is the consideration of “this is our custom” not halakhically valid? That is, if in a certain place the custom was to wear head covering in a certain way, would they have to change just because this was never written anywhere (that is, there is no written source)?
The material reached me before the conference was edited. But the discussion was conducted on this topic (so one of the participants told me). That also makes no difference to our discussion.
About that I said that there is no point in it. It is a war against nonsense, and there is not much benefit in it.
I did not understand why this ancient claim is an argument in favor of conservatism. It is a claim that qualifies skepticism, but both the conservative and the innovator are not skeptics.
If so, the message that emerges from there is not to rush to change when there are no good reasons. Nice, but somewhat trivial. In my opinion they also dealt with—and perhaps mainly with—positions (and defended them), and not דווקא with methodology.
I think that in many cases it is not in good faith.
Meaning: when I write things you agree with 🙂
You probably logged in through his account.
I understand that you were there and saw it? Fortunate are you…
🙂
Now you’ve already set me up perfectly. See the next column.
First, it is not automatically valid. If you have a position against it, then no. And in your words, they would not have to change only because it isn’t written, but neither must they preserve it only because it isn’t written. It depends on your substantive position on the matter.
Second, even if in halakha there is value in preserving the existing state, I do not see why there would be such value outside of it. After all, preserving the custom is not because that is the more correct way to act. See Rambam, chapter 2 of the laws of rebels, halakhot 1–2, where he speaks about changing Torah-level and rabbinic laws established by a court by means of a later court.
Regarding the second half — right, indeed what matters for the criticism of the event itself is the event itself. I meant, in some sense, to defend conservative doctrine itself, and I hope I succeeded in that.
Just a precision regarding the first sentence of your reply — even if there are good reasons, the conservative approach would prescribe proceeding in small and cautious steps. Because this is the setting of policy within a chaotic field, in which a mistake may lead to destruction.
I think that even the move to fuzzy logic that you made here does not really change the picture. Now the question returns to how small the steps need to be. And again this is a quantitative dispute, and you will not be able to draw a line between the conservative (the cautious one) and the innovator (the cautious one).
Rabbi Michi was talking about the situation after the churning. The volume of the milk increases and comes close to the rim of the jug. How close? As close as close can be. Fair enough, before the churning the milk did not reach the rim of the jug, but it was still well above the halfway line of the jug.
Perhaps it is not correct to say that the conservative wants to keep something because it exists, and the innovator wants to change because it does not exist. Rather, the question is whether defining something as revolutionary or traditional (even if in practice the idea is not really such) may be a consideration in the weighing of factors. That is, it is not fundamentalist versus fundamentalist, nor is it a cautious person who happens to be in one place versus a cautious person who happens to be elsewhere. Rather, these are people who have several considerations for their decisions, and the difference between them is what is included or not included in the calculus.
And of course, in both cases, the starting assumption that something being traditional or revolutionary is a point in favor of or against the idea does not stand on its own. It has different underlying assumptions regarding how old patterns of thought and old social arrangements developed, and what the natural path of human development is. But in the bottom line, these assumptions will lead to the conclusion that revolutionariness or tradition is a consideration, but not an absolute one.
Even in this softened formulation I would not see a difference. There is some value in not changing what exists (why replace a winning horse), and there is value in being open to the new. Both sides are supposed to agree to this. And again we have returned to the question of dosages and substantive reasons.
I want to comment on 2 points:
1. The fact that there are female justices on the Supreme Court and the like does not prove anything. These are not people for whom Torah law is of interest, and therefore taking an example from there seems to me somewhat irrelevant…. In “Ahavat Moshe Synagogue,” apparently what Torah law says about appointing a woman to a position of authority does matter……
2. The discussion about a woman serving in the role of community rabbi is not superfluous, and it is also not necessarily a halakhic discussion. There are questions that, beyond the halakhic issue, have additional social and communal aspects that are very significant; and in this case as well, even in a community where everyone agrees that no one raises a halakhic objection to the possibility of appointing a woman to the role, there may be those who, out of opposition to the feminist wave sweeping the religious public, will not like the idea and will think it harmful from that standpoint, even if halakhically it is “smooth.” This is not a superfluous consideration or an “imagined problem,” nor conservatism for its own sake, style of “our grandmothers never thought of this, so why change?” It is a concern not arising from nostalgia for the past but from concern about future consequences of an ideological wave that many fear and oppose.
One can argue whether the opponents are right or not, but their concerns, at least in their own view, are justified and understandable and not “imagined” — at the end of the day, not everything begins and ends only with halakha and the strict letter of the law; there are other important aspects that definitely require discussion.
When I studied at Yeshivat Har Etzion, people used to say “evolution” and not “rabbolution.”
Perhaps Rabbi Michael Abraham has a solution for how to make the move to women community rabbis without “breaking the vessels,” so that our gain does not come out in our loss.
Amir,
I do not agree with either point.
1. There are religious female judges, and we have not heard anyone protesting that. Also female Knesset members and female ministers (including from the Jewish Home party). We are talking about synagogues that have no halakhic problem with this, and therefore there too there is nothing to discuss, exactly as you said about the female judges.
2. There are no such aspects. We are talking about communities that have no problem with this, and if it is clarified that there is no halakhic problem, there is nothing left to discuss. Opposition to the feminist wave is also conservatism for its own sake. One may oppose this or that step, depending on the matter.
Noam,
I certainly do have a solution: appoint a woman. Very quickly they will see that nothing whatsoever will happen.
Rabbi Michael, regarding point 2 — opposition to radical feminism is not “conservatism for its own sake” (it seems to me that you yourself are not among the admirers of radical feminism either—am I mistaken?). This is not opposition arising from “we did not do this” or “our grandmothers were great righteous women and never thought of this,” and the like, for those arguments are indeed conservative. Opposition to feminism, and especially to radical feminism, is ideological and value-based; it is opposition stemming from the view that this is a flawed idea that will eventually dismantle society and the institution of the family. This is not conservatism whose basis is “I do not change anything from what I’m used to.”
And regarding the communities that are discussing this—I am convinced that these are communities in which there is internal disagreement on the matter. In communities that are 100% convinced that this is a proper thing, they will just go ahead with it, and that’s that……..
It is a bit unpleasant to write, but apart from the question whether it is proper to appoint a woman to the role of rabbi, the woman also has to be qualified.
My impression from several halakhic publications by women that I have read is that the level is very low. I would say a level of Talmudic analysis comparable to third-year study in a good yeshiva, no more.
In various fields it is accepted to lower the bar in order to integrate women. I hope they will not do that in Torah. Whoever wants to propose herself for the role of rabbi should demonstrate her strength in learning, in analytical ability, and of course along with good breadth of knowledge. It is not enough that she be considered knowledgeable relative to women, who generally do not study more than faith or practical halakha.
And what about the many rabbis whose level is even lower than first-year study in a small yeshiva—does that bother anyone?
In any case, according to what you say, if there were a woman at a higher level than a man, you would admit that there is no preference for the man over the woman, but the opposite.
You assume that yeshiva-style analytic learning is part of what is required of a community rabbi, and I am not sure that is correct. There was once a column about this by the rabbi (who, if I remember correctly, thinks differently from me).
Sane conservatism is simply recognition that there is a status quo, and whoever wants to remove something from its holder has to make an effort. There is no contradiction here to progress; in my view, on the contrary: it is very hard to make progress when one is constantly occupied with undermining or defending basic assumptions.
Avi,
I do not mean specifically abstract pilpul in formal categories. I mean a good level of analysis, which is expressed in learning. Without that, in my opinion, one cannot issue rulings properly.
Boaz,
It bothers me very much. I hope it bothers you too.
Fair enough, if she is at a high level, and will not seek only to clash over issues concerning women, she will be preferable to a male rabbi.
Rabbi Soloveitchik of the U.S. once wrote that the halakhic issue of the partition in the synagogue bothered him less than the religious direction toward which the advocates of abolishing or lowering the partition were pulling
I do not quite understand what you found difficult here?
Today, the opinion that fits views from the past, commonly called “the conservative opinion,” is regarded as an unintelligent opinion, and in the broader world people react to it with contempt.
So I assume the conference was held in order to encourage the “conservative views” and show that they are not alone, but that a broad public of educated intellectuals stands behind them.
I am neither among the admirers of radical feminism nor among its opponents. I relate to arguments, not to labels. I have no problem with its radicalism, only with its arguments. Opposition to radicalism is unreflective conservatism, just as opposition to conservatism is unreflective fundamentalism.
As for the communities, in my opinion that is not the situation. These are communities for which it is clear that this is right, and they simply are not succeeding in assimilating the novelty involved. So one simply has to explain to them that there is no problem with it, and that’s it—not churn milk into butter.
Completely correct. That is what I wrote in my article in Makor Rishon, and I took flak for it. My claim here is on the principled level regarding women who are worthy of it, if there are such.
Hello Rabbi, regarding your comment about Rabbi Lichtenstein: after all, Rabbi Judah the Patriarch was also called “Rabbi.”
Was he Haredi?
What are you talking about? If you want to ask something, please explain in detail.
You wrote that they call him by the title HaRaL and that in your opinion that is not good, and likewise all the titles regarding Rav Kook, Rav Shmuel, and others, whom people call “HaRav.” And you said that this is a Haredi phenomenon, as I understood it.
My question is: after all, we see this also with Rabbi Judah the Patriarch, who was called “Rabbi,” and in other places too, so it may very well be that this is simply a matter of honor and not necessarily an attempt to present him as a supreme holy figure elevated above other rabbis.
What is the problem with HaRaL? What did I write about that?
I remember my criticism of a generic title like “HaRav,” especially when it is said not within the study hall of that particular rabbi but before a general public. In such a situation, it usually comes to express the superiority of the rabbi in question.
“Rabbi” is a bad example, because he really was superior to all the sages of Israel, and this was agreed upon by everyone.
Ah, I understand, thank you. And regarding HaRaL, look at your bibliographic note to the column, or whatever it’s called.
I just read it now (I no longer remembered; it was many years ago). Just a feeling, because during his lifetime they called him Rabbi Lichtenstein. Now I thought that perhaps it happened because his sons too are already called Rabbi Lichtenstein…
His friends were already calling him ShaGaR back in his high-school yeshiva days (and thus we were privileged to have “ShaGaR—within himself he dwells as a stranger”). As for HaRaL, summaries of his lessons by his admirers already 25 years ago appeared under the title HaRaL. This is not a matter of public relations but of Hebraizing and abbreviating his family name out of admiration for him (perhaps the mountain that if one climbs it one reaches God without needing to churn).
As for the conservatism conference, this is the counterweight coming from the school of Yoav Sorek, who is in charge of the journal Shiloach and receives funding to disseminate his teachings and those of his colleagues. I convene conferences, therefore I exist.