Q&A: The Leap from Morality to Torah
The Leap from Morality to Torah
Question
First of all, many thanks for the debate with Yaron Yadan; it seemed he was surprised by your line of thinking and the arguments. Toward the end of the discussion you said that once we believe in God and that He wants something, it is not reasonable that He only wants morality, because if so, He should not create a world that then needs to be fixed, and apparently there is a religious goal that is supposed to be achieved through revelation. My question is: perhaps moral values are also religious values, and that is the purpose of creation (similar to what you said, that the prohibition of murder in the Torah is religious and not moral)?
Answer
This question was already asked today. For some reason I can’t find it right now, so I’ll answer briefly. It is possible, but not likely. If I know the purpose of those values, why assume they have a different or additional purpose? Especially since I have a tradition that tells me that this is the situation. In any case, even if that were so, He would still need to reveal Himself to us and tell us that we should do this as a religious command and not in order to sustain society. One could press the point and say that we could have done it unintentionally, but again, the tradition says otherwise.
Discussion on Answer
1. A categorical imperative too serves to advance society. See column 122.
2. Because He wanted us to advance society by choice. That is also personal advancement.
2. I didn’t really understand the point of advancing society by choice. After all, many times people, through choice, only ruin the world. Wouldn’t it be better to create a perfected world in which people act only with justice and integrity, without free choice?
I wrote that without choice, the actions do not perfect the person himself.
Sorry for the delay in responding,
but what is the purpose of perfecting the person if not a religious purpose?
I didn’t understand.
If I understood correctly, your claim is that after we know there is a God who wants something, you suggest that what He wants is for a person to choose to behave according to morality and values that are embedded in us so that there will be a proper society—and to that you ask: if so, then God should not create a world that then needs fixing.
And to that I asked: maybe God does indeed want us to choose to act according to human morality, and His goal is also religious (rectification of the worlds and the like), and it makes sense that the goal is religious, because if the whole purpose is only to have a proper society, then let Him create a world without choice, where everyone behaves like machines according to moral values. And why is there a need for a person to perfect himself, rather than to be created already perfected, if not for a higher religious purpose?
I hope I managed to explain myself.
I’m still not sure I understood. Are you suggesting that the religious goals would not be different from morality, but would instead be achieved through the choice of moral good itself?
In principle that is possible, but I already answered that above.
You answered above that it’s not likely because we know what the purpose of those values is—to sustain society. But we do not know the purpose of our choosing those values. In other words, the benefit of the actions is known to us, but what is the purpose of it coming through choice if there is no religious purpose in that?
Let me ask a bit differently: nowadays, when we—and even gentiles—choose to act according to moral values, is there a religious purpose in that, or is it only to sustain society?
Both. As Maimonides wrote at the end of chapter 8 of the Laws of Kings. They observe it for a moral reason and also because it is a commandment. If they do not do it out of commitment to the command, then it is not a commandment but only a moral act.
And to say that we know what the purpose of choice is for the perfection of the person—that itself requires explanation. What is the point of a person perfecting himself rather than being created perfected, if not for the sake of a religious purpose?
Why, if they observe it for the sake of morality, is that not considered doing it for the sake of God’s command? After all, the whole validity of morality is because God stands behind it and commands it, by virtue of the fact that He implanted moral values within us. True, it is not a command from the Torah of Moses, but it is a divine command in itself.
A person cannot be created perfected, because part of perfection is the very process of becoming perfected. Search here for columns about that. But there may also be a religious purpose in this.
Morality is not a command of God, but our expectation of ourselves. A command is created only if there is an explicit command. For prohibitions, for example, it is only when Scripture says “beware,” “lest,” or “do not.” Therefore, “And you shall do what is upright and good” is not included in the count of the commandments.
If I understood you correctly, you mean what you defined as the secret of worship: a need on high. Isn’t that called a religious purpose? What is certain is that it is not only for the purpose of sustaining society.
If there is a religious purpose in this, doesn’t that remove one link in the chain from God to the Torah?
1. Not necessarily. Choice can serve for the moral completion of the person, and therefore it cannot serve as an explanation for the creation of man. Better that he not be created, and then there would be no need for his completion.
2. Even if choice could provide an answer to the purpose of our creation, as I wrote, a tradition has come down to us that the mission is different.
I think we’ve exhausted the topic.
1. There are values that we observe not in order to sustain society, as a categorical imperative and more.
2. If the purpose of moral values were only to sustain society, with no religious purpose, why did God give us free choice in these matters?