Q&A: Is a creator more complex than its creation?
Is a creator more complex than its creation?
Question
Hello, honorable Rabbi.
1) When I read the book about evolution, I saw that you reject “Dawkins’s counter-argument” by claiming that it is not true that the creator of a complex thing must be more complex than its creation; that is true only with respect to a random and blind creation, but if there is an intelligent creator, then it is not necessarily more complex than its creation.
I wanted to ask whether there is no logical law / mathematical law / intuition that says otherwise. That is: can any entity create something more complex than itself? Or can a person, in principle, create something more complex than himself?
It דווקא seems reasonable to me that in order to create something complex, you need to have at least the same level of complexity as the product (a nail does not create a carpenter, etc.), yet for some reason the Rabbi does not think so.
2) When atheists argue that adding God means adding something more complex than the universe and that this just complicates the story, how can one say that God is complex? What exactly is He composed of?
P.S. I think it would be worthwhile for the Rabbi to add tags to the site that would group together all the responsa dealing with the same topic, and that way it would be easier for readers to find their questions if they were already asked.
Best regards, Joseph.
Answer
Hello.
A creator needs to have the ability to create that complexity. The question whether he himself is complex depends on his definition and on the definition of complexity. Since it is difficult to say anything about God’s essence, there is no point getting into the question of whether He is complex or not. Even if He is complex (and not according to the accepted assumption that He is simple, whose source I do not know and whether it is correct), since He has no cause or prior ground, the problem of who put Him together does not arise.
The atheistic argument is incorrect because the complexity of something whose existence is contingent requires a cause. But the complexity of one who is his own cause does not.
Discussion on Answer
1) You mean more complex than himself? I already wrote to you that I do not know what a human being’s complexity is. Speak about his ability. A person can certainly create only what he is capable of creating (a tautology).
2) Because the universe and its laws are not their own cause, just as the cat next to me is not its own cause.
3) As stated, I do not know what complexity means for this matter.
1) Yes, that is indeed what I mean. I claim that if we manage to quantify the complexity of the human body, including the brain, and discover that it is a, there is no reason it could not produce another biological body whose complexity is greater than a, since intelligence is not a function of complexity but is something kind of “infinite” like that.
2) I understand. Basically, we look at the objects around us and see that they are not a necessary existence, and therefore we conclude that there is an entity x that is a necessary existence, and that is God. One can view this as an indirect ontological proof: we have not proven by definition that there exists a being that is a necessary existence, but we arrived at such a conclusion in order to stop the infinite regress. Right?
1) If you manage to quantify it, we’ll talk.
2) Indeed.
But that is precisely the claim you wrote in the book against Dawkins—that he reached the conclusion that God is more complex than the universe because of a mistake, since when the creation is not random (when intellect is operating here), the composer does not have to be more complex than the creation. Have you now changed your mind?
That requires clearer definitions of complexity (entropy).
Thank you.
1) So I understand that in principle there is no barrier to a person creating something more complex than himself, right?
2) But then atheists always argue that just as I say God is His own reason, they say the same about the universe and its laws—that they always existed, and it is better not to add an extra link for no reason. What should one answer them?
3) Does a smarter person (not in terms of knowledge but ability) have a more complex brain? Because if not, then one can view wisdom as a kind of prime property of the soul, and then God would not have to be complex.