Q&A: Dishwasher on the Sabbath
Dishwasher on the Sabbath
Question
Hi,
I have a question about using a dishwasher on the Sabbath.
I follow the leniency permitted by Zomet, and I have a Zomet timer, and one of their instructions for using a dishwasher on the Sabbath is to put a stopper in advance where the liquid comes out and to throw the tablet into the dishwasher beforehand.
The reason for the instruction is that when you load dishes into the dishwasher and then close the door, you create a vessel, and then the liquid and the tablet could end up being cooked on the Sabbath.
But when I load dishes into the dishwasher, it is often after I rinsed them in the sink, so water falls on the dishwasher door, and then I close the door, and it is possible that the water will be cooked on the Sabbath.
I thought this was similar to cooking meat with a little bit of gravy, where it is negligible and has no significance.
But I would be happy to hear the Rabbi's opinion on the matter.
Answer
Cooking on the Sabbath is forbidden both without gravy and with gravy. You are talking about heating, and the issue is that with regard to liquid, that is considered cooking. About this it is said that when there is only a small amount of gravy, we do not pay attention to it. It is nullified to the solid food. But here you are cooking everything, including the water. Still, there is room to be lenient because it is an inevitable result that you do not care about, in connection with a rabbinic prohibition.
But I did not understand why you are dealing with cooking the drops of water when the water used by the dishwasher itself is heated on the Sabbath. Perhaps I am not familiar with the mechanism you are referring to.
Discussion on Answer
As I recall, in any case a dishwasher is not considered a normal manner of cooking, just as meat and milk are permitted in a dishwasher or washing machine because that is not considered a normal manner of cooking.
The cooking of the water is done by indirect causation, because the Sabbath timer activates the dishwasher, and the claim is that closing the door is even less than indirect causation. But if so, then the cooking of the drops of water left on the dishes is like that too. That is why I asked why you are concerned about the water droplets and not about the dishwasher water itself. I do not understand why they are concerned about the detergent and not about the dishwasher water itself. Maybe because we put the detergent there with our own hands, whereas regarding the entry of the water we only cause it indirectly.
I do not have an answer. It may be that I should be worried about both.
But if everything here is some kind of indirect causation, then why is there concern regarding the liquid but not regarding the water that comes from the dishes?
As for Oren's claim that there is no cooking in a dishwasher, is there a source for that?
Our rabbi and friends, perhaps one can add that according to Maimonides it is permitted to heat even soup on the hotplate, as I understand it. He does not hold that this is cooking. Yemenites who follow his rulings put soup on the hotplate on Sabbath morning. So maybe there is someone to rely on to permit it, if that is relevant here. I have not gone deeply into the discussion.
We are dealing here with cooking, not heating, and this is not on a hotplate.
I need to look into this more deeply, because there are several points here that are not clear to me. I will only write that from what I am reading, it seems there is basis to rely on a lenient ruling, without expressing my own position.
In my opinion, this is talking about a situation in which the dishwasher will operate in any case, because they disabled the mechanism that prevents it from working with the door open, and therefore the dishwasher water that heats up is irrelevant, because no action was done on the Sabbath that causes its cooking. That is not the case with the food remnants and the tablet if it was not inserted into the dishwasher itself before the Sabbath, not into the door that you closed on the Sabbath. Regarding the food remnants, there are the arguments that one does not want it and that it goes to waste.
Hi Y.V.,
I understand the point about the food remnants, that one does not want it.
But what is difficult for me is that Zomet instructs that the tablet be placed inside the dishwasher before the Sabbath and that the opening for the liquid be blocked.
When I put dishes in the dishwasher they are always wet, because I gave them a quick rinse, and then I fill the dishwasher door with water.
Why is there no strictness regarding that water? Can it also be argued that one does not want it?
I would have expected Zomet's website either to say that there is no problem with the water that comes from the plate for some reason, or to say that one should be stringent and make sure there is no water, and in my opinion that is very difficult, because the average person rinses the dishes before putting them in the dishwasher.
About the washing water itself, meaning the dishwasher's water, you cannot say that one does not want it, because it is heated for the purpose of cleaning the dishes. The food remnants have no purpose at all in being heated or cooked, and it makes sense to use the same reasoning regarding the water left on the dishes, because it is not there for the dishwasher's wash cycle but simply remained from the previous rinse and has no significance from the standpoint of the dishwasher wash cycle, so one does not care about it. The tablet itself is part of the washing process, so it is less applicable to say that one does not want it. You could also analyze that further, but that would take us too far afield.
Hi Y.V.,
I like your reasoning.
It sounds reasonable.
Since I do not have halakhic shoulders broad enough for this, I would be glad to hear Rabbi Michi's analysis.
Rabbi Michi, does he think that Y.V.'s reasoning about the water makes sense?
As I wrote, the reality itself is not entirely clear to me. That reasoning regarding whether one wants it is of course correct. Although it can be rejected on the grounds that the water on the dishes joins the dishwasher water itself, and therefore it is not correct to discuss it separately.
Maybe one can add to all this the concept of work that happens on its own. Then would it be permitted?
Or: labor that is not needed for its own sake, like someone who digs a pit and needs only its dirt.
And meat and milk were mentioned here, and that a dishwasher is not a normal manner of cooking. So maybe there is no cooking here. But perhaps there is still a prohibition of benefit here, because the meat and milk are absorbed into the dishes. Then when one eats from the dishes, perhaps that would be forbidden. And perhaps there is also a prohibition of eating.
Hi,
I assumed that since all the water that comes out in the dishwasher is water that was set to come out before the Sabbath.
Here is Zomet's article on the subject.
https://zomet.org.il/faq/%d7%a9%d7%99%d7%9e%d7%95%d7%a9-%d7%91%d7%9e%d7%93%d7%99%d7%97-%d7%9b%d7%9c%d7%99%d7%9d-%d7%91%d7%a9%d7%91%d7%aa/
There they address the cooking of the food and exempt it with
"both the leniencies of indirect causation and lack of intent with respect to cooking, and also that one does not want these leftovers to be cooked."
Now that I think about it, I do not understand exactly how they dismiss the problem of cooking the water, and why this is different from rinse aid that was not cooked.
Maybe it is because you want the rinse aid to be cooked, so that is forbidden, whereas the water and the food remnants do not interest you, but that is only my guess.
What is the Rabbi's opinion on this?