I don’t understand what the problem is. When 80% of the Jews in Israel are Haredi, there will be no need to separate ourselves, and there will be a Haredi army and proper Haredi administration and equal tax payments and everything else needed. There’s nothing to worry about, and there’s no need for any unique vision (unless someone himself isn’t willing to be Haredi, and then that’s a different problem).

To Shneur,
you don’t understand: what will happen is that Haredi Judaism won’t exist then. Haredi Judaism has to separate itself from somebody. It needs exile. It needs to cast someone in the role of the local lord who can be maneuvered around. The Haredi mentality is addicted to this exilic consciousness. In other words, Haredi Judaism is exilic Judaism in its purest form. One of two things will happen: either there won’t be Haredi Judaism, or there won’t be a State of Israel. The Haredim need a foreign people to rule over them.

In my opinion, you’re just making things up.
Nothing will happen and everything will run just fine.
All the scare tactics are only from people who don’t want to be Haredi themselves.
When we’re the majority, then it makes sense that driving on the Sabbath will be forbidden and similar things, but everything a normal state needs will be the same: army, police, courts, finance minister, foreign ministry — all the same.

I didn’t say things necessarily wouldn’t be fine. Just that Haredi they won’t be. So according to your view, they’ll be a kind of Religious Zionist.

I don’t know how you define Haredim.
They’ll be the sons and daughters of today’s Haredim, and they’ll be in the army and in every role and every job, and they’ll also keep the Torah exactly as before, that’s all.
Just like there’s a Bnei Brak municipality — so what, are the Haredim in Bnei Brak “Bnei Brak religious people”? No, they’re Haredim, and they also take care of what needs taking care of if they’re allowed to take responsibility (that is, on our terms, which first of all means not endangering fear of Heaven).

I’m obviously not talking about observance of Torah and commandments, but about the communal mentality, where no community sees any community other than itself. Do you really think a state can behave like the Bnei Brak municipality? A state needs a national mentality. This “not endangering fear of Heaven” is just an excuse for small-mindedness. What you call “fear of Heaven” is simply shallow Jewishness — preserving communal customs, not something built on a conception of reality. It exists among all conservative societies, from the Indians to the Iranians to Native Americans. Genuine spirituality is for all Israel. Will the Haredim be able to care materially and spiritually for those who do not belong to them? Are the Haredim even capable of coalescing? What unites the Haredim of Bnei Brak is the threatening outside environment (just as what unites the rest of Israelis is the Arabs outside). How will they be able to cooperate without that environment? After all, they have no problem living under Arab rule, and if there are pogroms, the Haredi mentality commands flight, not fighting — so how will they endure then?

They’ll manage and adapt themselves to everything. Don’t worry.
When something is needed, they do it.
When it’s possible without it, then fine, but if a Haredi police force is needed, they’ll make a very good Haredi police force.

That’s what I think, and that’s what seems obvious to everyone I talk to about how the state will be run here when there’s already a Haredi majority.
And you too will do just fine; you’ve got nothing to worry about.

I’m not worried at all and I’m not afraid of it. That’s exactly what I’m telling you. They simply won’t really be Haredi anymore. It will only be semantics. And the future you’re talking about also won’t happen. Apparently the Messiah will come before the Haredim are a majority here — and who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? And that I actually do fear and worry about — the birth pangs of the Messiah. Because before that there will be a war of all against all, from within and from without.

Why would there be a war? Who would fight??? And over what?

For a state to be run properly (which also includes secular studies that everyone would study, universities, and many other things), when the Haredim run it, the Haredim will have to change a central part of their way of life. In effect, they’ll become Religious Zionists.

When everyone is Haredi there’ll be nothing to fear and nothing to separate from. That’s very different from Religious Zionists, who don’t know how to preserve what matters.

You’d be surprised. There will be something to fear. A significant part of the motivation of most of the Haredi public to be strict about observing Torah and commandments is “not to be like those sloppy Religious Zionists.” The moment those people are no longer there and that motivation disappears, they themselves will become — under the influence of the nations of the world — those same “sloppy Religious Zionists.” In other words, I’m claiming that most observance of Torah and commandments among most Haredim does not stem from genuine, mature fear of God. At most, from childish fear of Heaven. And that will shatter the moment they have to come into contact with the rest of the nations of the world (for trade and so on, if they want to continue maintaining a modern state and not become a country like Mongolia or something like that), just as happened with the enlightened Jews. It takes a bit of self-awareness (inner reflection) to see this.

Emanuel is right. The Haredim can run a state — just not a modern state.

When others “run” the state and everything outside is full of heresy and problems, then the Haredim separate themselves and protect themselves.

When there’s a Haredi majority, then the Haredim will indeed run it.
Especially since there won’t be a great need to separate and watch with seven eyes, because everything will be according to Jewish law (maybe people at home will be able to desecrate the Sabbath — I’m not saying they won’t — but outside, it won’t be possible).

And if you think that running a state always goes together with being lax in fear of Heaven and Torah and commandments, then I completely disagree and don’t see any connection.
Is this only in the Jewish religion, or in all countries do you claim that serious religiosity goes together with economic problems?

What is so special about running a state? I really don’t understand what you’re saying.
For thousands of years we kept Torah and commandments despite all the troubles, and suddenly because of running a state we’ll stop???

Running a modern state does not go together with Haredi fear of Heaven (that is, childish fear of Heaven), because this kind of governance requires contact with the other modern states. And then, inevitably, the other nations will be the “outside full of heresy.” So you won’t escape that, and then either the Haredim will become secular or they’ll become Religious Zionists. Or else they’ll once again separate from the other nations and become a backward state (Mongolia). It may be worth it for them, but no person who isn’t Haredi will be able to live like that. Childish fear of Heaven is of course not only the property of the Jewish religion, but of the other religions too (they are even more childish).

???